Do You Believe?

[mellowyellow]

Re: Do You Believe?

no, not at all WBW... I am real worried that<br />all the acts of terrorism and fallen soilders<br />in Iraq could sway people to vote for Kerry.<br />this is EXACTLY what the terrorists are trying<br />to accomplish, effect public opinion with their<br />actions. I for one don't want them to even think<br />for 1 second they can win. it will only increase<br />their efforts IMHO.

 

[oddjob]

Re: Do You Believe?

Each vote for Kerry is a vote for terrorism?<br />

There you go Willy...there you go! <br /><br /><br />Next thing you need to work on is .......the polls willy (trying not to laugh outloud here).<br /> <br /><br />I'm concerned for you and your comrades during and after the election. After the polls and the media hype has foresaken you may feel the need to follow the crys from the media and dems to commit civil unrest

 

[WillyBWright]

Re: Do You Believe?

So what you seem to be implying is that Kerry is guilty of treason for even running against Bush and every democrat is guilty of the same for promoting him because we're at war and it would send the wrong message if he should pull a rabbit out of his hat and actually win this thing. Maybe I'm misreading you, but there are people that feel that way. If that were the case and nobody ran against a sitting president, then what would prevent a president from waging war just to stay in office?<br /><br />Take away the right to vote and the right to run...THEN the Terrorists win!<br /><br />Don't worry for me oddjob. I really have no strong desire to see any of the men running for this office win or lose. Well let me change that. I want GW to lose. But that has far more to do with the man than the circumstances. I just don't like him. Never did. Never will. No matter how it turns out, I'll feel stuck with the outcome. But any way I look at it, I'm still better off than people in those countries where they have no choices at all. God Bless America!<br /><br />Well, there I go and break my own original request for brevity. Shame On Me!

 

[Fly Rod]

Re: Do You Believe?

How does that song go!!!!!<br /><br />"I believe that every time a tear drop falls," "A star is Born!!!!!!"

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: Do You Believe?

too many smart A$$ answers got ya on the defensive<br />willy... I am not a "blind" republican Bush<br />supporter or a Kerry hater.<br />if the ONLY reason a person is voting for Kerry<br />is the problems the terrorists have caused us in<br />Iraq, then I think we are sending a bad, scary<br />message to them that their tactics work.<br />while there may be many reasons that Kerry would<br />be a better choice, the DNC doesn't really try too<br />hard to express them. ever since the primaries,<br />all they want to do is talk about the war and all<br />of the casualties.<br />isn't this the whole reason all these terrorists<br />are doing what they are doing? god help us is we<br />waver now under the pressure...

 

[WillyBWright]

Re: Do You Believe?

Time will tell, but in my state we are approaching what I'd consider a GOOD competetion between two good men running for Senate. I have no doubt that we will be honorably served no matter which one wins. It seems the opponents are pledging to run clean campaigns and run on the issues. There have been no personal attacks as yet, and the worst thing that has been said is that the incumbent made a few key votes that were wrong. Fair game! But that's incredibly mild compared to the Presidential campaigns. Both sides are guilty of the same things. I wish they'd also pledge to run clean campaigns. Kerry did, but I see it getting uglier as time goes by. Bush just started ugly. Kerry has some catching up to do. Too bad for US. (Still lacking in brevity, but at least we kept it to one paragraph. That counts. )

 

[hayhauler]

Re: Do You Believe?

Kerry started a clean campaign? His buddy Michael Moore wasn't part of it at all? Kerry, through his 527 groups, called Bush everything but a Southern gentleman. Kerry has some catching up to do in not questioning other people's patriotism and honesty. When he catches up there, he has some catching up to do in the area of making the decisions a good leader should make. I don't think he'll ever catch up in those areas, but that's OK, because I don't think he'll be very important in a few weeks anyway.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: Do You Believe?

Oddjob - I want to go fishing with you, have a few beers and laugh our @$$s off!

 

[PW2]

Re: Do You Believe?

Let's see now...<br /><br />The top intelligence officer in this administration is now telling the administration that we are about to enter into a civil war in Iraq, and the mess is more and more turning into a quagmire...<br /><br />I hate people that say "I told you so", but "I told you so--and long before we even entered this mess, if you all recall.<br /><br />Can anyone say "VietNam"?<br /><br />And let's see--a financial analysis reveals that just accounting for actual government expenditures on health care, and not including private insurance, We are spending more per capita in tax payer money than Canada is, and they have universal health care--where we still have 40 million uninsured. And it does not include the new 600 billion dollar prescription drug benefit.<br /><br />It seems the HMO's that we are funding are taking 30% off the top for administration, and who knows how much for profits. And this is what Bush tells us we want to own!!!<br /><br />It is, of course, heartening that we are paying for universal health care--it's too bad we don't have it.<br /><br />Perhaps it is a benefit, in that per Greenspan, social security is in trouble and that we will have to cut benefits and increase the retirement age---So as Canadians live an average of 3.5 years longer than Americans, we clearly could not afford for our population to live longer.<br /><br />And of course, we are running 1/2 trillion dollar deficits, with no plan for decreasing spending or increasing tax revenue.<br /><br />So when you add it all up--under this administration:<br /><br />Foreign policy is a mess.<br />Health care is a mess.<br />Domestic policy is a mess.<br /><br />And not even one mention of the real terrorist at their recent convention--Osama Bin Forgotten.<br /><br />I can see why you all want to re-elect Bush--Exept for those little issues like Foreign Policy, domestic policy, and health care and medicare, everything else is doing peachy!<br /><br />Unless we have not had time to look at the other stuff...

