I'm comming out..

ebbtide176

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Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
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Re: I'm comming out..

count me as totally ignorant then. and i mean that in a good way. skinny, that story really helped me understand the issue better. thanx<br /><br />i didn't want to bring up an old thread, but i wanted to thank you for sharing it.<br /><br />personally, i still have problems with the healthcare aspect of this, and the use of the legal def of marriage. let them get a legal union though, i've never had a problem with that, but we really need to get over changing the marriage ceremony, and work out details on whether society has to bear the burden of this lifestyle, in terms of the healthcare burden. maybe its already there, similar to the diff fees for tobacco use vs none-tobacco use, and previously defined health conditions :)
 

Skinnywater

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Mar 7, 2002
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Re: I'm comming out..

Isn't some serious reflection required from you enlightened souls?
Sure.<br />And it's probably going to take a few who aren't to become parents or grandparents of a gay child to become enlightened.<br /><br />I'm becoming more enlightened all the time.<br />For instance;<br /><br />Gay men who want to be scout masters aren't accepting responsibilty for thier sexuality.<br /><br />Same for gay couples who want a "traditional" marriage.<br /><br />Morality is often used as an excuse for people to stick their nose where it doesn't belong.<br /><br />This country isn't able to survive with much more division.<br /><br />It's hypocracy for politicians to preach morality.<br /><br />If Jesus were to return tomorrow, it wouldn't be as a Christian of today.<br /><br />Characture means much more then color, creed, religion, political beleifs or sexual preference.<br /><br />Accepting responsibilty, leading productive and useful lives, staying within the law and respecting others, earns you the right to live life as you choose.<br /><br />So much more enlightenment, so little time. :)
 

POINTER94

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Oct 12, 2003
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Re: I'm comming out..

Gees Louiees,<br /><br />Let's get to it. What is marriage and why are there benefits from the government associated with it?<br /><br />Marriage is/was considered an assest to the growth of the country cuz it typically resulted in little taxpayers and workers. Thats right-births; impossible to do by a homosexual relationship. <br /><br />What was the condition of the American family when death benefits, survivor benefits, health care benefits, tax deductions and exemptions, were put into place? A SINGLE breadwinner family. Father at work mother at home or maybe a part-time job, she produced and raise children at home. She, the mother is at an economic disadvantage and it was to the benefit of the children to support them economically and foster the production of more of them. The mother now has little work experience, financial stability, etc, while performing lifes most important job. So benefits were provided to ensure her security and wellbeing and recognition of contribution.<br /><br />Present day, we have marriages not specifically directed at the proliferation of humanity or for the benefit of the country, (not necessarily a bad thing) rampant divorce without reason or consideration of those who will suffer, sex without consequences, and a sense of entitlement for a cradle to grave life of free food, cars, money, housing, education, etc. But they are still the primary and BEST means of producing little taxpayers. To remove the benefits afforded those families who still adhere to the traditional way of raising children would be politically intolerable. So the traditional benefits remain in place.<br /><br />Enter a homosexual relationship. THEY CANNOT PRODUCE CHILDREN. At best they can purchase them and if they can do that, we have already lost our compass, but that is another issue. Throw out your theorhetical "IF" as it is fantasy, and apply your legal arguement then it is not a slippery slope, we have fallen off the cliff. You have NO defense against muliple marriages, 3-4-5-40 wives or as many husbands or partners or a mix of both, incest, and all the other vile iterations we intolerant types call immoral. No age protection, as that is an arbitrary age and just like the drinking age can be adjusted as the "tolerant" types see fit. Who is going to pay for all these 10 or 15 wives benefits? This works ok in a communist country or is workable in a socialist country but impossible in a free market economy. The government isn't intended to or capable of supporting every person in every aspect. It is on the way as the communists take over this country one step at a time, but as long as the constitution is in place, the government has a problem.<br /><br />The Right and best answer is to adjust how benefits are distributed to either gay or straight couples and continue to foster the fact that there is as much a difference between gay and straight couples as there are between men and women. Something should be put into place but it will have to be different and specific to the type of relationship.<br /><br />By not realizing the differences and dangers of accepting unnatural behaviors we open ourselves up to the great unintended consequences. The law dictates it. This move will speed our progression into socialism by generations. Entitlements that can't be met without dictatorship.
 

ebbtide176

Commander
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Jan 22, 2002
Messages
2,289
Re: I'm comming out..

skinny ole bud, this country has always been divided, at least in the terms you speak of :D <br />but where else are you gonna get people who admit to being shamefully inept at clear conscience/morals and still be willing to discuss it, and give heartfelt help & offer gutwrenching prayers up for those around them? we will, and as goofy as it sounds, right here on iboats, it gets delivered like the newspaper. LOL
 

Rudderman

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jan 14, 2004
Messages
283
Re: I'm comming out..

Ewww. <br /><br />Thats all I have to say on the subject.
 

NOSLEEP

Commander
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Oct 30, 2002
Messages
2,442
Re: I'm comming out..

