Going from surge brakes to no brakes

[Blorton]

Also having this bad clunking issue on my 03 18’er. Appreciate the tips, guys.

 

[Alumarine]

Clunking can also be caused by a lack of brake fluid.

 

[JASinIL2006]

Better tell Ford. They rated mine at 3,050 with the 3.5 EB and 4WDView attachment 363736

Fair enough - it is *possible* he has 3000# payload, but highly unlikely. That chart is really pretty misleading, since it doesn't show what an actual vehicle's payload is. Options, trim packages, etc. all reduce the available payload from what you've listed, which is max possible. Ford and all the other pickup manufacturers are very misleading when listing payload. To find out what one's actual truck is rated for, you need to look at the truck's yellow sticker on the driver's side door jamb. For example, mine is a '19 XLT Screw with 5.0L and 4WD and tow package, nothing fancy. As you can see below, the payload is less than 2000#. I'd bet most people have much less actual payload capacity than they think they do, based on the theoretical numbers Ford publishes.

 

[Lou C]

People love to hate on drum brakes but I have made them work well for my application, here disc brakes if not fully stainless are no better than drums, in fact the discs rust even worse.
Replaced a pair of 10" drums with 12" drums....

 

[dingbat]

Fair enough - it is *possible* he has 3000# payload, but highly unlikely. That chart is really pretty misleading, since it doesn't show what an actual vehicle's payload is. Options, trim packages, etc. all reduce the available payload from what you've listed, which is max possible.

Agree.
I have no idea what he has. Just that they do exist.....I have an 3.5 EB with the max. tow package sitting in the drive way.

To find out what one's actual truck is rated for, you need to look at the truck's yellow sticker on the driver's side door jamb.

I don't have a yellow sticker. Just a sticker giving GAWRs with a GVWR (#7,850), tire sizes, etc.

Getting a range of curb weights for my truck but the math comes up somewhere in the #2,750 - #2,900 range.

 

[dingbat]

People love to hate on drum brakes but I have made them work well for my application, here disc brakes if not fully stainless are no better than drums, in fact the discs rust even worse.
Replaced a pair of 10" drums with 12" drums....

My complaint with drums is not rust. Its too many moving parts to break or seize at the most inopportune times.

I've had seized pistons, seized adjusters, broken springs, shoes delaminate, you name it.

Obviously you've had good luck with your maintenance schedule but.....once done out of necessity, I'm not much into preventative maintenance anymore.

I run Dacromet (zinc) coated calipers on Dacromet rotors. Get 6-7 years of more or less maintenance free service out of a pair of calipers. Still running the original rotors from 10 years ago.

Calipers are more or less rust free. Rotors have surface rust, but ceramic pads make them all nice and shiny by the time we get to the end of the street.

 

[SweetCheeksTKB]

Getting back to what you have….
Looks like it’s a surge disc brake system
Post up pics and what make the actuator & disc brakes are. You may be able to easily repair the actuator if parts are available. Then flush & bleed the fluid (get a Lisle one man brake bleeder) and see if the master cyl & calipers are functional. You might get lucky being in fresh water. Here in the salt pond trailer brakes are an every 5/6 seasons repair item. I have surge drums and I usually replace the backing plates every 6 seasons or so. My last set of drums were still fine when I replaced that axle after 17 years. I think I replaced the backing plates 2x in that time. Now I have 12” galvanized drums on a 6,000 lb axle. You don’t even feel the boat behind you. Same Tie Down 6,600 lb capacity coupler 18 years old. I also have a rebuild kit for this sitting on a shelf in my garage with 2 spare sets of 12” backing plates. It’s what I do to deal with supply chain issues. Lotsa spare parts.

 

[SweetCheeksTKB]

View attachment 363826View attachment 363825

This is what I have. The top photo you can see that I am unable to remove the cap to check the oil. I am hoping that this is because I backed it in and didn't pull forward?? I have no clue! I believe this is an A 60.

 

[Scott Danforth]

its a UFP actuator, and it is pushed back inward - hence the reason you cant access the fluid.

