Heeeelp Evinrude 140 again - paging 2KBoat or Evinrude aces

[Neil]

I last posted in June (Joe Reeves helped with some advice) when my 1989 140 V4 looper shed a piston ring. I took advice and had a complete rebuild. A rebore and oversize piston, new rings throughout and a complete set of bearings. I am living in Oman and the no. of mechanics available is limited but the mechanical work seems good.<br /><br />Now I am having trouble with performance and the marina that rebuilt is struggling to locate the problem.<br /><br />After rebuild and 1 hours running in tank, engine was refitted. At the first outing now power available when throttle andanced from idle. Max RPM about 2500 and boat lacked power. Marina mechanics looked at it, couoldn't find problem and decided to take the boat to their workshop. After playing they decided it needed bigger jets because of the rebore. I was sceptical as the loss of power was significant. I think it actually performed better on 3 cylinders.<br /><br />Anyway, workshop was confident and said that engine performed at 5k RPM with test prop.<br /><br />Last night I took delivery and tested again. Exactly the same.<br /><br />Once engine started it continually cut out as soon as I selected reverse to back off the trailer. I managed to back off with marginal power.<br /><br />As soon as I selected forward power the engine would die. I could select forward trawl speed but as soon as I advance the throttle the engine dies.<br />If I go from forward creep to full power as fast as I can I do acelerate forward but only to a max RPM of 2500 but the engine sounds lumpy. If I go from idle to full power slowly then the engine dies.<br /><br />At fast idle the engine sounds smooth and quiet. I have been up to 3000 rpm and no problems with missfire.<br /><br />The engine seems to behave as if the propeller is snagged in a net. Forward and backwards have the same effect.<br /><br />Mechanics are coming out again tomorrow but I don't have a lot of faith at the moment.<br /><br />When the engine was rebuilt the mechanics changed the powerpack as they said it had no power out of the water.<br /><br />Anyone have any ideas what it could be so I can double check what is going on?<br /><br />Help appreciated as always.

 

[sloopy]

Re: Heeeelp Evinrude 140 again - paging 2KBoat or Evinrude aces

sounds like the compression!

 

[MGuckin]

Re: Heeeelp Evinrude 140 again - paging 2KBoat or Evinrude aces

Might have 1 (or 2) cylinder not firing. Motor would still run but not full power.<br />As far as stalling, idle or timing could be just set up wrong.<br />When it was run in a test tank they most likely did not use your fuel tank and supply lines, maybe a problem there.<br />Wrong prop may cause you to bog.<br />When they do repairs, make sure boat is in the water, not on muffs and request that they set it up using the test prop. That will eliminate a possible prop problem.<br />Good luck

 

[Dhadley]

Re: Heeeelp Evinrude 140 again - paging 2KBoat or Evinrude aces

Start with the basics. Visually verify that all carb butterflies are opening to the correct position. Make sure the timing advance is moving to the stop. <br /><br />You said it is smooth at a high idle. What about at (slow) idle? If it is not smooth and/or suddenly quits, I strongly suspect the firing order. It should fire 1-2-3-4.<br /><br />Check these things and let us know.t

 

[Dhadley]

Re: Heeeelp Evinrude 140 again - paging 2KBoat or Evinrude aces

A last minute thiught. DO NOT run it with the airbox cover off.<br /><br />Good luck!

 

[Neil]

Re: Heeeelp Evinrude 140 again - paging 2KBoat or Evinrude aces

Just to update.<br /><br />Same symptoms regardless of fuel input.<br /><br />Mechanics ran in tank with a test prop. They claim 5000 rpm no problem.<br /><br />Ignition timing and voltages checked. Carbs cleaned and re-jetted. Compression good on all cylinders.<br /><br />Engine does not miss when revved or idled.<br /><br />Mechanics did swap the power pack claiming the old one would not give sufficient power. Not entirely convinced -my old one was working OK before the rebuild.<br /><br />I don't know where to start measuring voltages though.<br /><br />Mechanics are coming back tomorrow and we plan to put out to sea.

