Honda BF130 problems, needs input

[Nicktr23]

Hi, I've been reading a lot from this forum in trying to diagnose my engine problem.
I own the engine for 2 years now. Serial number that is on the engine frame is bzbe 1400469. Looking up the info on the motor, it is a 2003 model so it should not have the problem with cracked head. This boat is mainly used in salt water once a month in Bodega Bay, CA. The last time I went out crabbing/fishing, there was no problem until we were going back in. The engine felt like it was in LIMP mode. No matter how much throttle I give it, the engine would surge. It would go up to 3k RPM maximum, if I go full throttle, the engine would rev up to 3k, drop down to 2k and repeat, sometime it would randomly pick up and go past 3k rpm, but only for short burst. In my mind, I'm thinking it must be a fuel related issue, as this happened before and I changed out the low & high pressure fuel filters, clean out the VST, go through all fuel related line and make sure no obstruction or air leak. That seem to helped with the surging.
Thinking that the motor is experiencing a fuel related issue, I pulled the VST again for cleaning and changed out all the fuel filters. The high pressure fuel pump insulator with screen was changed too. I purchased a fuel pressure gauge and tested the fuel pressure and it's sitting around 40 psi. Pulling the vacuum line from the pressure regulator while the engine is idling increases the fuel pressure, which I understand is NORMAL. So I now conclude that my surging problem is NOT fuel related (even though I did all this work, I know it's not fuel related because when inspecting all the fuel filters before they were changed, not much debris or water intrusion in gas).
Since I was doing all this maintenance and remembering that the last time I changed the oil was a long time ago (more than a year), I went ahead and changed the oil. I didn't even think about the oil because the oil pressure alarm/light never signal me to check the oil level. But I know now that I should check the oil level before every outing. Anyhow, there is water intrusion in the oil. The oil is milky gray, latte texture. The oil filling cap, have gray thicker sludge. This is definitely not good. The last time the oil was change, the oil was black.
I changed the oil and ran the engine on muff. The engine started normally and then stall. This is typical start up procedure for me. It normally start up and stall the first time, maybe second time, but after that, it will idle just fine. I normally help it warm up using the warm up lever to increase RPM. Even though the engine idle around 750rpm, it just doesn't feel right. I did the cylinder drop test by disconnecting the fuel injector wire one at a time to see any changes in the rpm. Disconnecting cylinder 1, 2 and 3 injector wire cause rpm to drop, however, with cylinder 4, no changes in rpm. This cause me to to believe, either I have no spark, clogged fuel injector or bad compression. I conduct compression test on all cylinder. Results are cylinder 1 175, cylinder 2 180, cylinder 3 190, cylinder 4 180 (at FULL throttle). So compression are okay, not great, but nothing that would keep the cylinder from missing. Checked spark on all cylinder and they are all good. Check injectors with stethoscope and they are good as well. I did notice however, when doing the compression test, there is definitely water intrusion into cylinder 4. ALso when removing the fuel rails to inspect the injectors, I do see a little water puddle.
Sorry for the long post, I just wanted to give all the information.
So in summary, I have water intrusion in cylinder 4 and water in my oil. Does this mean I should pull the head cylinder and hope it is a blown head gasket? The metal material head gasket is protruding in the port side of the engine. I'm attaching photo. Im also thinking there can be a crack somewhere?? What should I do? Should i remove the head cylinder to explore? OR what do you think my problem could be. I just don't understand with water in the oil, and water in the cylinder, why the engine can still run 4-5k rpm. IT's definitely sporadic though.

 

[ahicks]

I would pull the head and have a look around. You want to check very closely the areas where the gasket seals the cylinder to the head around the bore. Both sides will (head and block), on occasion, corrode to the point where the gasket can no longer seal. There's nothing there!

If the engine has been overheated, that can easily damage the head gasket to the point it will no longer seal as well. In this case, the fix is generally a very careful cleanup of the surfaces that contact the gasket, along with a new gasket. You'll be back in business like nothing happened.

 

[Sea Rider]

4 Strokes motors tend to make oil, that's increase the level with water while mixing with the crankase oil, not salt water though. It's due to water condensation inside the crankcase.

Probably there's an overheat issue going on on the crankcase and the heat sensor repetitively triggering into slow mode as a protection ?

