1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

[jasoutside]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

Yah, I am just trying to think outside the box here is all. I suppose I am wondering if they will really deflate? Will they shatter? Will they break? Will they crawl out from under my deck and fly away?

I guess when I have put out the recycling in the dead of winter I haven't noticed anything markedly different from when I put stuff out in the summer? Though, I haven't payed super close attention nor have I jumped on my Tide bottle to see if it bursts during the month of January.

I am certain that pool noodles were also outside the box at one time. I'd bet there are plenty of guys that would surely feel noodles are commonplace/mainstream now (me being one of them).

Just thinking out loud is all

 

[North Beach]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

Sorry if I ruined your day Jason I've just seen those posts before and I guess I should have said something then. I'm not trying to be any kind of flotation expert here. I just carry bottled water with me to the job and I know sometimes in the morning in the winter I'll climb in my truck and there sets the bottle all caved in Now I don't know if the bigger stuff like detergent bottles and such experience that kind of air loss, just thought I'd throw it out.

 

[djpeters]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

Why not pour in foam? And I say that after digging all mine out. But seriously why not? I know it sucks to take out, but when's the next time your going to redo the whole boat again...10, 20, 30 years? Will you even have it that long? I know it's been said it causes corrosion..maybe on salt water boats, I don't know, but there's NO corrosion in mine. As far as pool noodles go, those are going to leave a lot of air space under the deck which does nothing for helping flotation. If there were square pool noodles then I would think that's the way to go. Same with foam board, still going to be alot of air under the deck or a heck of a lot of fitting. Pour in isn't going to rattle, will sound deaden the hull some, and you'll get all the possible flotation under the deck. I'm not comfortable just putting noodles or foam board down there and "hopeing" it will flot the boat. To me if I replace what I take out the boat will have enough flotation. My $0.02.

 

[jasoutside]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

Sorry if I ruined your day Jason I've just seen those posts before and I guess I should have said something then. I'm not trying to be any kind of flotation expert here. I just carry bottled water with me to the job and I know sometimes in the morning in the winter I'll climb in my truck and there sets the bottle all caved in Now I don't know if the bigger stuff like detergent bottles and such experience that kind of air loss, just thought I'd throw it out.

Heck no you didn't ruin my day buddy! Quite the opposite! I really enjoy kicking around new ideas and different ways of doing things! Well, so long as in the end, it's a sound decision ya know.

If it's a dumb idea (any idea really) let's figure out why it's dumb, call it dumb, and come up with something better!

 

[ezmobee]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

To me if I replace what I take out the boat will have enough flotation. My $0.02.

Few of us had pourable foam in the boat when we started. It wasn't used until the 80's sometime. Whatever jason does will be a heck of a lot better than the strips of waterlogged white styrofoam the factory put in there. I know my hull has a HECK of a lot more noodleage than it did styro from the factory.

OEM:
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w200/ezmobee/New Boat/DSCF2225.jpg

Noodles:
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w200/ezmobee/New Boat/DSCF2378.jpg

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w200/ezmobee/New Boat/DSCF2383.jpg

 

[jasoutside]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

Why not pour in foam? And I say that after digging all mine out. But seriously why not? I know it sucks to take out, but when's the next time your going to redo the whole boat again...10, 20, 30 years? Will you even have it that long? I know it's been said it causes corrosion..maybe on salt water boats, I don't know, but there's NO corrosion in mine. As far as pool noodles go, those are going to leave a lot of air space under the deck which does nothing for helping flotation. If there were square pool noodles then I would think that's the way to go. Same with foam board, still going to be alot of air under the deck or a heck of a lot of fitting. Pour in isn't going to rattle, will sound deaden the hull some, and you'll get all the possible flotation under the deck. I'm not comfortable just putting noodles or foam board down there and "hopeing" it will flot the boat. To me if I replace what I take out the boat will have enough flotation. My $0.02.

Well DJ, I am with you on a couple of things and may part ways on others...

Boat rebuild and dig it out, nope not a concern for me. My hope is that I'll be dead and gone before this big girl gets rebuilt. Or at least a foot in the grave.

I am not really sweating the corrosion deal all that much either honestly. Maybe because I'm fresh water? Maybe because I'd have the drainage done properly? Either way, not concerned about that.

The thing that might just about sell me on pour in would be the sound deadening qualities and no rattles! Man I love that! Foam wins big here!