 

[Hooty]

Re: Heeeelp Evinrude 140 again - paging 2KBoat or Evinrude aces

Like Dhadley said, start with the basics. Do these mechanics have a manual for your engine? Have them do a snyc & link. This will require establishing TDC for timing purposes. Check plugs for spark and wetness (fuel).<br /><br />c/6<br /><br />Hooty

 

[Neil]

Re: Heeeelp Evinrude 140 again - paging 2KBoat or Evinrude aces

Basics planned for tomorrow morning.<br /><br />They do have a manual and they are a Johnson dealer so they should be able to get to the bottonm of this.<br /><br />Just so frustrating having a boat idle. :-((

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: Heeeelp Evinrude 140 again - paging 2KBoat or Evinrude aces

NGriff1.... The clue to your problem (in my opinion) lies in your statement of "I could select forward trawl speed but as soon as I advance the throttle the engine dies." and the statement of "Max RPM about 2500 and boat lacked power." I'll get into that in a minute.<br /><br />Regardless of what a problem is with any engine, and regardless of whether it's just been rebuilt or not, the first thing to do is to take a compression reading which should be approximately 100+ pounds and even on all cylinders. The second thing to check (with the s/plugs removed) is the spark which should jump a 7/16" gap with a strong blue flame on all cylinders.<br /><br />If you have the above in good condition, check the coil primary wires (the small orange ones going from the pack(s) to the coils. The top wires on a V/4 should be orange/blue. The bottom should be orange/green (or just plain orange).<br /><br />The carburetors should have been completely dismantled, cleaned, and rebuilt. Most engine failures are caused by clogged carburetors!<br /><br />The maximum rpm of 2500 would indicate that the engine is running on two (2) cylinders which would be contributed to either crossed coil wires, no spark on one bank, or (and most likely) clogged high speed jets on one carburetor.<br /><br />Having the engine die out when throttle is advanced would be contributed to (again) a clogged carburetor, a sticking timer base (under the flywheel), or having the carburetors open too soon in relation to the timing.<br /><br />Let us know what you find.

 

[Neil]

Re: Heeeelp Evinrude 140 again - paging 2KBoat or Evinrude aces

the saga continues..<br /><br />Initial testing focused on plugs. Mechanics were concerned thre was a large residue of oil on the plugs after the engine was ran at idle speed. I am running a 25:1 ratio as I am running in. They said this still should not happen. They said the fuel is not burning off properly. Either the carb is faulty or its ignition. All leads were checked and polarity and timing. No problem seen.<br /><br />Mechanics came and put to sea for about 30 mins. I wasn't able to go with them as something cropped up at the time I was boarding.<br /><br />When they cam back they were convinced they had found the problem. They said it was definately electrical and not fuel. Insufficient power to burn off the fuel ??? Never heard that before. Could it be true? One check they did do was to remove all plugs and connect the leads to a bakerlite plate whicg was earthed at one side. They were able to see the spark from each cylinder and adjust the gap via a slide plate. The sparks looked fierce enough to me and they thought so too. Now they are saying insufficient power in the electronics.<br /><br />They will return on Sunday will sufficient spares to prove their theory.<br /><br />Until then I have to wait as I do not know how to disprove their theory. Anyone have any ideas, how armed with a multimeter I can check.<br /><br />Everything worked find until my piston ring went and nothing has been changed.<br /><br />NG

 

[Neil]

Re: Heeeelp Evinrude 140 again - paging 2KBoat or Evinrude aces

woe is me. The saga goes on and on and on...<br /><br />Mechanics turned up. Electrical was the diagnosis on teh last post. They replaced electronics power pack and additional module with a spare unit I had. They couldn't test so I had to wait until Thursday.<br /><br />Started the engine, reluctant tro start and run. After plenty of choke (something it never needs cos of the high temp. it started. Selected reverse off the trailer. Stall. Restart and select forward, stall. I was able to inch forward sometime but any increase in power the engine stalled.<br /><br />Called Johnsome mechanics, ah they say, it must be the carbs. So now they have removed my carbs. Not convinced here either. As it is a V4 and I have 2 carbs, how can this affect performance so badly? They were OK before. <br /><br />Just to recap. Engine worked fine befire I shed a ring. Engine was rebuilt but had no power on the water. Boat and engine removed to test tank where mechanics ran with a test prop. Said it was OK to 5000 rpm and they swapped some jets.<br /><br />Removed boat to water, no power.<br /><br />Mechanics treturn. diagnosis, electrical problem. Although timing and sparks were OK. Fuel not burning off plugs so they thought it was not enough power. Ingnition changed.<br /><br />Back on water, no power. Engine stalls when forward or reverse speed selected.<br /><br />Mechanics no claim carbs faulty and removed these.<br /><br />Now I am getting p*&^*(&d. It is just a process of elimination without any real clue. I can do that if I had the parts.... My engine and ancillaries worked perfectly before the ring was lost. In fact I think it went better on 3 cyclinders.<br /><br />I asked the mechanics about compression again and they said there was no problem there.<br /><br />It is just as if there is no power in teh engine to turn the propeller. Maybe I have an oil tanker propeller and I just can't see it.<br /><br />Frustrated Oman!

