2.5L 4cyl Starting problems

[ngoodart]

Ok guys, I need some assistance. I am a noob to I/O boats and I got my hands on one for dirt. I am mechaniclly inclined and can fix pretty much anything. I now have 2 boats one is a very basic 14' Tinny with a 9.5 Evinrude OB that I got running like a top. Not to my current project. '84 Mercruiser 2.5L 4 Cyl S/N 6719631. I have another thread going in the general boat questions about this 84 Sea sprite I accuired for a reasonable price. When I picked the boat up the PO and I had it on muffs and it turned over and fired briefly. I need to replace the lower shift cable it is kinked and the outdrive won't come out of gear, I get the boat home and proceed to begin cleaning up the PO's mess and she is trying to be a PIA!

I need some assistance the Admiral is begining to doubt the purchase and I am frustrated. I have ordered the Shift cable kit and a few other things that were in desperate need of replacing. What I have done so far:
1. Re-attached the upper control cables to the control unit and the engine
2. Cleaned the Carb
3. Pulled the plugs and cleaned/gapped them to 0.045 (tag on the Block says this is the correct gap)
4. Checked spark looks good
5. Pulled distrubutor cap and cleaned the contacts, the rotor arm and the points.
6. Cleaned and lubed battery cables (both ends)


After doing those I am still having issues getting it to fire up, any ideas of what else I can check? Help me out here I am about to start throwing wrenches and cussin' Which the Little admiral goes and tells the admiral about and I get yelled at.
Thanks guys I appreciate it

 

[Eric 3.7LX Alpha 1]

Re: 2.5L 4cyl Starting problems

Some of those parts you are cleaning are items that are replaced yearly as part of an annual tune-up.

Everything under the distributor cap: cap, rotor, points, condenser, (you are getting spark but they are yearly items)

Fuel filters, both the fuel water separator, and the one at the inlet of the carb

Read both these should get you going again
How To: Troubleshoot a Points Ignition System
http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=335407

and

How To: Tune-up Your Engine with Points Ignition
http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=335302

and

HOW TO: Testing your boats fuel system.
http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=283269

 

[Don S]

Re: 2.5L 4cyl Starting problems

First of all, you don't clean points, you replace them and the condenser. You say the spark is fine, but I would bet it's yellow and not bright blue/white. You also veryify point gap, and then check the dwell when you get it running, THEN set timing.

Also the spark plugs should be gaped at .035. Just like every other 2.5 used by Mercruiser.

 

[ngoodart]

Re: 2.5L 4cyl Starting problems

Thanks for the input, I know most of those items should be replaced, I was just trying to isolate my problem to either fuel delivery or spark, Oh and the compression on all 4 cyl is right around 120 each one is a little different but not more the +/- 2-3 psi. I guess I will inform the wife that we will be ordering more parts, So I need to replace the plugs, distrubutor cap, rotor arm. Any other suggestions? Also any ideas on getting the drive out of gear with the cable pinched I can't get it to travel enough to come out of gear. Will this contribute to my starting Problem?
Thanks I appreciate your help

 

[Don S]

Re: 2.5L 4cyl Starting problems

Also any ideas on getting the drive out of gear with the cable pinched I can't get it to travel enough to come out of gear.

If the cable is pinced, replace it, you can't use it. If it's in forward gear, no problem, pull the drive. If it's in reverse, drop the lower unit first, then remove the upper.

 

[ngoodart]

Re: 2.5L 4cyl Starting problems

I have the cable ordered, I believe that it is in reverse, the prop will ratchet CW ( looking at the prop facing the bow) Is there anything else that I should be looking at? I know that the impeller was replaced last spring. Im going to change the oil as well, it looks good (no signs of water) just needs changed. Is there a preferred brand for the Spark plugs? Do I really need to replace the condensor? Thanks Don, I did order the Manual like stated eariler but is there some instruction avialable online so that I can start to get the drive pulled in preperation for the cable replacement?
I Really appreciate all help your guys give

 

[Don S]

Re: 2.5L 4cyl Starting problems

Do I really need to replace the condensor?

Do you order a hamburger without a bun?

AC or NGK spark plugs will be fine. NOT Champion. see the tunup picture I posted earlier for type and gap.

The drive sounds like it's in forward, just look underneath and see if the shift shafts are turned straight forward so they will slide apart when pulling the drive.

