I'm comming out..

[wilkin250r]

Re: I'm comming out..

Originally posted by dogsdad:<br /> It is immoral and a sin to murder. Therefore, using your logic, making murder illegal is an imposition of morality and religous belief. <br /><br />You are waaaaaay out on a limb here, wilkin250r.<br /> <br />

Not nearly the same arguement.<br /><br />To use the words of our nation's founding fathers, "all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" <br /><br />Murder isn't illegal because it's morally wrong. It is illegal because it is depriving the victim of his most basic right to live . Same with theft. A man has the right to keep his possesions that he has earned. These actions interfere with the rights of other people, and are therefore illegal. Murder and pre-marital sex are both sins, both morally wrong, but only one of them interferes with the rights of another person, and is thus illegal.<br /><br />Murder, theft, rape, all of these actions interfere with the rights of another person. What two people do in the privacy of their own bedroom doesn't interfere with the rights of anybody.

 

[SCO]

Re: I'm comming out..

Wilken says:"because I don't want other people forcing their religion and morality on ME." GradyBob says it in better detail, but this is precisely what many of us are upset about. Just watch tv tonight and count references. Watch any episode of Will and Grace or Qweer eye for the straight guy(man the commentators loved saying that). This way of thinking of gayness as normal and even better(more kind, more gentle, more empathetic people, smarter) is being forced on us and our children, and our youth is buying into it as a discrimination issue. I don't have ill will for the individuals, but they require more than simple acceptance, and if we don't then to heck with us. If I don't believe that lifestyle is good or healthy, then I don't want it promoted as such. It is feminizing our societal definition of what men are. This is a huge change. We as a society are ready to accept them as they are, knock yourselves out, but they need the full seal of approval. They need to impose their morality on us.

 

[wilkin250r]

Re: I'm comming out..

Originally posted by Carphunter:<br />Biologically, physically, morally, and religiously, Homosexual behavior is not considered "Normal". Now there may be "laws" that allow this sort of activity, but that still doesn't make it "Normal" behavior.<br /><br />You are one screwed up individual if you seek out the same sex for an intimate relationship. <br />..........Even animals are smarter than that.

I would ask you, based on biology, morals, religion, what is the difference between homosexuality and masturbation? Niether can procreate, so it must be biologically wrong. Masturbation is considered wrong in the religious sense, or at least it was many years ago, and the bible hasn't changed since then. Yet many people engage in masturbation, I'd even be willing to bet that at some point, every person on this board has. In society today, it is considered "normal" and regulated the same as any other sexual activity.<br /><br />And as far as animals go, homosexuality isn't limited to humans, it has been well documented in the animal world. I refer you to the Bonobo Monkey. Homosexual, heterosexual, incestual, they engage in ALL sexual activity, even so far as a form of prostitution (the females will exchange sex for food) And the bonobo monkey is not the only species, just the only one that pops into my mind. I would refer you to a book written by Bruce Bahemihl titled "Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity"

 

[wilkin250r]

Re: I'm comming out..

SCO, I'll agree with you and GradyBob to an extent. Homosexuality is everywhere you turn, but that's a product of our society. In much the same way as any movement in history homosexuals are trying to affect change, and the only way that can happen is to bring it out, to expose it everwhere. I wasn't personally there, but I bet when segregation was ending, you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting a racial issue. Not too long ago, everywhere you turn was another "liberated woman" burning her bra and demanding equal pay.<br /><br />So yes, you're sick and tired of it. To be honest, so am I. I bet there were a lot of people sick and tired of hearing about racial discrimination. But you're going to keep hearing about it until the views of society changes.

 

[SCO]

Re: I'm comming out..

Yuck. I hope the research for that book wasn't funded by our tax money. That suggests a point though, that humans have the capacity for their societies to plunge into absolute hedonism. We know this to be true from history and cultural anthropology. Even murder is/was perfectly ok in some societies. It is arbitrary,what is /is notacceptable, but all that is required is concensus of the members , and that evolves/ changes over time in exactly the way we see it playing out here. My culture thinks that this normalization is a bad idea. What kind of world do youwant to live in, that is the question.

 

[SCO]

Re: I'm comming out..