 

[oddjob]

Re: Do You Believe?

Yeah, PW you (and the media first)told us....Quagmire, Vietnam....you are 100% correct about telling us right after the media gave you those talking points. <br /><br /><br />And were still laughing .....

 

[sailor3X7]

Re: Do You Believe?

I've never met a perfect man.<br />I have, in fact, met George W. Bush and visited with him in his press room in the capital in Austin when he was governor of the great state of Texas.<br />I do believe in President Bush.<br />He has my enthusiastic vote.

 

[sailor3X7]

Re: Do You Believe?

Originally posted by PW2:<br /> I hate people that say "I told you so", but "I told you so--and long before we even entered this mess, if you all recall.<br />

Just an observation, I notice that you registered with iboats 04/04

 

[SCO]

Re: Do You Believe?

Good eye Sailor, but I can vouch that PW has been here for a few years, aka Plywoody, and he did say quagmire. I said at about the same time frame that the terrorists would be slipping through the southern border into the US, and just saw that big story on Oreily tonight.<br /><br />From Willy" So what you seem to be implying is that Kerry is guilty of treason for even running against Bush "<br /><br />Yes with a caveat. JFK is certainly flip floping, implying that he is selecting a platform with which to beat GW, not running on any core belief. Jerry Brown said it also tonight on FOX, that Kerry has to go anti war since pro war is a win for GW. This is what the terrorists want, strengthens the resolve of the enemy, destroys the moral of our fighting men, and insures defeat in Iraq to our future detriment (or benefit depending on your view of the war), erases the sacrifice of our soldiers. Unless he(JFK) is anti war to the core, then indeed his platform is treasonous because men and women are dying for principle. Why shouldn't our presidents at least risk losing an election for principle? If he is truely anti war, why has he put on a war face at various points in his campaign? Final conclusion, stakes are huge, we have a right to know who he is and what he believes, and he has a duty to be straight with us. This DNC voter manipulation craaap is somewhere between cheesy to treasonous. They've lost their souls.

 

[PW2]

Re: Do You Believe?

Sorry, sailor.<br /><br />The reason why many call me "plywoody" on this board was that I originally registered under that, and due to one techincal problem or another, I had to re-register...<br /><br />If you wish to check the archives, check under that name, and you will find that I accurately predicted, long before the war started, and with much ridicule from the majority on this board, what would happen in Iraq if we started a war with them<br /><br />That is not to say I am that smart--I am not--but it was pretty clear going in to lots of different people that this would be the outcome---unless you are a rigid neo con idealogue who only listened to their own opinions, and ridiculed any who disputed the Cheney "Iraqis greeting us with flowers and singing" scenario.<br /><br />And, OJ, I noticed you have not disputed any of the facts of my statement, but only the origin of them. I can't control the press, and I can't stop them from seeing the obvious, and reporting on same.<br />I would think it obvious to everyone, but since no one on this board seemed to recognize it, I felt compelled to share.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: Do You Believe?

Can anyone say "Vietnam"?

Why does that sound like wishful thinking?<br /><br />North Vietnam had a regular army and a formal government that was never really threatened. North Vietnam was never invaded and never conquered. The NVA and Vietcong were highly organized and coordinated and fought an insurgency and a conventional war simultaneously.<br /><br />North Vietnam had a central leader that many of the people revered. He kept the people united and motivated.<br /><br />North Vietnam had the financial and material support of 2 major powers (China and USSR)<br /><br />North Vietnam had an air force and modern Soviet MIGs<br /><br />Vietnam was fought in the tough terrain of the jungle not the desert and urban settings.<br /><br />The Vietnam war was fought largely from Washington where Johnson was personally picking targets for much of the war. By the time Nixon got in, his hands were somewhat tied due to the domestic situation created by liars like Kerry.<br /><br />The Vietnam war had people like Kerry who came home and lied about the war, the people who fought it, generated a minor civil war at home and in general gave tremendous aid and comfort to the enemy which further damaged the war effort and guaranteed the NV would never give up.<br /><br />The US Army was largely a conscript army in Vietnam and is a 100% volunteer army in Iraq (Marine enlistment and retention are said to be among the highest in history right now)<br /><br />At the height of the Vietnam War we lost more men in a month than we have lost in a year in Iraq (in 1968 for example 16,869 men died in Vietnam)<br /><br />Let's talk about the CIA analysis. The assessment you hang your hat on was made by the same agency you said was wrong when they said Iraq had WMDs, etc. So you believe them when it suits your needs. Consider this:<br /><br />

But the official noted that the document, which runs about 50 pages, draws on less formal intelligence community assessments from January 2003, before the US-led invasion of Iraq and the subsequent deteriorating security situation there.<br />

and<br /><br />

The National Intelligence Council looked at the political, economic and security situation in the war-torn country and determined that – at best – the situation would be tenuous in terms of stability, a US official said late Wednesday, speaking on the condition of anonymity.<br /><br />At worst, the official said, were “trend lines that would point to a civil war.”

