Bought a 1998 Sea Ray Sundancer 270 wide beam with rot...

tpenfield

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tpenfield so in a picture like this, what is supporting the deck?

http://forums.iboats.com/forum/boat-...96#post6902196

I thought the stringers supported a wood deck, which supported a liner? Is the liner solid fiberglass and one whole piece on cruisers? That could make everything easier for me...If that's the case, why couldn't one just fill the hull with high density foam (like a Whaler) and be done? Why even use stringers if foam also gives a hull rigidity?

Cruisers and large boats with sleeping berths below deck are built differently then bowriders and runabouts

That is why I previously posted "do not cut the deck". Essentially, the deck is part of the cockpit liner and is supported only in a few places underneath but more so at the rub-rail where are the hull and cockpit liner join.

I may be able to post a few diagrams later tonight. I am leaving for Florida in the morning, So I may not get to it.
 

drewm3i

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Cruisers and large boats with sleeping berths below deck are built differently then bowriders and runabouts

That is why I previously posted "do not cut the deck". Essentially, the deck is part of the cockpit liner and is supported only in a few places underneath but more so at the rub-rail where are the hull and cockpit liner join.

I may be able to post a few diagrams later tonight. I am leaving for Florida in the morning, So I may not get to it.

Okay, sweet. So to me, that would indicate that a repair on a cruiser is not as important as on a bowrider as the hull is thick and the deck needs no support...? The engine mount stringer need to be dealt with though ASAP...

What part of Florida? I am near West Palm and the boat is in Fort Lauderdale if you want to take a look. :D
 

drewm3i

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Is this something where I could treat the rot in the good areas with EG to stop it from spreading, seacast the motor mounts, and put a few layers of woven roving over the rotten parts???
 

tpenfield

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Cruisers still need the support of stringers and bulkheads, but the accommodation of living space below deck means that the designs are a bit different. . . . Usually there are as many if not more stringers since often they cannot be as tall as those of smaller boats. The height of the boat provides some rigidity for cruisers, but cruisers are pretty flimsy compared to a deep V center console.

Here is my handy work diagramming what you are seeing with the mid-section of the Crownie 250
CruiserProfile.png
The stringers typically support the cabin floor and the sleeping berths, The cockpit deck acts as the roof of the aft cabin and is generally supported by the entire cockpit liner, which is attached at the rubrail, and by a bulkhead or two.

I typically use EG in isolated areas where moisture/rot is just starting into an otherwise good section of wood. It is certainly a judgement call as to using EG versus cutting and replacing. Keep in mind that a common theme to all of the restorations/repairs is that they start out having a perceived scope, being somewhat limited and manageable. Once you start opening things up the extent of the problems usually goes 3X of what you had planned.

I know on my Formula, I initially figured that I could cut out the main bulkhead, replace the center section of it and be done. Then I saw the issue with the fuel tank. Once I removed the fuel tank for repairs, I saw that the storage compartment floor in the mid-section of the boat was wet and rotting. so, the scope of the repairs went 3X on me.

You need to be prepared that once you start the repair process on your boat, you will find more issues than you were hoping. The thing to do is to do it once by doing it right.

Anyway, if the bulkhead is rotted and the rot has spread into the center-most stringers that support the engines, I suspect that the rot has also progressed forward into the stringers that run underneath or alongside the fuel tank and under the aft berth. You noticed that BigDirty took the interior out of his Crownie 250 to be able to get at everything. He found a greater extent of issues as he went, bringing him all the way forward to the main cabin. Hopefully your boat will not need that much work, but it is important to know the extent of work it needs.

You can probably seacast the engine mounts.

I would not cover a rotted stringer with additional fiberglass. Rather remove the rot and rebuild the stringer and glass it accordingly. You can use plywood as most do to rebuild things, but you can certainly use other materials like foam or some of the synthetic boards.

If a structural member or area is just starting to see moisture or rot, then you can use EG on those parts . . . dry it out really good and glass that area.

Anyway, I hope that helps. I am heading to the West Palm Beach area, but will only be there for a day or 2. Possibly, I could take a look at your boat. :)
 
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drewm3i

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Sweet! I really don't think the rot has spread to the cabin as I have access to the forward bilge and it is dry, clean, and solid per the hammer. The aft cabin is also solid, dry, and doesn't stink one bit. Knowing the deck won't be an issue or have to be cut has definitely lifted morale...I am already working on securing a place to work, some helpers, the engine pull, and transportation. PM me about checking out the boat. I am free Saturday or Sunday if you can make it...I could definitely use a skilled set of eyes. I've seen your web pages, good work!
 

tpenfield

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I agree that the rot probably has not gone forward much, but you may find it has started forward into the stringers under the aft bunk. You will know more once you cut out the engine room bulkhead. You mentioned that it had started forward on the starboard side of the fuel tank (?)