A horrendous thought, re M. Jackson, about how he can self righteously stand up and defend himself. He doesn't think he has done anything wrong, because in his world,in his view of right and wrong, it isnt. With that, I'll sign off.

 

[wilkin250r]

Re: I'm comming out..

There are so many arguements that I would like to address, out of respect for those that took the time to type them all out, I don't want to ignore them.<br /><br />GradyBob brought up a very good point. I had stated earlier that I don't want other people forcing their morals on me, but GradyBob insists that is exactly what is happening. The secular portion of society is forcing their morals on the rest of us. Now, there are many issues involved with that, but I'll keep it limited to the topic of homosexuality, because anything else belongs in another thread.<br /><br />My counter-arguement to that is WE ( the religious portion of society) are trying to restrict the actions of the homosexuals. They are not trying to restict us at all. They aren't trying to tell us that we are living in sin, or are deviant. As such, because WE are the ones imposing social taboos and restrictions on marriage, it would be US imposing our views on them.

 

[SCO]

Re: I'm comming out..

Forced out of retirement. A marriage society is more about the society than the individuals. Marriage promotes family, family promotes reproduction. The society prospers for another generation. Gays want benfits and acceptance, but same sex marriage doesn't contribute to society. There is no fundamental reason for or basis for gay marriage because there is nothing produced by way of reproduction from that marriage. This will change at least for women because it will be or already is possible for Women to reproduce without men. I suspect the radical or maybe even mainstream lesbians, with modern science, would like to see the elimination of men altogether in their perfect world.

 

[JoeW]

Re: I'm comming out..

wilkin250r,<br /><br />Just so you know, you're not alone in your opinion. I too am a heterosexual conservative that, quite frankly, doesn't understand all of this objection to the homosexual lifestyle. I do object to the constant barage of sexuality in general.<br /><br />I also agree with blacktie. Because I don't necessarily care for the activity does not make me homophobic. <br /><br />Homosexuality is a condition that a person is born with. Studies have shown that, while in the womb, if a fetus' brain is subjected to too much or too little testosterone, the child will have homosexual tendancies. <br /><br />Of course, there are those who will point to certain rare cases where a homosexual has given up sex altogether and say that it is a choice. Homosexual behavior is a choice. Homosexuality is not a binary switch that is either on or off. There can be varying degrees of homosexual tendancies. As humans we can choose many of our behaviors, but that doesn't make the behavior natural. Many celebate Catholic priests have chosen an unnatural sexual behavior. A homosexual's engagement in homosexual sex is as natural to them as our engagement in heterosexual sex. <br /><br />There are also those who would point to the Bible and claim that homosexual behavior is a profane act. This is, of course, true. The Bible (Leviticus) does so state that a man should not lay with another man. Leviticus also tells us that we should not touch a swine; that adulterers should be stoned to death; and that we should burn a bull because the smell is pleasing to God. Many of the sex acts of heterosexuals (eg. oral sex) are just as profane from the biblical perspective as those of homosexuals. Do these acts not count?<br /><br />Homosexuality is as old as life itself and is also exhibited in the animal world. Because homosexuals tend not to procreate, it usually does not prevale in the bloodline. Perhaps our revultion to homosexual behavior is an ancient protection mechanism designed to make sure that homosexuals don't procreate. <br /><br />Perhaps we'd all be better off if we just kept our sexuality to ourselves.

 

[wilkin250r]

Re: I'm comming out..

SCO: Marriage and procreation, while they can be correlated, are not necessarily co-dependant. Procreation can occur outside of marriage, and likewise marriage can exist without procreation. Animals propogate their species just fine without marriage. True, many do form pair-bonding similar to marriage, but also many species do not, and both types seem to propogate their species just fine.<br /><br />So to argue marriage on the basis of procreation and survival of the species is false.

 

[dogsdad]

Re: I'm comming out..