Now for filling the entire space sub deck, I'm not seeing that quite so much. The Baja I cut up had plenty of voids, some big ones too. That was one solid boat, really well built (I put it to the test too) but the foam did not fill the entire space. I have seen a bunch on iboats here that seem to have similar issues. Maybe it's the type of foam? Dunno. Your image is an awesome visual there but I am certain that I can smush (not crush, mind you) more noodles in as they are obviously flexible. Now, I'd certainly be able to fit more pour in sub deck but I also think at a weight increase with pour in vs. the noodle. So a wash? Maybe foam wins here, maybe not.

Installation is obviously easier with noodles. Budget wise I think noodles win too (am I right on that?). Noodle win and win.

Here is the biggie for me, deal maker/breaker if you will. Noodles will drain. Foam boards will drain with the correct cuts, fitting and placement. Pour in foam begs to slow down drainage. Eventually, if the water sits long enough, it'll soak into the foam rendering it far less useful than what it started out to be. Heavy, wet, inferior flotation properties? Mold, rot? Noodle wins big here!

Just one fellas thoughts!

 

[Huron Angler]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

A few things to add to this conversation...keep in mind that those two big fuel tanks are going to add quite a bit of flotation as well.

Even if they are topped off, gasoline is less dense than water so bouyancy will still be added(plus there is always air in the tanks too).

If the tanks are not full they would of course add tons of buoyancy if sealed up well. (do vents negate this? I assume they will not take on water)

Keeping lots of extra pfds all over the rig in various holds will be bonus flotation too.

Just some thoughts...

 

[jasoutside]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

A few things to add to this conversation...keep in mind that those two big fuel tanks are going to add quite a bit of flotation as well.

Even if they are topped off, gasoline is less dense than water so bouyancy will still be added(plus there is always air in the tanks too).

If the tanks are not full they would of course add tons of buoyancy if sealed up well. (do vents negate this? I assume they will not take on water)

Keeping lots of extra pfds all over the rig in various holds will be bonus flotation too.

Just some thoughts...

Too right Huron!!!! I was actually thinking that when I was dry fitting them a while ago! Forgot to mention that, well done bro!

If the water reaches to the vents that would be a very bad day wouldn't it.

You know what else would contribute would be my fish box/live well/cooler bench deal. Man it would take a lot to sink that big thing if it were empty!

Now I have been called dead weight for the bulk of my life, so, that extra flotation might be a wash. Bummer.

 

[Golden Arrow II]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

I don't want to start a fight or hi-jack, so if this has been covered before sorry.

Has anyone done a test to see how long a noodle will last in the marine conditions? Do they hold up to fuel getting on them?

Just a couple of the questions I have regarding the noodles.

 

[djpeters]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

Here is the biggie for me, deal maker/breaker if you will. Noodles will drain. Foam boards will drain with the correct cuts, fitting and placement. Pour in foam begs to slow down drainage. Eventually, if the water sits long enough, it'll soak into the foam rendering it far less useful than what it started out to be. Heavy, wet, inferior flotation properties? Mold, rot? Noodle wins big here!

Just one fellas thoughts!

Good points, but back to the fact that I just dug all this stuff out. My Boat is 30+ years old, was all original, the deck was still fairly solid (I didn't have to shovel it out) and the only wet foam was the bottom 2" right up front (where there is a leak i'm sure) in the keel. Out of all that foam, less than 5% was wet (None in the back). IF I do decide to put it back in, there won't be any down the keel, only outside the stringers (which I have 4). Under the gas tank had white planks which I would replace with foam board. Up front in the center I think I would lay in foam board as well because the shape wouldn't be too hard to match. This way the entire keel is open for drainage down the middle front to back. I just don't want to "hope it floats" if something bad happens, I want to know it floats.

I'm glad you brought this up Jason!

 

[ezmobee]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

Dave, I've actually been a big fan of the hybrid foam board/expanding foam solution for a while now for glass boats anyway.

 

[fshngho]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

alrighty then, my two cents
I think the problem with poured foam is once its installed it is very difficult to remove IF you had a bad rivet or drainage problems. Add to that it does absorb water to a degree. Then you have the noodles, which one could assume does not supply enough bouancy as shown in the drawing. What was missed is the noodles are compacted into the hull and you don't have as much 'wasted space' as explained. Bottles, packing air bags, and yes even 'peanuts" could be used. In this case I would put them in a plastic bag (that won't deteriate) and compact/install evenly.
How about this..spread some plastic out on the floor of the hull and then use poured foam. Once its set up, remove it, carve out drainage channels etc and then re install...custom fit. If or when its waterlogged, replace it. Or you can remove it for repair.
Jas, maybe you shoulda started another thread. Sorry to hijack.