Oddjob.. Where the he ll are you.<br />Tell these guys to shut the he ll up! :p <br /><br />There hijacking your thread. :eek:
 

oddjob

Commander
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Jun 19, 2002
Messages
2,723
Re: I'm comming out..

shhhhhhhh! Nosleep....this is a troll, not a thread...besides I have no intellegent comments to offer. Give them all the rope...
 

wilkin250r

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Feb 9, 2003
Messages
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Re: I'm comming out..

SCO, I agree with you that many of the self-proclaimed "enlightened souls" are not truly as enlightened as they would like to believe, and are often hypocritical and close-minded. <br /><br />Argumentum ad Hominem, Latin for "argument to the man". Just because their methodology and integrity are questionable doesn't necessarily mean that their goal is wrong.<br /><br />You claim that marriage exists to strengthen the family, the very fundamental building block of society. I agree and disagree. Yes, marriage DOES strengthen the family, but that is not the sole purpose of marriage. The basis of marriage is commitment. It does not legally impose fidelity, nor does it automatically guarantee procreation and survival of the species. The whole of society is not precariously perched on this single man-made institution. <br /><br />As stated before, marriage is about commitment, about one person pledging themselves and their resources to another. It is a public expression of their feelings and loyalty to each other. It carries with it certain legal privileges and obligations.<br /><br />Society will not crumble if a small percentage of the population is allowed to marry a person you or I find morally objectionable. That same argument was made during the movement for equal rights for women, that if women are not home raising children, the family would be gone and society would crumble. Gay marriage does not reduce your legal privileges and obligations one bit. It would not make all marriage meaningless and void, in fact with the divorce rate as it is, many would claim that marriage is already meaningless. Gay marriage should not reduce your feelings for your wife and your commitment to your family. Gay marriage will not make any man more likely cheat on his wife, get divorced, or leave his family. The fundamental building block of society still exists. I don't see how the legal privileges of a small portion of society will drastically change that.
 

SCO

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Re: I'm comming out..

Well, this is where we must agree to disagree. I believe it will have a profound impact on society in ways that we cannot yet comprehend. This is huge. That's why I also object to blindly and self righteously traveling down this road. For the record, to be more precise, I am not saying marriage exists to do a specific task( though it does), it evolved as an institution around the family, a sanction to couples starting families, a sanction to a man and woman entering life together to build the next generation. I'm saying that's what marriage IS. That's history. This was not discrimination, because gay people could not reproduce. It wasn't the straight peoples fault that biologically similar people could not participate in reproduction. Everything else, the long term bond needed to get a human child to adulthood(longer for humans than for any other creature), need for fidelity, love, pleasure of sxx, exists for and only for reproduction. Is that not true??? So marriage is first and formost about reproduction. Conclusion: It is not discrimination that gays are not included in the definition of marriage. This doesn't mean I am not sympathetic to their plight, they have all the human needs and feelings, but the purpose for those needs and feelings, reproduction, is not available to them. You don't fix that in my view by saying that marriage is no longer about reproduction. You don't quell their anguish by depriving society of its most fundamental institution. To change it takes away it's fundamental meaning and function. This is why many talk about civil union. To change the definition of marriage abolishes it because you can't take away the core and still have the same thing regardless of what you call it. It then becomes about the people themselves and their personal relationship, love, fidelity, bond etc. That puts the cart before the horse because all those things are there for the function of reproduction. To redefine marriage by excluding reproduction as its fundamental meaning makes it meaningless, hollow, obsolete, selfish. This would be the ultimate legacy of the "Me" generation.
 

wilkin250r

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Re: I'm comming out..

I agree with the history and evolution of marriage. But in my opinion, I don't think the LAW can look at it the same way. They can't look at the original intent or history, the legal system has to look at what marriage is NOW, in strictly legal terms. Marriage defines a set of legal privileges and obligations.<br /><br />Now, enter civil unions, with the same legal benifits as marriage. Basically, it IS marriage, without the term marriage. Doesn't this seem like the perfect solution? It's just a name, after all, it has all the same legal benifits.<br /><br />But then, ask yourself. Would you be content to have your marriage changed to a "civil union"? Why not, if it's just a name? The answer is that it's NOT just a name. It's more than that. The term "marriage" is a romantic notion, implying love, honor, and commitment. Here is a group of people that, in my opinion, firmly believe in the romantic notion of marriage more than heterosexuals. I would imagine the divorce rate for homosexuals to be much less than heterosexuals. They don't want to be "civilly unionized", they want to be married.<br /><br />And just to close my comments, I'll reiterate. I don't think the legal system should look at tradition and history when determining law, nor should they look at morality and religion. The legal system needs to look at what the definition is NOW, in strictly legal terms, and make a descision based on that.
 

SCO

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Re: I'm comming out..