Originally posted by wilkin250r:<br />

Originally posted by dogsdad:<br /> It is immoral and a sin to murder. Therefore, using your logic, making murder illegal is an imposition of morality and religous belief. <br /><br />You are waaaaaay out on a limb here, wilkin250r.<br /> <br />

Not nearly the same arguement.<br /><br />To use the words of our nation's founding fathers, "all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" <br /><br />Murder isn't illegal because it's morally wrong. It is illegal because it is depriving the victim of his most basic right to live . Same with theft. A man has the right to keep his possesions that he has earned. These actions interfere with the rights of other people, and are therefore illegal. Murder and pre-marital sex are both sins, both morally wrong, but only one of them interferes with the rights of another person, and is thus illegal.<br /><br />Murder, theft, rape, all of these actions interfere with the rights of another person. What two people do in the privacy of their own bedroom doesn't interfere with the rights of anybody.

You are essentially claiming that morality has nothing to do with the laws we make. Your argument is hollow.<br /><br />I am arguing that legalizing a behavior does not make it "normal" or "healthy." We as a society have norms, and it is not acceptable for some group to attempt to force a change on society that it does not want.<br /><br />Homose*uality is a perversion, just as necrophilia and pedo***lia are. Period. I will not roll over and accept it as a legitimate, normal lifestyle, EVER. <br /><br />There are absolutes!<br /><br /><br />-dd-

 

[Carphunter]

Re: I'm comming out..

.....just a thought, but since we were created in Gods image, (if you choose to believe that, which I do), and since God gave us the awesome mental capabilities that some humans are capable of, don't ya think we outta make better decisions than the Bonobo Monkey? Just because this monkey does the things you say it does, that makes it alright?<br /><br />For every gay monkey in the world, I would have to go out on a limb and say there are 1000 that aren't gay, if there is such a thing as a gay monkey. <br /><br />Most species of animals that I have observed seem to be Heterosexual, but of course, there are not any "Bonobo Monkeys" in Indiana. <br />(I have observed many animals in their natural habitat).<br /><br />Wilkin, on this issue, your arguments fall on deaf ears. There is nobody on this planet that can convince me Homosexuality is normal, moral, or acceptable. Some others have said it much better than I will, but, if they want to do this "stuff" behind closed doors, then more power to 'em. When they start having Gay marches, or gay television programs, or they are screaming for gay rights, then I have a problem with it.<br /><br />Keep your immoral, and psychlogically disturbed activities to yourself.

 

[wilkin250r]

Re: I'm comming out..

Originally posted by dogsdad:<br /> You are essentially claiming that morality has nothing to do with the laws we make. Your argument is hollow.<br /><br />I am arguing that legalizing a behavior does not make it "normal" or "healthy." We as a society have norms, and it is not acceptable for some group to attempt to force a change on society that it does not want.<br /><br />Homose*uality is a perversion, just as necrophilia and pedo***lia are. Period. I will not roll over and accept it as a legitimate, normal lifestyle, EVER. <br />

I would respond to three different points. First, while I would agree that morality has had influence on laws, it is not the sole absolute reason. Would you feel comfortable with PETA making laws based on their morality? I know I certainly wouldn't! Likewise, I don't think we should make laws based on my or your morals and impose them on homosexuals. If their activities do not interfere with anybody else's rights, then they should be free to do as they choose under the same restrictions imposed on homosexuality.<br /><br />Second, it is perfectly acceptable for minorities in society (whether racial or sexual) to attempt to change society. It's the American way. Whether the issue be racial, sexual, environmental, or humanitary, smaller sections of society are free to petition to the majority of society for change. Ending segragation, woman's liberalism, the EPA and PETA are all testament to this. I bring PETA as failed example. Society didn't change, we still eat red meat, we still wear fur coats. But that doesn't make their efforts and goals "not acceptable for some group to attempt to force a change on society that it does not want" (although I WILL agree that some of their methods ARE unacceptable)<br /><br />Third, I will agree. Homosexuality is a perversion. But oral sex is also a perversion. There are LOTS of perversions in society, but only a handful are illegal/discouraged. Pedo***lia isn't illegal because it's a perversion, it's illegal because it's psychologically damaging to a child. Bestiality is illegal because an animal doesn't have the mental capacity to consent to sex. Foot fetishes, bondage, voyerism (consentual) are ALL perversions, but all are also accepted. Why is homosexuality the one perversion that's not acceptable?

 

[SCO]

Re: I'm comming out..