I'm wondering if you can grab a used bunk trailer for the rebuild, then you could sell it afterwards. That way you could re-capture some of the logistics cost.

I won't be in West Palm until Tuesday (driving there this weekend), then heading to NY the next day. So, possibly Tuesday, if my time is not spoken for :) If you have the time this weekend take lots of pictures from various distances and angles. I was fortunate with my boat that I could find some factory photos of the 330 being built so I pretty much knew what the structure looked like before picking up the wrecking saw. :) I'm wondering if there is such on the club Sea Ray forum or elsewhere :noidea:
 

drewm3i

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I agree that the rot probably has not gone forward much, but you may find it has started forward into the stringers under the aft bunk. You will know more once you cut out the engine room bulkhead. You mentioned that it had started forward on the starboard side of the fuel tank (?)

I'm wondering if you can grab a used bunk trailer for the rebuild, then you could sell it afterwards. That way you could re-capture some of the logistics cost.

I won't be in West Palm until Tuesday (driving there this weekend), then heading to NY the next day. So, possibly Tuesday, if my time is not spoken for :) If you have the time this weekend take lots of pictures from various distances and angles. I was fortunate with my boat that I could find some factory photos of the 330 being built so I pretty much knew what the structure looked like before picking up the wrecking saw. :) I'm wondering if there is such on the club Sea Ray forum or elsewhere :noidea:

Okay, I could maybe do Tuesday. I took a bunch of pictures today...

Port side of aft bulkhead


Port center of aft bulkhead


Starboard center of aft bulkhead (bad side and start point for rot IMO)


Starboard side of aft bulkhead (bad side)


Rotten stringer attached to starboard side of aft bulkhead


Looking forward at aft bulkhead from in between engine mount stringers


Generator mount platform and engine bay/aft cabin firewall (looking forward)


Engine mount stringer (I think it's good)


Other engine mount stringer (I also think it's good)


Looking back at transom (seems good so far, will find out after engine removal)


Starboard side bilge floor (seems solid)


Vacuflush mounted to starboard bilge floor


Port bilge floor (seems solid, will find out later when I have better access...)


Main bilge


Aft cabin floor (rock solid); fuel tank is under center section (held down by screws) so it will easily be able to remove tank...


 

tpenfield

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Thanks for posting these additional pictures. They certainly help. Couple of questions. . .

What is forward of the bulkhead on either side of the fuel tank. Is it boxed in or just open . I see some components on the port side, but did not notice any on the starboard side.

The fuel tank is plastic? Do you know if the fuel tank is V shaped underneath to fit the contour of the hull, or are there some stringers under the fuel tank that support it up off of the hull? Can you see if there is standing water in the areas along side or just behind the fuel tank? Does the tank butt up next to the bulkhead or is there a gap?

It looks like aluminum framing going across the main stringers and over the fuel tank. I assume that this is the bed base for the aft berth? It also looks like the main stringers cantilever a few inches out past the bulkhead and also there is an equipment shelf as part of the aluminum framing and is supported by these cantilevered sections of stringer?

You mentioned rot in the starboard side main stringer. How far forward can you see or detect rot?

It looks like the back wall and the bed base of the aft berth will need to come out in order to raise the fuel tank out and hopefully have enough clearance to bring it out the engine bay opening. This is where BigDirty had to cut a few inches into the cockpit deck of his Crownie 250, as the tank did not have enough clearance.

I also assume the engines will want to come out to repair the engine mount stringers. That may help in getting the fuel tank to come out.

Sea Ray does a nice job in glassing the stringers, but not as much on the bulkheads. Is there any places where you were able to punch a screw driver through into the wood/rot?
 
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drewm3i

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Thanks for posting these additional pictures. They certainly help. Couple of questions. . .

What is forward of the bulkhead on either side of the fuel tank. Is it boxed in or just open . I see some components on the port side, but did not notice any on the starboard side.

The fuel tank is plastic? Do you know if the fuel tank is V shaped underneath to fit the contour of the hull, or are there some stringers under the fuel tank that support it up off of the hull? Can you see if there is standing water in the areas along side or just behind the fuel tank? Does the tank butt up next to the bulkhead or is there a gap?

It looks like aluminum framing going across the main stringers and over the fuel tank. I assume that this is the bed base for the aft berth? It also looks like the main stringers cantilever a few inches out past the bulkhead and also there is an equipment shelf as part of the aluminum framing and is supported by these cantilevered sections of stringer?

You mentioned rot in the starboard side main stringer. How far forward can you see or detect rot?