Now after having been "wrong" using "formal" intelligence and heavily criticized for their previous "optimistic" assessments does anyone here think they would write anything but a pessimistic assessment? <br /><br />We have seen these dire predictions before. Shortly after the start of the war many were claiming it was a "quagmire." Wes Clarke predicted that we would take "horrendous casualties" and Franks had made "a monumental military blunder." McCaffrey predicted that in the battle for Baghdad alone we would take "a couple to three thousand causalities." Chris Matthews warned that if we went to war "it will join the Bay of Pigs, Vietnam, Desert One, Beirut and Somalia in the history of Military Catastrophe." Just 9 days before Baghdad fell, Seymour Hirsh, famous since Vietnam for his "investigative Journalism" proclaimed it a "stalemate." Seymour has since turned to richer soil with Abu Garib.<br /><br />I don't understand the fascination the left has with Vietnam. It is like they are holding on tightly to their moment of glory. It so defined and formed them they can't let it go. The see it everywhere they look. In their mid-life crisis stages they are trying hard to re-live it. The share their glassy-eyed stories with the younger left-leaning generations who yearn for their own "Vietnam" to protest. The problem is, they ripped the scab wide open and now more of the truth is beginning to come out. It threatens to destroy their candidate, maybe even their party and their own sense of self. Soon there will be more Americans who's defining moments will be the Iranian hostage crisis, Beirut, GW1, 911 and Iraq and then the ghost of Vietnam will appear less frequently.

 

[dhud64]

Re: Do You Believe?

BUSH is my IDIOT of choice!

 

[sailor3X7]

Re: Do You Believe?

Okay plywoody. Makes sense to me. I suspected something like that was probably the case. That's why I just noted it as an observation. I don't need to check the archives, I believe you. I appreciate your kind explanation. You could have chewed me up. <br /><br />Do you guys feel like this election year is basically politics as usual? In other words, is this the same type of debate that has gone on every 4 years in this country for over 200 years? Or is our country becoming divided? I am really hoping that we are not dividing because we all know a house divided cannot stand.<br />That concerns me. <br />***<br />plywoody, is your original moniker a reference to boat building or just the comical double entendre? The reason I ask is that I am currently building a sailboat with a plywood hull. Just wondering if there is a kindred spirit there.

 

[PW2]

Re: Do You Believe?

I try *never* to "chew anyone up" in any situation, ever. Even if on occasion it is possible to do, it *never* serves any useful purpose.<br /><br />And yes, in my opinion, our country is dividing (or has divided) big time, and it is indeed very troubling. We have always had differences before-disagreements are the lifeblood of a democracy, but there has always been a certain faction who were able to build political coalitions and take the best ideas from both sides and build good policy decisions. Even people like Nixon came up with some good policy at times.<br /><br />There are, it seems to me, fewer and fewer political "moderates" out there, and things like talk radio and the internet are convincing many that the world is black and white, and that simple solutions will always work, if it weren't for the opposition, or the "activist judiciary", or the "whacko environmentalists", or you name the group. It is indeed troubling.<br /><br />Never trust anyone that thinks their idealogy is always right.

 

[PW2]

Re: Do You Believe?

Oh, and the reference to plywood is because I am involved in plywood manufacturing. If you have any technical questions regarding marine grade plywood, or any other type of plywood, let me know.<br /><br />And good luck on your wooden boat project. Being an expert in plywood, I have owned a fiberglass sailboat, and an aluminum fishing boat! Actually, wooden boats are cool, but lots of maintainence is required.

 

[lakelivin]

Re: Do You Believe?

Do I believe? NO. I'm repeating an earlier post, but it applies here even more than the first one. I'm a registered independent and disgusted with the current state of politics and most politicians in general. <br /><br />Our early politicians/ founding fathers were clearly the best and brightest this country had to offer. Look at the systems they set up that have stood the test of centuries. Does anybody honestly think our current political leaders are even close to being in the same league as our founding fathers? Obviously there still are outstanding Americans amongst us, but I contend that very few are in politics. <br /><br />I'm demoralized that we are at a point where ambition, connections, likeability, money, and political skills (both personal and party) seem to matter so much more than one's qualifications to lead the country when it comes to electibility.<br /><br />Again, repeating what I said before, but there are only a handful of high level politicians I'm aware of for whom I believe integrity is more important that party politics and personal ambition. I could live with some different policy wiews than mine as long as the policy makers were intelligent, honest and objective. John McCain, Joe Lieberman, and Colin Powell represent a few I see as being in that category.