"So to argue marriage on the basis of procreation and survival of the species is false" <br /><br />I am not saying survival of the species depends on it. I am getting to what marriage is and its purpose as a human institution. I think the need for marriage and why it came to be a human institution is to keep couples together long enough to raise their children. It is an imposed morality on men and women because face it, our base nature would have us procreating with every female on the planet 24/7. We need the sanction of marriage, the morality of fidelity, the morality of sticking with your spouse even when the going gets tough to have a healthy society with healthy members. Are other plans possible??? sure. Let's not "monkey" around with what got us here on some grand gay experiment. Example: A man cheats on his wife and finds that his friends shunned him. We can all agree that the man needs the correction of his friends. He was judged by them and he may correct his behsvior. "Judging" someones behavior is not a bad thing, it is a normal and healthy habit of humans. Part of compliance, fitting in, cooperation, teamwork, peer pressure. THis discussion is about whether or not same sex union should be sanctioned or considered a perversion.

 

[wilkin250r]

Re: I'm comming out..

Originally posted by Carphunter:<br />Wilkin, on this issue, your arguments fall on deaf ears. There is nobody on this planet that can convince me Homosexuality is normal, moral, or acceptable. Some others have said it much better than I will, but, if they want to do this "stuff" behind closed doors, then more power to 'em. When they start having Gay marches, or gay television programs, or they are screaming for gay rights, then I have a problem with it.<br /><br />Keep your immoral, and psychlogically disturbed activities to yourself.

Carp, please don't think I'm trying to offend you or anybody else on this board. You have the right to your own opinion and morals. I'm not saying that you should go out and embrace homosexuality. <br /><br />Pre-marital sex and pornography are both immoral, and you may personally be against them both. But you would agree that they are acceptable by society? That's the only thing I am arguing, that because homosexuality is a legal activity, and it does not interfere with anybody else's personal rights, it should also be acceptable by society.

 

[wilkin250r]

Re: I'm comming out..

Originally posted by SCO:<br /> "So to argue marriage on the basis of procreation and survival of the species is false" <br /><br />I am not saying survival of the species depends on it. I am getting to what marriage is and its purpose as a human institution. I think the need for marriage and why it came to be a human institution is to keep couples together long enough to raise their children. It is an imposed morality on men and women because face it, our base nature would have us procreating with every female on the planet 24/7. We need the sanction of marriage, the morality of fidelity, to have a healthy society with healthy members. Are other plans possible??? sure. Let's not "monkey" around with what got us here on some grand gay experiment.

I would argue that marriage was first a religious institution. It has evolved into a religious and legal institution, regardless if the couple becomes parents or not. And with the influx of people of other religions, as well as athiests, it has become strictly a legal institution that some (not all) attach religious significance to.<br /><br />Now maybe this goes to my own personal and moral beliefs, but since morals and religions differ, but governing law applies to ALL, I don't think we should impose specific morality into governing law and legal matters. (Like I said earlier, would you be comfortable with PETA imposing morality into law?) As such, I don't believe you or I should impose our own morality into laws that govern people who don't share our same morality.<br /><br />Now I'll head off the arguement before you all jump on me. Yes, I realize that murderers, rapists, pedo***les and thieves all have a different moral compass than you and I. The difference is that thier moral compass interferes with other people's rights, homosexuality does not.

 

[SCO]

Re: I'm comming out..

I agree with the religious to legal institution argument but think it is immaterial. Most athiests I bet have Judeo Christian values which are the norms of our society. Marriage is a great institution. Homosexuals want that too, so they lobby for it and cry discrimination, but it is not about them. Marriage has a fundamental definition, between a man and a woman for a reason. It is about a process(marriage) that evolved in our society that sanctions marriage for men and women because the family is the building block for the society. If that is changed to same sex partners too, then it is no longer marriage, it is something else. If that has to be, then the institution of marriage is finished, meaningless, gone. It might be called marriage, but it won't be marriage. Marriage will be a long lost quaint notion from the days of Camelot. That will be the legacy of the Gay rights movement, The destruction of what we heterosexuals value. Homosexuals wont achieve parity, because marriage will be gone. All they can do is deprive society of it. That's not an infringement? Thanks.

