If you have high charge voltage, please read

[Shife]

Re: If you have high charge voltage, please read

Hey guys, I also have high charge voltage on my force 50. I thank you all for your postings. I wish that there was a local outlet in Spokane, Wash. where I could buy this regulator. I would like to install this immediately instead of waiting on shipping. Anyhow, I will check connections as well, but it sounds like the regulator is the fix. A quick question, isn't there a way to put a resistor in series to drop the 18 volt down to say 14 or so?

For the price the regulator seems a logical choice. Yes, you could splice in a properly sized resistor to prevent cooking the battery, but you would be reducing the already pathetic charging capability of this type of system to an even more pathetic level.

 

[RRitt]

Re: If you have high charge voltage, please read

For an EE you're really having a hard time understanding this issue.

The reason people are switching to the rectifier/regulator style is because the generic rectifier these engines were originally fitted with is unable to prevent over voltage at high RPM. This is a problem because flooded lead acid batteries will boil off electrolyte in an over voltage condition. This permanently damages a sealed FLA. AGM batteries are a gray area as some can handle over voltage with little issue and others need strict charging voltage regulation. Gel batteries must have very strict charge regulation or they are quickly destroyed.

These posters are not trying to relay a voltage drop scenario to you. They are trying to tell you that their rectifier is putting out 18 volts while running and after a day on the water the static voltage level (engine not running, load should be applied to batt prior to test to remove surface charge) on their battery is through the roof. The water found near the battery isn't because their boat leaks. It is because the over voltage has literally boiled electrolyte out of the vents on their sealed lead acid battery.

how many people go out and run WOT for 8 hours straight every weekend? If you do that then by all means get a regulator. If you go for an hour then idle about for a while a good battery on healthy wiring will not have any issues. Putting in a $40 voltage regulator so that your $35 walmart battery will last 78 months instead of 72 just doesn't seem like a bright idea. That's like buying an extended protection plan from Best Buys that costs more than the TV.

 

[Shife]

Re: If you have high charge voltage, please read

how many people go out and run WOT for 8 hours straight every weekend? If you do that then by all means get a regulator. If you go for an hour then idle about for a while a good battery on healthy wiring will not have any issues. Putting in a $40 voltage regulator so that your $35 walmart battery will last 78 months instead of 72 just doesn't seem like a bright idea. That's like buying an extended protection plan from Best Buys that costs more than the TV.

You are assuming that everyone else boats just like you do. That is a pretty bad idea given the potential consequences.

1. I run AGMs and they cost substantially more than $35.

2. For those who do run long enough to cook the batt, hydrogen gas is released in dangerous quantities as the battery boils off electrolyte. Battery casings can also get hot enough to melt and eventually catch fire.

3. Doing things the right way is always easier/cheaper in the long run.

There is a reason newer outboards have switched to the more expensive regulator style of rectifier. I'm pretty sure if the EEs on the payroll of the outboard manufacturers thought it would be a good idea to save a few bucks by using an archaic square bridge rectifier with no voltage regulation they would.

Would you like to run over some scenarios as to how much damage you're causing by running around for an hour charging 10A @ 18V? Let's assume a battery starting at 95% charge, then subject to a 75A starting load for 10 seconds, then subject to over-voltage for an hour as in your assumption. Lets say the battery is a Deka DP24 (common marine FLA batt) with a 20hr AH rating of 65.

 

[RRitt]

Re: If you have high charge voltage, please read

not everybody is you either. I am in fact a EE from one of the top three schools in nation. If you are a company facing the possibility of a multimillion dollar lawsuit because your microwave oven did not have a label saying "do not use this microwave oven to dry your poodle" then you spend the extra money to put on labels. If you are McDonalds paying out millions because your coffee was too hot then you serve everybody warm coffee. You are arguing that warm coffee is better. Just because everybody serves warm coffee doesn't make it better.

My $35 walmart batteries last for 7 years and I never fry any electronics or get stranded 30 miles out in the Gulf. For me, rectifiers are just fine. They are a simpler device that is less likely to break than a voltage regulator because they do not have any significant amount of heat to dissipate. A dead battery in the middle of the ocean is a much more frightening scenario to me than anything you have painted. Under your scenario a13.5V regulator would have to disipate over 50 watts of heat. That is fairly significant. Have you ever grabbed a 50W light bulb with your bare hands?

 

[Shife]

Re: If you have high charge voltage, please read

I wouldn't go offshore with no voltage regulation and risk frying my starting battery, but hey... I'm not a EE from one of the top 3 schools in the country.

You seem to have this problem all figured out. Good for you. You might want to revisit automotive/marine charging systems and study the various means of voltage regulation that are employed. Perhaps they don't teach that at one of the top 3 schools in the country?