It looks like the back wall and the bed base of the aft berth will need to come out in order to raise the fuel tank out and hopefully have enough clearance to bring it out the engine bay opening. This is where BigDirty had to cut a few inches into the cockpit deck of his Crownie 250, as the tank did not have enough clearance.

I also assume the engines will want to come out to repair the engine mount stringers. That may help in getting the fuel tank to come out.

Sea Ray does a nice job in glassing the stringers, but not as much on the bulkheads. Is there any places where you were able to punch a screw driver through into the wood/rot?

Lots of questions in there...😂 I'll try to answer as best as I can.

Forward of the bulkhead side is both boxed in , but also open as I can get my hand in there. On the port (solid) side, the ac compressor? is visible and just laying there haphazardly.

The tank is plastic. I think it conforms to the hull shape, but don't know for sure. There is some standing water in the compartment, but not much. No foam that I can see. I think it will be easy to remove to be honest as there should be plenty of clearance without cutting the liner.

I think the aluminum framing you are seeing is for the generator that has been removed. Not sure what supports the aft berth, but the floor is definitely salvageable and reusable, so that's good.

Again, the part that is rotten is the plank that rests on the flimsy little bulkhead. There is no way that thing with no glass is a main stringer. The one immediately to the right is solid and has glass..the rot goes a foot or so forward as far as I can reach. This is where I can crunch the wood/glass with my hands...in this bulkhead, the cavity, and the bulkhead at the forward end of that cavity.

The firewall/cabin wall most definitely will have to be removed. I think though, that it is removable and also won't have to be cut per Sea Ray tech support. If you and AllDodge give me your email, I will forward you our correspondence.

Yeah, the glass work is sloppy. I don't understand why builders don't make a fiberglass liner for the bilge and then glue wood planks to that liner to mount things...then they wouldn't have to glass anything other than tabbing...this is a good boat though. Very spacious and well designed. One example of this is the booth and couch area in the cabin. For a 28' boat, that's a crazy amount of space. It sleeps 6! Another example is that the deck drains and anchor drains work very well, no leaks anywhere in the cabin either. This is a good size, but not too big. I actually don't mind pulling the engines and going through them as well. I just overpaid for a boat in need of structural repairs...
 

alldodge

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My thought is if most the damage showing on the port side, that the tank or fittings may be leaking.
 

drewm3i

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AllDodge great and skillful resto on your Formula! But after seeing that I don't know if I would want one just because everything is an absolute pain to get at. Plus they use aluminum foamed in tanks. Seems like everything is made for ruggedness and performance, not for ease of service. Seems like my boat will be easier to take apart.
 

alldodge

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Except most of the damage is on the starboard side...good thought though.

Oh well my bad, is there any AC condensation or plumbing of the starboard side? If not, guess we just have to wait for the tear in to find out what caused it
 

drewm3i

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Oh well my bad, is there any AC condensation or plumbing of the starboard side? If not, guess we just have to wait for the tear in to find out what caused it

Ac condensation and shower both drain to a plastic sump box in the shower and are pumped overboard.
 

tpenfield

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Looks like Sea Ray sent you some pretty good information with those shop drawings, etc. It is a lot more than most of the folks doing restoration work get. So, you should be in good shape.

Based on the pictures that you posted, etc. I have made a 3D image of what I think the bulkhead and surrounding structure looks like.

So here is my take on what the structure looks like . . .
SeaRay270Structure.png

Based on your descriptions, here is where the rot probably resides (red areas)
SeaRay270Structure2.png
Let me know if that seems to be accurate, based on what you have inspected and observed.

I would plan on removing the engines, the assorted components in the engine bay, the aft berth furnishings and platform, and the fuel tank. I would hope that you do not have to got further forward than the aft berth and can leave the main cabin alone.
 

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drewm3i

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Looks like Sea Ray sent you some pretty good information with those shop drawings, etc. It is a lot more than most of the folks doing restoration work get. So, you should be in good shape.

Based on the pictures that you posted, etc. I have made a 3D image of what I think the bulkhead and surrounding structure looks like.

So here is my take on what the structure looks like . . .


Based on your descriptions, here is where the rot probably resides (red areas)

Let me know if that seems to be accurate, based on what you have inspected and observed.

I would plan on removing the engines, the assorted components in the engine bay, the aft berth furnishings and platform, and the fuel tank. I would hope that you do not have to got further forward than the aft berth and can leave the main cabin alone.

That looks pretty good (accurate) to me...well done Ted! You sure you don't want another project this winter? :D
 

alldodge

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Hope you can find how the water was getting in close to the tank, if not it could very well be from the transom. Hope not
 

drewm3i

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Hope you can find how the water was getting in close to the tank, if not it could very well be from the transom. Hope not

Well that area is not exactly sealed and there are two limber holes. I think it's normal for water to get in hard to reach places on a boat...
 
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