I backed it in and didn't pull forward?? I have no clue! I believe this is an A 60.

you are missing the plastic cover, and most likely the shock is bad and you need to bleed the system.

you should be able to simply grab the actuator and pull it forward

if you have to replace the whole actuator, simply remove the two pins (with the retaining rings) and disconnect the brake line and remove the actuator

 

[SweetCheeksTKB]

its a UFP actuator, and it is pushed back inward - hence the reason you cant access the fluid.




you are missing the plastic cover, and most likely the shock is bad and you need to bleed the system.

you should be able to simply grab the actuator and pull it forward

if you have to replace the whole actuator, simply remove the two pins (with the retaining rings) and disconnect the brake line and remove the actuator

Thank you! Gives me a good direction.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Go to the UFO website, the manuals for all their products are there

 

[poconojoe]

How difficult would it be to go electric?

I switched from hydraulic surge drum brakes to totally electric, self adjusting drum brakes. It was not hard to do. I was tired of the constant banging whenever I came to a stop and then accelerated from a stop. Plus the system was not working most if the time and needed constant repairs such as replacing slave cylinders, bleeding the lines, etc. I was just tired of it all.

My truck also has the factory integrated brake controller.

My brakes are drums, so I'm not sure how much harder discs would be to do or how that will affect the price of parts.
I was able to use my existing drums with the new brakes, which saved some money.

I bought completely assembled self adjusting electric drum brakes that were mounted on new back plates, so it was an easy 4 bolt swap for each side.

Also keep in mind that electric brakes will require you to add an electric breakaway device in case your trailer separates from the tow vehicle.

Considering the condition of your trailer wiring, I would get a new wiring kit including LED lights. No more changing bulbs with the LED lights.
If you intend on going with electric brakes, you'll need the 7 pin round connector to accommodate the extra wires needed for the brakes.

I love my electric brakes. No more messy brake fluid or bleeding to do.
Plus with the factory brake controller, my truck integrates the trailer with the braking system of the truck. It reports if there's a problem with the trailer connection. It also responds accordingly to emergency braking situations, so it's not just a simple brakes on or off according to what your foot does. The computer monitors the trailer brakes.

 

[Scott Danforth]

correction, go to the Dexter website now that they own UFP https://www.dexteraxle.com/Company/News/2204/dexter-axle-acquires-unique-functional-products

here is a manual https://trailmastertrailers.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/UFP-Actuator-Maintenance.pdf

you can simply google UFP A60 parts and find hundreds of vendors including amazon

 

[Lou C]

If you have discs & want electric control you have to go to electric over hydraulic brakes which is a very good but expensive & complex system. I have had good luck with galvanized surge drums. I have the same actuator since 2004 (Tie Down model 66, does not clunk) & I usually replace the backing plates & bleed the system every 5-6 seasons. A pair of 12” galvanized backing plates (complete with all parts) is about $200. They stop great; my brake system is rated for 6,000 lbs & the boat & trailer weigh about 5,000.
What’s good about them:
No brake controller needed
surge works fine with lighter boats
free backing drums do not need reverse solenoids that can cause trouble
drums are adjustable and you can set the shoes for no drag to keep the shoes from rusting to the drum in storage
drum brakes are self energizing and provide more braking torque than discs at lower actuator pressures
This is why I go against the grain & still use drums.
However when I install a new backing plate, I
lube all the sliding surfaces & the adjuster with triple guard grease
if they are the old style boot cylinders, I remove the boot, coat the top of the piston with silicone brake grease (will not degrade rubber parts) then seal the boot to the cylinder with high temp rtv or similar to keep out water
this makes them work better and last longer
Tie Down/Dexter is selling ones now that use an improved bootless design, I have these on now & I'll see if they last longer

 

[savery]

The truck will have no problems pulling the load with or without brakes.

You could put the boat and trailer in the bed of the truck and still be below max. pay load weight.

Your restrictions are going to be legal.
Check legal requirements in your jurisdiction

Bear in mind that most all (that I've seen) manufacturers require trailer brakes at lower weights than required by law...

In this case, for a 2016 F150, Ford has this to say:

Separate functioning brake systems are required for safe control of towed vehicles and trailers weighing more than 1500 pounds (680 kilograms) when loaded.

Source: Owner's manual download link, page 277 of the document or page 280 of the PDF

Is this "regulatory"? I guess not. However, if everything "goes pear shaped," how could this sentence be used against you? Could an insurer use it to deny a claim? Could a civil plaintiff use it against you in court, or even a prosecutor in a trial for reckless driving (or worse)?