 

[North Beach]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

Well I might as well add to the hijack.....

Guys I think there's probably pros and cons to just about anything you choose to use. At this point I'm not sold an my earlier assumption that the poured in place caused the aluminum rot in my Mariner. I'm leaning more towards trapped salt water.

I've removed the expanded polystyrene white foam (eps) from two boats and they were both dry (66 & 75). But I do know, based upon my line of work (commercial roofing consultant for the last almost 20 years and many years as a commercial roofer prior to that) that the eps will absorb moisture when the moisture heats up and turns to vapor. There are many roofing systems out there failing with waterlogged eps. So I won't be using any of that.

I don't have any experience with the pool noodles but I've heard rumours that they break down over time even in the dark. I don't know if it's true because the danged things are designed to be used out in the sun and we all know what sun does to styrenes. It eats them. so I don't really think anyone has tested them along those lines. So there's enough of an unknown to steer me clear.

When I removed the eps foam from the liquid limo I knew enough about the lasting and water/vapor properties of the extruded polystryene to know that is what I wanted to use. That's just what I knew was available and I had enough of a comfortable feeling about it to use it. It doesn't close off the limbers and as long as the sun don't touch it, it will last close to forever. Also the water vapor/heat/absorbing problem isn't there. Also, once I got all the floor in, glassed and vinyled, I don't hear the squeeking sounds anymore.

I really like working and scheming on these boats as a hobby but what I don't like is removing and replacing the floor, so I'm hoping that I only have to do it once in any of the boats I redo.

I'm not knocking the noodles, I just don't know enough about them to use them.

 

[ezmobee]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

How about this..spread some plastic out on the floor of the hull and then use poured foam. Once its set up, remove it, carve out drainage channels etc and then re install...custom fit. If or when its waterlogged, replace it. Or you can remove it for repair.
Jas, maybe you shoulda started another thread. Sorry to hijack.

Check out the Bobsglasstream thread I linked. That's exactly what he did, and quite expertly at that.

 

[djpeters]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

One other thing I forgot to mention about my foam, there was not one sqaure inch of space under the deck that did not have foam. That stuff oozed into every nook and cranny.

Ez...I have been pondering the hybrid approach since you mentioned it last week. I believe that will be the way I go, probably lay a piece down on the bottom and another vertically next to the stringer and fill the rest with pour in.

Jas...maybe you can start a discussion about paint too and we can figure out how to make paint stick forever AND look good. I still need to figure that out.

I'm done now.

 

[CheapboatKev]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

One other thing I forgot to mention about my foam, there was not one sqaure inch of space under the deck that did not have foam. That stuff oozed into every nook and cranny.

Ez...I have been pondering the hybrid approach since you mentioned it last week. I believe that will be the way I go, probably lay a piece down on the bottom and another vertically next to the stringer and fill the rest with pour in.

Jas...maybe you can start a discussion about paint too and we can figure out how to make paint stick forever AND look good. I still need to figure that out.

I'm done now.

I was going to say powdercoating...then read PC breaks down in UV conditions after 5 years or so....dang.

Maybe Electrostatic? Hook up yer car battery to the spray gun, with the positive cable in front o da nozzle, and ground the alum hull...


ok I am kidding

 

[North Beach]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

OK Jason, we're done using your thread for a long bs session. You can go back to work on the boat now.

BTW Dave. Anywhere that poured in touches the board it's gonna melt the board

 

[Triton II]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

Maybe Electrostatic? Hook up yer car battery to the spray gun, with the positive cable in front o da nozzle, and ground the alum hull...


ok I am kidding

Hey Kev, great idea. And do it in saltwater and watch your boat turn into an alkasaltzer!

Yes... I'm kidding too!

TII

 

[ezmobee]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

Hey Kev, great idea. And do it in saltwater and watch your boat turn into an alkasaltzer!

Yes... I'm kidding too!

TII

Gonna need some zincs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[jasoutside]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

Hey dudes, post away! I think the discussions are great for all of us! Me especially! I'm out of town for a couple days (typing on my phone gets lame quick) so I'll hit yall back when I'm on the puter again.