 

[RRitt]

Re: If you have high charge voltage, please read

I wouldn't go offshore with no voltage regulation and risk frying my starting battery, but hey... I'm not a EE from one of the top 3 schools in the country.

You seem to have this problem all figured out. Good for you. You might want to revisit automotive/marine charging systems and study the various means of voltage regulation that are employed. Perhaps they don't teach that at one of the top 3 schools in the country?

dude, i know how voltage regulators are built right down to the molecules. Your argument is nonsense. The voltage regulator is inherently much less reliable than the square bridge. A quick internet search will reveal many photos of burned out regulators. The SBR output is not pure DC. It is a waveform. i would guess that even your 18v example has no more than a 35% duty cycle. The SBR never generates enough heat to stress it packaging - the VR does. Heat causes failure. The idea of improving overall reliability by protecting your battery with a regulator is just not valid. Try something that makes sense. Like saying that the risk of CDI failure is greater. That would be true. The idea of voltage regulator creating a more reliable charging/starting circuit is nuts. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

 

[Shife]

Re: If you have high charge voltage, please read

Perhaps if you turn down the stereo and get over the sound of how awesome you are you'll take the time to actually do a little research and find out why nobody in the automotive or marine industry shares your view of a reliable charging system.

Things have come a long way since the days when vacuum tubes were considered high tech.

I'm gonna have a final few chuckles at your expense and forget about this conversation. Have fun convincing everyone else of your "top 3" expertise.

 

[RRitt]

Re: If you have high charge voltage, please read

Perhaps if you turn down the stereo and get over the sound of how awesome you are you'll take the time to actually do a little research and find out why nobody in the automotive or marine industry shares your view of a reliable charging system.

Things have come a long way since the days when vacuum tubes were considered high tech.

I'm gonna have a final few chuckles at your expense and forget about this conversation. Have fun convincing everyone else of your "top 3" expertise.

The problem is that there is a difference between a charging system and an electrical system. You seem unable to discern the difference. Manufacturers did not go to voltage regulators because it was a more reliable charging system. It is not. They went to regulators because it better protected their electronics.

The base problem is that if you put out enough juice to cook your battery then you are also putting out more than enough to cook a voltage regulator. These little snowmobile jobs aren't going to make anybody's boat more reliable. However, having a voltage regulator does mean that if you unplug the battery then your cdi and depth finder are safe.

 

[Hawgboss22]

Re: If you have high charge voltage, please read

Ok, it seems to me that if my voltage is regulated than I have a good chance that my electronics, not that I have more than a fish finder will be protected with a regulated 14+ volts than with an unregulated 18+ volts. Or the other scenario is that my electronics will protect themselves. Will the high charge voltage have the potential to damage anything else, such as tach, speedometer or any other gauge? Thanks, you both seem to have a valid arguement, however I like the idea of a regulated voltage than a non regulated voltage. However, with that said, the kind of boating that we do is really never running the motor for more than 20 min. at a time, maybe a 1/2 hour at the very outside. Our lakes just aren't that big and we mostly fish rivers that we go maybe 4-5 miles upriver and float down, back and forth all day. Any further ideas?
Thanks,
Bruce

 

[RRitt]

Re: If you have high charge voltage, please read

Ok, it seems to me that if my voltage is regulated than I have a good chance that my electronics, not that I have more than a fish finder will be protected with a regulated 14+ volts than with an unregulated 18+ volts. Or the other scenario is that my electronics will protect themselves. Will the high charge voltage have the potential to damage anything else, such as tach, speedometer or any other gauge? Thanks, you both seem to have a valid arguement, however I like the idea of a regulated voltage than a non regulated voltage. However, with that said, the kind of boating that we do is really never running the motor for more than 20 min. at a time, maybe a 1/2 hour at the very outside. Our lakes just aren't that big and we mostly fish rivers that we go maybe 4-5 miles upriver and float down, back and forth all day. Any further ideas?
Thanks,
Bruce

If you do not unplug your battery with engine running then your electronics are fine.

Bottom line -
rectifiers never break unless you hit them with a hammer
it is not uncommon for voltage regulators to overheat and melt
rectifiers do not protect your electronics if the battery is disconnected
voltage regulators do protect your electronics if the battery is disconnected

Your risk of drifting to Mexico because of a dead battery is greater with a regulator. Your risk of drifting to Mexico because of a fried CDI is greater with a rectifier. Modern engines have so much electronics that the risk is clearly skewed towards the regulator. Very old distributor type engines would be clearly skewed towards the rectifier. Most Forces are somewhere in the middle without a clear right/wrong.