Here are links to download the OEM manuals for your engine and drive. Vet you ordered a Seloc or Clymers manual. What a waste of money.

http://www.4shared.com/office/mRjamBOE/03__Engines__All__78-84.html?
http://www.4shared.com/office/L17_ufPa/06__Drives_R-A1_83-90.html?

 

[ngoodart]

Re: 2.5L 4cyl Starting problems

Point taken, Thanks for all the help. I will tell the wife to cough up some more cash LOL..... Thanks for the links on the manuals I appreciate that. Im going to order the tune up kit with cap, new plug wires, plugs, what are your thoughts on replacing the coil? it appears to have the original on it still or would that be un-necessary? Going to work on pulling the drive tonight then to get ready for the cable when it shows up.

 

[Don S]

Re: 2.5L 4cyl Starting problems

If it works, and in good shape, why replace it?

 

[ngoodart]

Re: 2.5L 4cyl Starting problems

Good point, just trying to cover all my basis with one order. It is inevitable though you never get EVERYTHING that you need the first time. Thanks agian for all your guidance, will post agian after repairs are complete or if I have any other questions.

 

[ngoodart]

Re: 2.5L 4cyl Starting problems

OK guys need some more guidance,
got home tonight after a trip to autozone to get a real spark tester and to pick up my own compression tester. So I started to go through the ignition system point by point and this is what I found:
1. + side of coil meter connected to - on battery reads 10.6 VDC, weird part moved meter probe to - side of coil reads the same 10.6 VDC??? somethings not quite right there I'm thinking.
2. using new fancy spark tester (sure beats the hold the spark plug game) No spark out of the coil.
3. Noticed water coming out of the bottom of the bell housing by the starter?? Crap :facepalm:
4. Tried to bump the starter from the ignition switch on the dash nothin... used bypass switch (very handy) and it would turn over. Seems very sluggish though with a plug out you can hear the hiss of compression from the cylinder about once every 3-5 seconds while turning over. This I think Im going to chock up to the out drive being locked in gear (waiting on replacement lower shift cable to be able to get this thing out of gear and get more RPM out of the starter) Or am I way off on that?

Any words of wisdom? I'm thinking I need to order a coil to go along with the new plugs/wires/cap/rotor/points/condensor...oh and the lower shift cable.

Thanks for all the help.

 

[Don S]

Re: 2.5L 4cyl Starting problems

3. Noticed water coming out of the bottom of the bell housing by the starter?? Crap

I think you better stop ordering parts. Pull the engine, remove the flywheel and see if you have a cracked block or the core plug popped out. I would also be looking for cracks in the block just below the head and behind the manifold.

 

[ngoodart]

Re: 2.5L 4cyl Starting problems

OK I think I understand where you are coming from on that one. But would water in the engine present itself as well with milky engine oil if the block was cracked or similar ifther was water invasion from the drive? After I read your post Don I i have been working on getting the drive off and the oil in it is a dark brown color and I checked the engine oil as well and it is dirty but doesn't show signs of water in the oil. It did rain quite hard last night and I have the cover off the boat while working on it and the PO rebuilt the cowling and it doesn't quite cover everything. He aslo removed the rear seats and the inside of the transom is completely exposed so I am puzzled as to how that water got up in there. It wasn't much maybe 1/4 cup and it stopped. I also have had muffs on the engine while troubleshooting the ignition issues and have not seen any water in the bilge.

Thoughts?? do I continue? I have a LED inspection camera and as soon as I get the drive off I will look inside the transom assy and as far inside the bell housing as I can get to see if I can find something obvious.

Thanks for all the help to this point, I really appreciate it.

Nick

 

[Eric 3.7LX Alpha 1]

Re: 2.5L 4cyl Starting problems

Have a look see at the attached photo, it shows the shift shafts on the drive.

If they are pointed straight it is in forward, and the prop would lock if you turn it CCW, ratchet CW (standing behind the boat looking at the bow)

If they are not straight, like in the pic, you will have to separate the halves of the drive first, then pull the upper half off the bellhousing.

See the video on separating the drive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfpasFN_g8w
he does it on a bench in video.

 

[Don S]

Re: 2.5L 4cyl Starting problems

the engine oil as well and it is dirty but doesn't show signs of water in the oil.

When it froze and popped that core plug out of the back of the engine (If that is why you have all the water) all the water would go out that hole and not into the block through a very tight crack. The cracks aren't going to leak until you get that big hole in the back fixed.
Then you need to pressure check the block to see if there are problems. But until you fix the known leak, you can't really check for other.