 

[GradyBob]

Re: I'm comming out..

My one post is one based on my firm beliefs in the Constitution. The 2nd Amendment guarentees our rights as Americans to practice our faith free of government interference. Our society is leaping forward on the notion of being tolerant to people, their lives, choices, culture and so forth. We are on a collosion course between tolerance and the 2nd Amendment. Being tolerant ultimately forces people of faith to make choices between their God and the laws and attitudes of society. Tolerance's end means morality and judgement of right wrong will have to cease because nothing will be wrong. If nothing is wrong, then how can anybody practice religion or preach of sin and immorality????<br /><br />I for one only have a problem with gay marriage and the entire gay thing because it will lead to laws based on hate which will impede my being able to practice my faith. My faith does not prohibit gay people from acting out their gayness. But someday gay rights laws could make it a crime for preacher to stand before his congregation giving a sermon on sexual imorrality because we need to be tolerant and fully accepting of a lifestyle. The issue being homosexual inherently runs counter to the Christian, Jewish and Islamic faiths and any future law that claims it illegal to speak out against homosexuality in church will likely be unconstitutional. The tragedy of it the silent majority will again lay down because nobody wants to be percieved as hateful, a biggot or homophobic. <br /><br />The rest of the arguments here I am not concerned with. I am concerned with tyranny of the masses on me being able to practice my faith openly and freely. Becuase I do believe there are moral implications to the lives we lead after we pass to the big trouble free boat in the sky, that each of us will have to answer for life we lead.<br /><br />I am also offended that gay issue is being made equivalent to the race civil rights issues of our past. One, most gay people don't have a problem getting a job, they were never prohibited from voting and while some people took it upon themselves to hurt somebody based on being gay, far more black Americans suffered significantly more than any gay man or women will ever suffer. I have forefathers who fought at Gettysburg for the Union to preserve the union and end slavery. Gay issues are not a civil rights issue, plain and simple. It is insulting to those people who have struggled with this since our nation's inception to make it so. Think about it - how perverse it must be to say that having the right to have homosexual sex and to make it fully acceptable is the same as telling a black child he can't go here or there because he is black. One is clearly a civil rights issue and the other is absurd. Prior to starting my own business, I have worked at three different places who employed gay and lesbian people. We ate lunch together and everybody got along, in part because the people who were gay that I worked with did not throw it in our faces that they were gay and we did not confront them on being gay either. For me it is not the gayness of it all, it is the absolute acceptance and approval of the entire issue.<br /><br />This was fun and I will try to keep my few posts to more important and serious issues like keeping my boat running and costs down.

 

[wilkin250r]

Re: I'm comming out..

SCO: I think I would disagree with you, and we may just agree to disagree. I think for many people, I dare even say MOST people, marriage is not an evolutionary plan to sanction the basic building block of society. Marriage is a personal issue, a commitment to each other, an affirmation of their emotional feelings for each other. People don't get married to strenghten society, they get married to strengthen their own relationships.

 

[wilkin250r]

Re: I'm comming out..

Grady: I sincerely apologize if you misunderstood me. I certainly didn't mean to imply that the homosexual movement is equivalent of the civil rights movement. Far from it. I simply meant to draw the similarities. I would agree with you that they differ greatly in scope and magnitude.<br /><br />But as far as your religion and hate laws, please forgive me because I don't mean to offend you, but I see your argument as absurd, for two reasons, but the absurdity comes mainly from the second reason.<br /><br />First is similar examples. The equal rights issue for women, I'm sure there were many churches that preached the then conservative view that women should stay at home where they belong. That has changed, but I don't believe it has negatively affected your own personal walk with Jesus, I know it certainly hasn't affected mine.<br /><br />Second, you bring up hate laws that could impede your ability to practice your religion. Well, those hate laws are going to be based on intolerance and violence. If that intolerance and violence didn't exist, the laws would not exist. The part I find absurd is: How can you use intolerance and violence as justification for your intolerance? In basic theory, isn't your intolerance perpetrating the very thing you fear?<br /><br />And as for your last comment, your arguements are very well presented, please do not refrain from posting. I enjoy your comments and debate.