 

[Lou C]

I don’t know for sure how lawyers go about proving negligence but if both Ford & state regs require trailer brakes above a certain weight & you’re above that it may be easy for them to find liability on your end. Especially if you rear end someone…

 

[SweetCheeksTKB]

I switched from hydraulic surge drum brakes to totally electric, self adjusting drum brakes. It was not hard to do. I was tired of the constant banging whenever I came to a stop and then accelerated from a stop. Plus the system was not working most if the time and needed constant repairs such as replacing slave cylinders, bleeding the lines, etc. I was just tired of it all.

My truck also has the factory integrated brake controller.

My brakes are drums, so I'm not sure how much harder discs would be to do or how that will affect the price of parts.
I was able to use my existing drums with the new brakes, which saved some money.

I bought completely assembled self adjusting electric drum brakes that were mounted on new back plates, so it was an easy 4 bolt swap for each side.

Also keep in mind that electric brakes will require you to add an electric breakaway device in case your trailer separates from the tow vehicle.

Considering the condition of your trailer wiring, I would get a new wiring kit including LED lights. No more changing bulbs with the LED lights.
If you intend on going with electric brakes, you'll need the 7 pin round connector to accommodate the extra wires needed for the brakes.

I love my electric brakes. No more messy brake fluid or bleeding to do.
Plus with the factory brake controller, my truck integrates the trailer with the braking system of the truck. It reports if there's a problem with the trailer connection. It also responds accordingly to emergency braking situations, so it's not just a simple brakes on or off according to what your foot does. The computer monitors the trailer brakes.

Thank you. You have gave me something more to think about. I am going to have my son look at my current set up and have him see if he can fix my current set up or if it's even worth saving. If not, I will enlist him to change me over to electric. I do plan on rewiring my trailer. I am chomping at the bit to start (this will be the first time I have re-wired anything so I'm a bit excited to give it a try) I'm kinda shocked my tail lights actually work. (at least when the connections at the weird splice at the front of the trailer are properly touching)

Thanks again for the feed back.

 

[SweetCheeksTKB]

correction, go to the Dexter website now that they own UFP https://www.dexteraxle.com/Company/News/2204/dexter-axle-acquires-unique-functional-products

here is a manual https://trailmastertrailers.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/UFP-Actuator-Maintenance.pdf

you can simply google UFP A60 parts and find hundreds of vendors including amazon

correction, go to the Dexter website now that they own UFP https://www.dexteraxle.com/Company/News/2204/dexter-axle-acquires-unique-functional-products

here is a manual https://trailmastertrailers.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/UFP-Actuator-Maintenance.pdf

you can simply google UFP A60 parts and find hundreds of vendors including amazon

Thank you so much for all your help!

It's greatly appreciated.

 

[bruceb58]

More than likely you need a new master cylinder. Clunking is the number one sign it has failed.

Just fix what you have. I would have hydraulic surge discs everyday over electric drum brakes. I have a travel trailer with electric drum and one of the thigs I am planning by the end of the year is convert them to electric over hydraulic disc brakes. I hate the drum brakes..

 

[airshot]

I recently bought an older 2005 boat with trailer. The trailer is a single axle with an A 60 Hydralic brake actuator for disc brakes.

1. the trailer clunks every time I take off.
2. The cap to the oil check is partially blocked by some part of the actuator. Guess it may be because I backed it up and parked it not letting it come forward? Not sure.
3. The wires were not installed professionally. They are hanging down in the back by the tail lights and wrapped willy nilly with tape. At the front under the actuator they have a male to female 5 pin splice that is shorting out and causing lights to not work, plus another flat male 5 pin that runs from that splice and goes to the tow vehicle.

I want to rewire the whole trailer but I want to get real opinions on keeping the hydraulic system for the disc breaks or removing the system all together.

IF I do remove the system do I need to do anything with trailer axles and disc brakes?
I am a bit of a newby so If I sound like I don't know what I am talking about.... Your assessment would be correct.

Boat is roughly 19' long and weighs slightly over 2000#. Trailer is a Tennessee single axle
Tow vehicle is a 2016 Ford F150 XLT with towing package (incl. brake controller)

Thank you in advance

If your total towing weight is 3k or kess you will be fine without trailer brakes !! Here in Ohio they recomend brakes with towing weights of 2500 lbs unless the towing vehicle is equiped with a trailer towing pkg, then the trailer weight can go up to 3k lbs. Over 3k lbs does require trailer brakes. This comes from county sherrif and local hwy patrol office.