 

[ngoodart]

Re: 2.5L 4cyl Starting problems

Thanks for the infor Eric, I was able to verify that it is in forward so going to finish pulling the drive tonight. and change the oil in it while I wait for the ignition parts....Don I am not ignoring your advice on the possibility of the motor being cracked or the plug popping out its just not showing any other of the tell tale signs. Plus having the muffs on it and cranking the motor over I would think that there would be a fair amount of water coming out, there isn't. I will give the backside a closer inspection once I get the drive off. Agian I'm not ignoring your advice, I just think that there would be more water then there was if the core plug was out or a crack. But I will check anyway to be safe.

If I disconnect the inlet from the drive and supply water to the motor through the outlet from the T-stat if the core pulg is out I should see water running out of the bell housing correct, just a thought...

Thanks agian for your advice

 

[Don S]

Re: 2.5L 4cyl Starting problems

You aren't going to get much water on muffs while just cranking the engine. Hooking the hose up to the thermostat housing will work to see how bad the leak is in the flywheel housing, but really doesn't make sense to go to all the trouble. You can't run it like that, and you will be getting water in your starter each time you run it. So why not pull the engine and see what you have?

 

[ngoodart]

Re: 2.5L 4cyl Starting problems

Evening, well I got the drive off after a little bit of a fight but once I got it broke loose it came right out. Some good news finally at least the bellows and gimble bearing are good.
Don I know that you are stressing the core plug/possible crack. I checked everything that I can get to now and there are no visable cracks on the outside of the block around the manifold. I pulled off the T-stat housing and removed the t-stat. Checks good opens at 140 on the stove. re-assembled the housing with out the t-stat and stuck the hose in the inlet took a little inginuity to geta decent seal but it worked.... nothing coming out of the flywheel housing just out of the stern....I saran wrapped the section on th drive to keep water out of the drive bellows and the only place water came out was out of the lower section on the drive housing.... So that leads me to believe that the little bit of water that I did see come out of the flywheel housing wasn't from the engine. I know it was strongly suggested that I pull the motor to verify that the plug is intact and that there were not any cracks. But I don't have the equipment necessary to pull the motor out, I will monitor this very very closely to make sure I don't have any further signs of water in that same area agian. If I do see it agian I will figure out how to get the motor out.

So now what? where do I start with the igniton side issues? Is my coil bad or do I have other issues that I need to look at. Thanks agian for all yor help. Evening, well I got the drive off after a little bit of a fight but once I got it broke loose it came right out. Some good news finally at least the bellows and gimble bearing are good.
Don I know that you are stressing the core plug/possible crack. I checked everything that I can get to now and there are no visable cracks on the outside of the block around the manifold. I pulled off the T-stat housing and removed the t-stat. Checks good opens at 140 on the stove. re-assembled the housing with out the t-stat and stuck the hose in the inlet took a little inginuity to geta decent seal but it worked.... nothing coming out of the flywheel housing just out of the stern....I saran wrapped the section on th drive to keep water out of the drive bellows and the only place water came out was out of the lower section on the drive housing.... So that leads me to believe that the little bit of water that I did see come out of the flywheel housing wasn't from the engine. I know it was strongly suggested that I pull the motor to verify that the plug is intact and that there were not any cracks. But I don't have the equipment necessary to pull the motor out, I will monitor this very very closely to make sure I don't have any further signs of water in that same area agian. If I do see it agian I will figure out how to get the motor out.

So now what? where do I start with the igniton side issues? Is my coil bad or do I have other issues that I need to look at. Thanks agian for all yor help.

 

[ngoodart]

Re: 2.5L 4cyl Starting problems

bump

 

[ngoodart]

Re: 2.5L 4cyl Starting problems

SUCESS!!! It's Alive!!!
Well after replacing plugs/wires/points/condensor/coil...pretty much the entire ignition side..Cap and points were shot, coil was cracked, and wires just because She's alive. Now just to fine tune her up, verify the timing and tune the carb and we are about ready to go!!
Warmed her up and re-did compression check, 115-117-112-114 so I'm good there, not great but still acceptable. I found the source of my water that was coming out of the flywheel housing there was a "bandaind" fix I found when I pulled the outdrive off to fix shift cable. The PO didn't replace the water inlet o-ring just re-used it and slathered it with RTV. replaced the o-ring, anf tightened up the hose clamps. Replaced some dry rotted hoses and No more water in the bilge Yeah! Get her tuned up and a new shift lever in the lower unit and We are heading to the lake next weekend so I can do the final adjustments with a load on the motor. Thanks for your help guys, best to all!