 

[Shife]

Re: If you have high charge voltage, please read

The problem is that there is a difference between a charging system and an electrical system. You seem unable to discern the difference. Manufacturers did not go to voltage regulators because it was a more reliable charging system. It is not. They went to regulators because it better protected their electronics.

The base problem is that if you put out enough juice to cook your battery then you are also putting out more than enough to cook a voltage regulator. These little snowmobile jobs aren't going to make anybody's boat more reliable. However, having a voltage regulator does mean that if you unplug the battery then your cdi and depth finder are safe.

Like I said, I'm done with this conversation. The only thing you've convinced me of is that you didn't pay attention in school.

 

[RRitt]

Re: If you have high charge voltage, please read

Like I said, I'm done with this conversation. The only thing you've convinced me of is that you didn't pay attention in school.

I pay attention to the real world. You can't take a part that never fails and replace it with a part that commonly fails and then claim the system is more reliable. That only happens in your imagination.

If somebody out there wants to install a voltage regulator then just go to the auto parts store and ask for a generic regulator to fit some big american V8 from the 60's or 70's. It will cost about $10 and be rated for 35-50A. Most of the old V8 regulators will have a bypass shunt that keeps your battery charging in case of failure. They usually come in a metal housing with a mounting tab. Bolt the tab onto engine ground. Hook existing rectifier up to input and your electrical system up to output. You're done.

 

[jason32038]

Re: If you have high charge voltage, please read

WOrth a shot.

 

[jason32038]

Re: If you have high charge voltage, please read

I'm going to hunt for a cheaper one lol

 

[ThomasB81]

Re: If you have high charge voltage, please read

Hi..

I have just installed the regulator mentioned in this thread "part# 090".

Before this I burnt two rectifiers and boiled a battery. I redid my connections, installed the regulator, and the voltage dosen?t get above 13,5v at any time. Great

But..
My rev counter acts funny, it never shows above 1000revs and at full throttle it goes to zero. Any idears what could cause this?

My engine is a Mercury outboard 70Hp from 79?.

Thx. Thomas.

 

[RRitt]

Re: If you have high charge voltage, please read

if you burnt two rectifiers then you have some problem other than regulator. Any normal outboard engine is incapable of generating enough electricity to harm a properly mounted 35A or 50A rectifier. I would guess there is something wrong with your mounting and you are melting them via improper heatsink. Both rectifiers and regulators are like computer CPU's. You have to give them a heatsink or they will melt themselves.

 

[ThomasB81]

Re: If you have high charge voltage, please read

if you burnt two rectifiers then you have some problem other than regulator. Any normal outboard engine is incapable of generating enough electricity to harm a properly mounted 35A or 50A rectifier. I would guess there is something wrong with your mounting and you are melting them via improper heatsink. Both rectifiers and regulators are like computer CPU's. You have to give them a heatsink or they will melt themselves.

Hi.

My rectifiers was properly mounted, original spot and rectifier. I am pretty sure my rectifiers burnt cause of bad connection to my battery. Anyway that is not the problem anymore. Everythng looks normal, except my rev counter.

I had no regulator installed when i burnt my rectifiers.

 

[RRitt]

Re: If you have high charge voltage, please read

Hi.

My rectifiers was properly mounted, original spot and rectifier. I am pretty sure my rectifiers burnt cause of bad connection to my battery. Anyway that is not the problem anymore. Everythng looks normal, except my rev counter.

I had no regulator installed when i burnt my rectifiers.

a regulator has to dissipate about 8x more heat than rectifier for same amps which means they melt 8x easier. A bad connection to battery should not harm a rectifier. If you burned out rectifier with a short circuit and sustained over current then you need to be cognizant of possible damages to stator.

 

[ThomasB81]

Re: If you have high charge voltage, please read

a regulator has to dissipate about 8x more heat than rectifier for same amps which means they melt 8x easier. A bad connection to battery should not harm a rectifier. If you burned out rectifier with a short circuit and sustained over current then you need to be cognizant of possible damages to stator.

How can I burn my rectifier with a short circuit, if it is like you say?

"Any normal outboard engine is incapable of generating enough electricity to harm a properly mounted 35A or 50A rectifier"

Shouldn't my stator have burnt instead then?

Anyway. I don?t have any problems with my charging system anymore. It?s my rev counter that is the problem Could this be caused by the newly mounted regulator?

 

[john from md]

Re: If you have high charge voltage, please read

I don't know why it happens but if you switch the two stator wires around on the regulator, the tachometer will start working properly. Since this is AC voltage it really shouldn't matter but I have found that switching the stator leads does make a difference.

Regards,

John