Might as well call it something else for everybody, because it will no longer be "marriage" as we know it. If you have "Mom's apple pie" and then redefine the ingredients to have strawberries , do you still have Mom's apple pie? No. It would be a sham to call it Mom's apple pie. People a hundred years from now would think apple pie also included strawberries and always did. The problem with changing the name to reflect the change in definition would be to alert the sleeping masses that something big was occurring. I think that should be a requirement same as full disclosure is when you sell a property. Marriage still has its traditional meaning to a great number of people in this country and legally occurs between a man and a woman. People don't get married for legal reasons, and for those that don't work for corps, it has always cost more because you're in a higher tax bracket if she works.It still is about family and reproduction and sanction of male and female couples...for now.
 

wilkin250r

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Re: I'm comming out..

I think that has been tried once. Seperate but equal, right? You have your own section on the bus and your own drinking fountain...
 

SCO

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Re: I'm comming out..

You make a compelling sounding point, but from another look, Gay's can't get on that bus, and they cant drink from a fountain cause they are physically incapable of it, so we have to all get out and walk and can no longer use drinking fountains??? I guess we should wheel around in wheelchairs too because it wouldnt be fair for us to walk when some are paralyzed. Why can't the gay community understand and have respect for this institution instead of feeling left out? They cant have children naturally so they will always feel left out, even if all the rednecks give them a big ole bear hug and come to the wedding. YOu are breaking me down though, so I proclaim on behalf of all married people to redefine marriage to include gay people, but we will have to preserve our understanding that marriage is about children and family, like it always has been, and that gay people can't have that even though they are married too. I'm sarcastic and serious here. I had lesbien couple as neighbors, and accepted them as a couple. But, what they had was different than what I and wife had wrt children. Now that we have had them, we think it is almost the entire purpose of life, certainly the most important to me. I'm going to help you out here, hetero couples that choose not to have kids. Are they really married? Answer is they fall under the presumption of being family starters or changing their minds, and get a pass. What about sterile hetero couples? Same type of answer...they'd be grandfathered in cause we're compassionet people and nobody knows their circumstance anyway so's it doesnt undermine the concept of marriage, we presume they wanted kids but couldn't have them. But no doubt about it, there is some gray area there, but if you redefine marriage, the concept of it is undermined and eventually lost with time, changing from being about kids and family to being about personal fulfillment. We heteros and society would lose the meaning of it unless that meaning is preserved by winks, nods, clairifications of the "hetero" meaning of marriage as compared with the "gay" meaning of marriage.
 

oddjob

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Re: I'm comming out..

Seperate but equal, right?
Wont be equal if theres a divorce.....allimony is a beach aint ya know...<br />And who get the kids when a gay marraige splits? Which one would the court side with now? <br /><br />I'm almost willing to allow the gay marriage just for the comedy provided. Heck it may pave the way to true equality in the way custody,assets and allimony are distributed in the homophobe marriage type. :cool:
 

NathanY

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Mar 16, 2002
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Re: I'm comming out..

I hate everone that is not me, does that make me intolerant? Men, women, old people, young people, whites, blacks, asians, indians, martians, cling-ons, homo's, lesbians, straights, rich, poor, republican, democrat, independant, and arabs, think that covers everyone, I HATE THEM!!! But I love me very much!! I am soo great. I am the male version of a DIVA.<br /><br />You should all bow down and feel the grace of my presence. You should feel very lucky that I took time out of my day to visit your meaningless, pathetic topic.<br /><br /> :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
 

SCO

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Re: I'm comming out..

Sry there Nathan. I made myself sick too. I'm out. :( Edit on 8/31/04 so as not to revive the thread)<br />From the drudge report, maybe A, Keyes reads iboats???<br /><br />"Keyes Criticizes Cheney's Lesbian Daughter<br />Tue Aug 31 2004 23:04:55 ET<br /><br />Alan Keyes, the Republican candidate for a vacant U.S. Senate seat in Illinois, said Tuesday that Vice President **** Cheney's daughter Mary is a "selfish hedonist" because she is a lesbian.<br /><br />His comments came during an interview with SIRIUS satellite radio.<br /><br />Keyes said: "The essence of ... family life remains procreation. If we embrace homosexuality as a proper basis for marriage, we are saying that it's possible to have a marriage state that in principal excludes procreation and is based simply on the premise of selfish hedonism."<br /><br />Asked whether that meant Mary Cheney "is a selfish hedonist," Keyes said: "That goes by definition. Of course she is."<br /><br />Developing..."
 

cuzner

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Feb 14, 2004
Messages
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Re: I'm comming out..

My 2c.... the thought of 2 guys going at IS offensive. I guess that makes me a redneck. I realy don't give sh... what people do at home though. But they should leave it there.I'm getting the impression lately that the gay rights people are there jamming this stuff down everyones throat to force acceptance. Enough already...... there must be more important stuff for people to fight over.<br /><br /> Redneck,Homophobe Jim
 

wilkin250r

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Feb 9, 2003
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Re: I'm comming out..

Anybody have a problem with civil unions with all the same legal privileges and obligations? Basically, it IS marriage, just under a different name?
 

cuzner

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Feb 14, 2004
Messages
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Re: I'm comming out..

Personaly I have no problem at all with it. But I also respect the opinion of people who do problem with it.<br /><br /> Jim
 
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