That head gasket is shot, clean all mating surfaces well and torque gaskets to specs, retorque it after say 5-10 run hours. Take advantage to check how much salt layers, crusts the motor has collected through the years running in salt water. Check the exhaust cover's gaskets if having one and the base gasket as well. If found with white salt lines retorque them to specs.

Marine motors should have their crankcase's gaskets retorqued to their factory specs soon aftet the break end period ends, but none does so, that's when the salt begins to accumulate in those mentioned gaskets which have ceded a bit and contributes in the long run to salt seize any bolt located on the crankcase.

Happy Boating​

 

[MattFL]

When you removed the #4 spark plug, was it very clean? Often if you get water intrusion and it goes for any length of time, the water will steam clean the cylinder, so that piston and spark plug will often look unusually clean. If you're getting water intrusion then you need to figure out where it's coming from, so removing the head to take a look would be a first step. The "making oil" thing must be regional as it's not a common problem here in S. FL where the water and weather are warm, except for motors that idle all day. I could see it being a problem in places where the water and weather are cool. For example, it's now January and it's about 80F outside and the sea temp is 76F. Also if your oil is normally black then that would further make me think the problem is from water intrusion.

 

[ahicks]

4 Strokes motors tend to make oil, that's increase the level with water while mixing with the crankase oil, not salt water though. It's due to water condensation inside the crankcase.

Probably there's an overheat issue going on on the crankcase and the heat sensor repetitively triggering into slow mode as a protection ?

That head gasket is shot, clean all mating surfaces well and torque gaskets to specs, retorque it after say 5-10 run hours. Take advantage to check how much salt layers, crusts the motor has collected through the years running in salt water. Check the exhaust cover's gaskets if having one and the base gasket as well. If found with white salt lines retorque them to specs.

Marine motors should have their crankcase's gaskets retorqued to their factory specs soon aftet the break end period ends, but none does so, that's when the salt begins to accumulate in those mentioned gaskets which have ceded a bit and contributes in the long run to salt seize any bolt located on the crankcase.

Happy Boating​

While Sea Rider may be well intentioned, please, do not attempt to "retorque" a Honda 4 stroke head. I'm not sure if all are done this way, but some of these head bolts are brought to a specific torque value, then you add 1/4 turn to the torque wrench, increasing that initial torque by an unknown value. This leave you with absolutely no way of knowing what value to "retorque" to. Further, to my knowledge, there is no good reason to believe this procedure is necessary on these engines. Bad plan.....

 

[MattFL]

What @ahicks is referring to is called a Torque To Yield (TTY) bolt. You torque it to some specific value, THEN turn it an additional "x" turns past that point. At this point the bolt actually stretches, intentionally. These bolts cannot be re-torqued or re-used. Some engines use these, others don't, the info would be in the service manual for the engine. So before you re-torque (or re-use) any head bolts, you first need to figure out if they are TTY bolts or not.

Torque-to-yield (T‑t-y) Bolt Specification & Installation

With more vehicles using Torque-To-Yield (TTY) bolts on their engines, it pays to know how to handle and remove them - learn more with Fel-Pro.

www.felpro.com

 

[ahicks]

Thanks Matt. Been working on this kind of stuff since I was a young preteen kid, and now at 70, I had never heard of that. It sounds like something somebody with an engineering degree might say?

That said, shame on me. I've been reusing the bolts since I started working on the Honda outboards several years ago without issue. I'll leave the right or wrong here to others. They can do as they wish. -Al

 

[Nicktr23]

I'll go ahead and start to pull the head. I actually wanted to do this when I first got the engine since the water telltale stream was constantly clogged up at the t joint with salt or debris. But the motor overheat alarm never triggered and so I assumed it was cooled properly.

 

[ahicks]

It may be cooling just fine. Don't jump in with any preconceived notions. Let the motor tell you it's story. Hopefully it'll be clear what's wrong. Nothing worse than getting it wrong and having to do it over again, and then, again! Trust me, it happens!

Best of luck! -Al

 

[Nicktr23]

It may be cooling just fine. Don't jump in with any preconceived notions. Let the motor tell you it's story. Hopefully it'll be clear what's wrong. Nothing worse than getting it wrong and having to do it over again, and then, again! Trust me, it happens!

Best of luck! -Al

Yeah but there is definitely water in cylinder 4. I replaced new spark plugs and number 4 is clean. Will a lil leak of water into the cylinder prevent combustion? But if it's leaking water, why compression number isn't that bad? Hmmm

 

[MattFL]

Thanks Matt. Been working on this kind of stuff since I was a young preteen kid, and now at 70, I had never heard of that. It sounds like something somebody with an engineering degree might say?

