1981 Citation Marquis restoration...

[Luposian]

When I de-capped mine, it seemed like the hull bowed outward coming from near where the floor attaches (at the chines). I did not build a cradle or do internal bracing - just crossed my fingers and restored the hull on my bunk trailer. I did take width measurements every foot immediately after decapping and when I was glassing in stringers, bulkheads, and the floor, I would use 1-2 ratchet straps to bring the boat back into shape before starting the glassing...even over-tightening the ratchet straps to make the hull about 1/2" narrower than the original dimension to counteract any spring-back. The most splay I ever saw was a little over 1 inch, I think. After glassing in the floor and letting it cure, I removed the ratchet straps and the hull held it's shape and was within 1/8" of where it started at each width measurement.

All that to say, I would listen to the other members and not worry so much about placement of the bracing...just make sure you brace the hull somehow, and you'll likely be fine.

Thanks. That gives me the confidence I need to proceed. With the braces screwed in from the outside, the hull won't be able to bow out (screws holding it against the wood) or flex in (the wood pushing against the hull). That was the intended outcome. I just needed enough reassurance it was truly good enough to work as intended.

 

[Luposian]

I've started removing the rubtrail aluminum track before I've installed the interior bracing. Any idea why? I was looking under the gunwale and suddenly noticed a lot more rivets poking through, than there were rivets on the rubrail track... the rubrail isn't holding the cap to the hull! There are rivets under the rub rail track holding the cap to the hull! I've finished removing the two transom quarter pieces. Now drilling out the area where the rivets were and discovering some don't go all the way through the cap and hull lip... or I can't seem to drill all the way through. And the rivets seems to be placed all over the place (even very close to the cap edge, like they were used to just tack on the cap). Can't make much sense of this boat's design/assembly. Very crude in places. Maybe that's why the company (Citation Boats) is no longer in business, while others are? Ugh! I've made a bit of a mess with some holes, but I'm filling them in with Marine Tex epoxy (or similar) anyway, later on, so not a big deal.

 

[Baylinerchuck]

Yep, welcome to boat repair. Most boats are put together this way, regardless of the brand.

 

[buxmj]

I haven't put my rubrail back on yet to tell you how many rivets connect it to the boat but I can tell you there are 100 rivets between the cap and the hull on my 14' boat. Also, the hull rivets are smaller than the rubrail rivets. The rubrail rivets pass through rubrail, cap and hull.

 

[Luposian]

I wanna know who the (!!!) did the cutting on this boat cap! I assume the cap is supposed to be even with that hull lip (see the thin glossy white line below the cap?). But the cut is so uneven, like it was done with a lousy jigsaw or something! This is one of about three of the worst sections. Ugh! I'm debating on patching the cap lip, so it's even. Or am I being too much of a perfectionist about it? Also, I'm not worried about any rivet holes being drilled out over size. They're all getting filled in anyways. The crazing (spider cracks) on the cap is ridiculous. No way to fix it. They're everywhere. I figure the most obvious ones can be rattle canned. The lost gelcoat (chips and pieces) can be filled in with a little epoxy and spray painted over. At the end of the day, "good enough" really will have to be good enough!

 

[todhunter]

I wouldn't sweat it, since it'll be covered by the rub rail. Brace yourself for further disappointment with OEM boat manufacturing practices as you continue to dig in.

 

[Luposian]

Well, got rid of all the cap rivets that had a little aluminum "pin" in them (which filled the little hole in the rivet). Made HUGE holes, to remove those buggers, having to go in at weird angles to get them drilled out. Those pins are impossible to get out, aren't they? My drill bit kept sliding off center while trying to get those rivets out What are those pins for anyways?

Then started cleaning out the space between the cap and hull with my wide metal spreader, removing dirt and silicone sealant. Had a couple places I had to hammer the blade against some remaining pieces of drilled out rivets. Fun! FUN! F U N !!! No, seriously! I'm loving every minute I work on my boat. Even being annoyed like crazy by things like aluminum rivet pins and remaining bits of aluminum rivets is fun. Because I'm getting closer and closer, step by step, to the next goal... which is cap removal!