 

[BigFellaQld]

Re: Heeeelp Evinrude 140 again - paging 2KBoat or Evinrude aces

This may sound a bit weird, but the loopers have port and starboard pistons, and they are different. The pistons are actually marked port and stb, and need to be installed that way to line up correctly with the ports. I once had one with weird symptoms, and that proved to be the case, after some backyard mechanic had rebuilt the motor. Also, there are several steps to setting up the timing/advance/throttle sync on a looper, and if not done properly, can make them run like pigs<br />Regards, Paul

 

[BillP]

Re: Heeeelp Evinrude 140 again - paging 2KBoat or Evinrude aces

Hey, about those pistons possibly being installed in the wrong cylinders...my cousin bought aftermarket racing rings for a merc and installed the rings upside down. Very bad running and was difficult to find the problem until he finally took the engine apart. <br /><br />Also, Johnson did have some major piston and ring upgrades to take care of problems on the 140s many years ago.

 

[Hooty]

Re: Heeeelp Evinrude 140 again - paging 2KBoat or Evinrude aces

Tha BigFella gets Hooty's vote.<br />Back on the 2 Sept. Dhadley said go to the basics. I've been thinking sync and link ever since and I still think that. I'll admit, I didn't think about the pistons though. No tellin' what those guys have done --- or not done.<br /><br />c/6<br /><br />Hooty

 

[Neil]

Re: Heeeelp Evinrude 140 again - paging 2KBoat or Evinrude aces

todays the day.<br /><br />OMC mechanics are positive they have found teh problem. A blocked jet. In 3 hours time they will refit the carbs and I will test.<br /><br />If it is still the same they can take it all away and start looking inside.<br /><br />NG

 

[Neil]

Re: Heeeelp Evinrude 140 again - paging 2KBoat or Evinrude aces

Yippeeeee!!!<br /><br />At last. Carbs refitted. Mechanics said one was blocked. Now have full power again. I presume they are not covering any silly mistakes but to recap if anyone wants information dirty carbs were attributing to low power and excessive fuel on spark plugs. Idle OK but power lost when engaging forward/reverse.<br /><br />I only has a quick test so I am looking forward to some long running in.<br /><br />Thanks for the input.<br /><br />NG

 

[Mike NZ]

Re: Heeeelp Evinrude 140 again - paging 2KBoat or Evinrude aces

Dhadly was onto it, well done. Its frustrating when these niggles persist after a rebuild. Outboard motors were put on earth to devolep the caracter of their owners. Happy boating.

 

[Neil]

Re: Heeeelp Evinrude 140 again - paging 2KBoat or Evinrude aces

Hold the bus!!!!<br /><br />I took the boat out for a spin last night. Guess what, now the same as ever. No power. It will idle, but a little lumpy but when I accellerate it picks up but holds about 2500 rpm and splutters along.<br /><br />Since the mechanics left nothing has been done.<br /><br />What I did realise that after the successful sea trial the mechanics replaced the carb cover. They ran the engine without this. Could it be I have a restricted air flow??<br /><br />My plan is to remove the carb cover and run engine again.<br /><br />Any other suggestions.<br /><br />NG

 

[Walker]

Re: Heeeelp Evinrude 140 again - paging 2KBoat or Evinrude aces

Joe Reeves mentioned a stuck timer base.. Did you check this. You can check it on the trailor. Move throttle handle all the way foreward and look at the throttle linkage on the motor. Be sure that the timing linkage has come forward with the throttle to the stop screw.

 

[Neil]

Re: Heeeelp Evinrude 140 again - paging 2KBoat or Evinrude aces

yep, the advance moves freely with throttle movement.<br /><br />Engine starts and revs freely with the choke lever and I can see the timing arm move. All ylinders firing and I get a drop when I remove spark lead.<br /><br />Everything has been checked and double checked.<br /><br />I can only think of the air cover which was off when the boat performed OK.<br /><br />NG