That said, shame on me. I've been reusing the bolts since I started working on the Honda outboards several years ago without issue. I'll leave the right or wrong here to others. They can do as they wish. -Al

Indeed I'm a computer engineer, but do my own mechanical work whenever possible. I get a little OCD about details sometimes. If the bolts are not the TTY type then they may be reusable, so you could be just fine. It varies motor to motor and I have no idea if Honda typically uses TTY bolts or not.

Yeah but there is definitely water in cylinder 4. I replaced new spark plugs and number 4 is clean. Will a lil leak of water into the cylinder prevent combustion? But if it's leaking water, why compression number isn't that bad? Hmmm

Enough water could prevent combustion, or maybe the spark plug just got wet. It is possible to have a head gasket leak that holds up fairly well for a compression test but leaks more once the engine is running. Also it's possible that the head gasket is fine and the cylinder is cracked, which may not show up on a compression test if the crack is low enough on the cylinder. Or the head could be cracked in one of the valve pockets, which wouldn't affect compression test numbers. Unless you've got a scope that you can start sticking in places to get a good look, taking it apart is probably the only way to get the full picture.

 

[ahicks]

Get the Honda service manual (NOT owner's manual) for your engine for all the details regarding disassembly, inspection, and reassembly. Seloc manuals are less expensive, but often leave out important details. NOT worth whatever you save over the price of a factory manual. -Al

 

[Nicktr23]

Get the Honda service manual (NOT owner's manual) for your engine for all the details regarding disassembly, inspection, and reassembly. Seloc manuals are less expensive, but often leave out important details. NOT worth whatever you save over the price of a factory manual. -Al

Yeah I found a Honda manual online. Going to tear into it whenever I get a chance.

 

[Sea Rider]

If need to retorque the motor gaskets after the break end period ends must be specified in the Service Manual. With respect to the torquing issues if Honda states to adjust bit passing their initial torque settings, no need to perform a retorque. Whereas when specifying just a timely torque setting say 25 NM, that motor needs to be re torqued back to factory specs. You are free to do so or not.

If having water intrusion inside the combustion chamber due to a faulty head gasket, badly torqued, whatever, the spark plug tip will be found rusty, the more water intake the worse.

Happy Boating​

 

[Nicktr23]

So I was in the process of removing the intake manifold, while removing the pcv tube from the intake, I see gray sludge in the tube. Is this expected because there's water in oil and the oil is gray milky latte?

 

[MattFL]

It sounds like you're just seeing the same oil + water mix in the tube that was in the rest of the motor, which is not surprising.

 

[ahicks]

So I was in the process of removing the intake manifold, while removing the pcv tube from the intake, I see gray sludge in the tube. Is this expected because there's water in oil and the oil is gray milky latte?

Yup, you'll likely see the same stuff in the oil filler cap as well.

 

[Nicktr23]

Yup, you'll likely see the same stuff in the oil filler cap as well.

Definitely saw more sludge there.

Here are some photos after I removed the intake manifold. I knew I had salt buildup, since my telltale would get clogged up when something in the engine is dislodge. But man, I wasn't expecting this.
Peaking in to look at the valves for cylinder 4, i see some surface rust forming. I hope i will be able to clean it up.

 

[MattFL]

That third picture where the block is completely plugged up, that would convince me to try one of the chemical solutions for removing that stuff, assuming you cannot physically get to all of it after disassembly. Get on youtube and look for videos using rydlyme or barnacle buster to dissolve that kind of thing. The chemicals work, the chemistry makes sense, the question is the risk to the metal, especially any anodes in the motor. But in your case, if that were my motor, I would take the chance. The method that makes the most sense to me is removing the thermostat(s) and the lower unit, attaching a small pump to the water pick-up tube, put a bucket under the motor and use the pump to keep the fluid re-circulating around the motor for a while. Here's an example of one of the chemicals working:

 

[ahicks]

3rd picture is the head, which I hope we're already planning on removing. With patience that buildup isn't too hard to remove with the head sitting on the bench. The block may be a different story.

With the condition of the motor now more clear, I'd be wasting no time in getting that head off for an inspection of the sealing surfaces to see what you have to work with. Fingers crossed for you at this point.....