Hose blasted the space between the cap/hull, to clean out any remaining dirt and loose detritus. So, now we can get back to measuring the hull for three more 2x2 braces! Yay!

Thankfully, I have the rubrail insert all in one piece. So no need to try and measure 5 individual pieces of aluminum rub rail track and add them up!

BTW, any suggestions as to what brand/kind of rub rail I should go with, when I come back to that point in this reconstruction? This was just a 5-piece aluminum rub rail track with a rusty brown-colored insert. So very 80's. It's about 1.25" wide and I don't think depth (how far it sticks out from the boat) really matters, but I think it was around 1" or so (track+insert).

 

[todhunter]

The "pin" in a blind aluminum rivet is the steel core used to mushroom out the back side of the rivet when you pull it to set it. The reason the drill bit walks off is because it's a steel pin inside of a soft aluminum rivet. Usually I take a small drift punch and a hammer and knock the pins out before drilling.

I'd probably look at Taco Marine for rub rail - they have a pretty extensive selection.

 

[Luposian]

The "pin" in a blind aluminum rivet is the steel core used to mushroom out the back side of the rivet when you pull it to set it. The reason the drill bit walks off is because it's a steel pin inside of a soft aluminum rivet. Usually I take a small drift punch and a hammer and knock the pins out before drilling.

I'd probably look at Taco Marine for rub rail - they have a pretty extensive selection.

Ok, thanks for clarifying that to me. That pin looked the same color as the aluminum rivet, so I assumed it was aluminum as well, and figured maybe it was harder aluminum than the rest or something. Yeah, if I knew what to use on those "pinned" rivets, I'd have done so, but I made do with what I could and got them out regardless... and will just fill in the holes with epoxy of one type or another, later on.

Yeah, kinda figured Taco Marine would be a go-to answer on Rub Rails (done enough research to see that they pop up alot on searches). How closely should I match the dimensions of the original aluminum rail track? That little L-shaped "lip" on the bottom, goes under the edge of the cap, but is that ever longer in some cases than others or is it a pretty standardized length, old or new, regardless of material used?

 

[Luposian]

Ok, resumed working on my boat yesterday. Weird how every now and then I just lose interest and stop working on it and then resume several months later. Don't know why... it just happens.

So, finally removed the remaining rivets and, because I'd already scraped the silicone between the hull and cap, the cap came up easily. None of initial lifting was done by anyone other than me. Getting the two 2x6x8's under the cap required my son's help. And, to get it REALLY jacked up, where I wanted it, I had to crawl under the bow step and "put my back into it" (literally) and raise it up, so my son could slide the 2x6x8 under the step lip (as shown). You can see the 1x2 we used at the transom, to keep the cap from trying to slide off the hull! Boy, what FUN! No, seriously! I'm loving every minute of this!

I'll finish cleaning up the bow, removing all the loose rivet and foam bits. After that, need to see about removing all the old foam around the gunwales. Is that stuff even bouyant or just sound/vibration dampening?

 

[Baylinerchuck]

Well it's buoyant if it's still closed foam and doesn't absorb water. It is also sound deadening. It also provides structure and rigidness to the hull which is necessary in some boats. Its a multifunctional must have in smaller boats.

 

[Scott Danforth]

remember 4 things

• boat builders do not use foam unless they absolutely have to
• usually they have to for both flotation and structure since they cheaped out elsewhere
• they use the absolute minimum amount of foam needed for both.
• they never care about sound

if there is foam, its needed.

 

[Luposian]

remember 4 things

• boat builders do not use foam unless they absolutely have to
• usually they have to for both flotation and structure since they cheaped out elsewhere
• they use the absolute minimum amount of foam needed for both.
• they never care about sound

if there is foam, its needed.

Would it be advisable to dig out the old stuff and put new in? The stuff that was under the floor was as brown as pumpernickle bread, but dry and crunchy like... I have no idea! But it sure didn't seem good. This stuff under the bow cap at least looks like it's just aged, old foam. But does foam ever weather to poor functionality? Given how the engine was seized and rusted, and how rotted the plywood was in the floor and transom, I'm thinking this boat was sunk or left in a seriously water-logged state for a long time The only thing salvagable was the hull and cap! Seriously. Well, and the windshield (no cracks or damage) and the bow seats/cushions (for templating new ones from). I could have salvaged the steering, but decided I'd rather start with all new stuff anyways.

I'm thinking the foam is mainly for cap bow support/rigidity, as the fiberglass may be thinner in the bow of the cap and given that people are sitting and moving around up in front. Keeps it from flexing/cracking. The bow section of the hull isn't made lighter by adding foam, is it? The foam is only under the cap bow (gunwale), not in the actual bow of the hull, so I don't see how it would add that much flotation value. There is only a thin layer of foam under the steps, so that has to be for sound deadening, so people with shoes or whatever dont "clomp!" in that area. I'll get more pics underneath, now that the cap is jacked WAAAAAAAAY up!

 

[briangcc]

My thinking....you're in this far already, use new foam. Guys/gals have been using 2 part pour in foam in their restos.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Would it be advisable to dig out the old stuff and put new in?

yes.

the best tool I found for removing old and prep'n for new is a 4" cup brush in a grinder or a cup brush on a drill extension.

turns the foam to dust, then if there is trapped water it will be a wet dust. allow to dry overnight if needed and vacuum up with your shop vac.

for big pieces, I have used an old carving knife to cut out big chunks as well.

 

[Luposian]

Well, here are some pics... and the way the foam was applied doesn't make logical sense. For example... there is a thin layer of foam on the Starboard side of the bow steps, not the Port side. There is foam in the Port gunwale, but not the Starboard. Both sides have the same plywood reinforcement, so it's not for stability. The foam in the cap bow front is uneven, like it was just sloppily dumped there. And why is there a loop/tube under the step? Any idea what it was meant for? Nothing was going through that, when I got the boat and tore everything out.

And, of course, I noted that all cleat and rail screws/bolts are simply straight through the fiberglass with no further reinforcement. How seriously shoddy! I'm gonna hafta fix that! :-D

 

[Baylinerchuck]

Well, here are some pics... and the way the foam was applied doesn't make logical sense. For example... there is a thin layer of foam on the Starboard side of the bow steps, not the Port side. There is foam in the Port gunwale, but not the Starboard. Both sides have the same plywood reinforcement, so it's not for stability. The foam in the cap bow front is uneven, like it was just sloppily dumped there. And why is there a loop/tube under the step? Any idea what it was meant for? Nothing was going through that, when I got the boat and tore everything out.

And, of course, I noted that all cleat and rail screws/bolts are simply straight through the fiberglass with no further reinforcement. How seriously shoddy! I'm gonna hafta fix that! :-D

Welcome to the wonderful world of manufactured boats!!

 

[Luposian]

Welcome to the wonderful world of manufactured boats!!

Well, that's a nice sentiment, but I was hoping for an explanation of "why" the manufacturer did that. Assuming there is any reason or logic to it at all.

 

[Baylinerchuck]

Most of the why’s in assembly line boats can be summed up to time and money. Why do they use chop guns over hand laid glass? Why roving instead of 1708 and CSM? Why aren’t the stringers better fit with a 1/4” gap and filled with thickened resin and chop? Why are there voids in the pourable foam that could had easily been filled? All I was saying is that you’ll uncover a lot of ugly and shoddy workmanship when you dig in. We have all scratched our heads and wondered why our boats were built the way they were. We stand back and think wow, I would have done it this way. If the manufacturer built boats the way most of us restore them with a keen eye to detail they would add weeks to their builds and thousands of dollars in labor and materials. They would have basically priced themselves out of the market.

 

[kcassells]

So when you reset the cap you will need to drill out and pour the new foam. Good to hear from!