1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

[Golden Arrow II]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

Why is it unsafe?I used bolt on battery terminals.All of those terminals were crimped and soldered with a torch,then heat shrinked.There were no splices.I've seen boat builders do it from the factory and coach builders do it religiously.

These are taken out of the national electrical code book.

Ampacity- The current, in amperes, that a conductor can carry continously under the conditions of use without exceeding its temperature rating.

Overcurrent- Any current in excess of the rated current of equipment or the ampacity of a conductor. It may result from overload, short circuit, or ground fault.

Overload- Operation of equipment in excess of normal full-load rating, or of a conductor in excess of rated ampacity that, when percists for a sufficient length of time, would cause damage or dangerous overheating. A fault such as a short circuit or ground fault, is not an overload.

I'm not wanting to start a fight with you, but using undersized condutors for anything is not safe, even if you double them up. If one of those wires are damaged, shorts out and burns up then your in an overcurrent condition on the other wire. Then you will find out really quick (probably within a few seconds of the damage to the first wire) why this should not be done. When your out on the water you can't just get out and walk away like you can in a car, help isn't as close either. I said in my last post, wiring is one of those things not to cheap out on, I meant that. Spend the money and DO IT RIGHT THE FRST TIME.

Rant off.

 

[jasoutside]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

I'm not wanting to start a fight with you

Yah sorry, no fighting allowed in Jas' Islander Rebuild thread...

Only smack talkin (directed towrds glassers is fine) and discussions regarding the 4 food groups: Pizza, Hamburgers, Cake, and Meat (Cow, Oink, Fish, Fowl).

If we must discuss boats than so be it.

 

[Golden Arrow II]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

Jay you should make both of your seat base's match. Then you won't have to buy one of those high dollar pedistals and mount's. You could kill two birds here, more storage under the seat that would be wasted space with the pedistal, and a back rest for the other seat. Kick it around a little.

I must have missed your phone call on when to come and get that kicker motor.

 

[ben2go]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

These are taken out of the national electrical code book.

Ampacity- The current, in amperes, that a conductor can carry continously under the conditions of use without exceeding its temperature rating.

Overcurrent- Any current in excess of the rated current of equipment or the ampacity of a conductor. It may result from overload, short circuit, or ground fault.

Overload- Operation of equipment in excess of normal full-load rating, or of a conductor in excess of rated ampacity that, when percists for a sufficient length of time, would cause damage or dangerous overheating. A fault such as a short circuit or ground fault, is not an overload.

I'm not wanting to start a fight with you, but using undersized condutors for anything is not safe, even if you double them up. If one of those wires are damaged, shorts out and burns up then your in an overcurrent condition on the other wire. Then you will find out really quick (probably within a few seconds of the damage to the first wire) why this should not be done. When your out on the water you can't just get out and walk away like you can in a car, help isn't as close either. I said in my last post, wiring is one of those things not to cheap out on, I meant that. Spend the money and DO IT RIGHT THE FRST TIME.

Rant off.

Yes but the load can be carried by two smaller conductors just as easy.Two 2/0 cables have more conductor strands than a single 4/0 cable.The part using the power will draw equally through each conductor.

 

[jbcurt00]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

This was posted elsewhere, under the Electrical Forum, maybe it will be helpful.

Wiring Gauge, Load & length calculator

I won't disagree w/ either offered opinion. They both seem to have merit & seem to have been reached with sound reasoning.

Snow is still falling! But maybe just be blowing out of the trees too.

 

[Golden Arrow II]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

Yes but the load can be carried by two smaller conductors just as easy.Two 2/0 cables have more conductor strands than a single 4/0 cable.The part using the power will draw equally through each conductor.

Yes that is true in theory, I never said that they couldn't handle the load together. I said it isn't the correct way to wire. If one of those wires are damaged you will have a problem pretty quick. How many corroded battery cables or terminals have you seen in your day? Probably a couple and that right there can be enough resistance for one of the wires to take on more of a load than the other and become overloaded and fry. If something is wrong and you don't catch it before you hit the key you won't have a chance to stop what will happen, the damage will be done faster than you can blink. I hope that you never have that problem on your boat.

 

[Grandad]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

Yah, I'll need one black at 22' and one red at 22'. That seems long and expensive, yikes! It might end up being closer to 20' but I'd rather have it long than short eh..

Jas - It's always best when designing an electrical system to place your heavy loads and your power source close together. That said, when you must run heavy current such as engine starting a long distance, it's necessary to use what would otherwise be considered "oversized" conductors to avoid voltage drop. Too much drop and you'll find your starter struggling and at the same time your spark not quite as hot. I would try the welding cable route to find adequate size of single conductors. Welding cable has an extra benefit of being fine stranded which makes it easier to route. It's also very durable.

By the way, using 2 conductors per line is a widely accepted procedure under the National Electrical Code and the Canadian Electrical Code. Properly installed, it is no more dangerous than single conductor cabling. Your enemy is heat. If you have a bad connection such as from corrosion, the cable (or more typically a terminal) can get extremely hot where the conductivity is reduced. It wouldn't matter whether the circuit had one or two conductors, any bad connection will overheat. If you use 2 conductors in "parallel" as it is termed, to properly divide the current to minimize normal temperature rise, the 2 cables must be identical in length and should terminate at the same point using identical terminals or a twin connection terminal. Paralleled conductors are typically cut to identical lengths even before beginning the install. When you terminate them, cut identical amounts of excess cable off of each so they equitably share the current.

Others may have differing opinions based on their backgrounds and I'm sure they are well-meaning. I'm a retired electrical inspector, now teaching apprentice electricians their trade, so I speak with confidence, not to argue. - Grandad

 

[proshadetree]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

No smack talk about beer can boats? Thats hurtful Jas.

 

[jasoutside]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

Jay you should make both of your seat base's match. Then you won't have to buy one of those high dollar pedistals and mount's.

Yah, that was my original plan actually but since I changed up the design a bit the value of the bump up piece will be very minimal. I didn't mention this before but I also want to have the helm seat on a slide which makes that height even smaller. I think the pedestal should work great for that spot.

Though, dopey me, I sold four brand spanking new Wise pedestals when I figured I didn't need them, rats!:facepalm:

Jas - It's always best when designing an electrical system to place your heavy loads and your power source close together. That said, when you must run heavy current such as engine starting a long distance, it's necessary to use what would otherwise be considered "oversized" conductors to avoid voltage drop. Too much drop and you'll find your starter struggling and at the same time your spark not quite as hot. I would try the welding cable route to find adequate size of single conductors. Welding cable has an extra benefit of being fine stranded which makes it easier to route. It's also very durable.

Yah I hear ya Grandad...

Here is the question I have now...

Let's just say I'm going with a 15' run instead of a 22' (you'll see why in just a minute, video upload in progress)?

Can I now use 2 awg? Or, do I need to go to 1 awg? I can't imagine there would be a need to go to 1/0 awg.

No smack talk about beer can boats? Thats hurtful Jas.

Bah, now who in the world would want to talk smack about alum boats

Nope, can't think of anybody....

 

[jasoutside]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

K, check it out, made a couple of decisions...

That's right, ring up the marine grade police and tell em to haul me away

 

[jasoutside]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

Fish line in place ready to pull batt cables through

Now, so, at 15', what size do I need? 2 AWG? 1 AWG? Bigger maybe (nah, I don't think so)?

 

[Pmccraney]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

Who's the clean-shaven dude, sans snow hat, in a tie? He looks and talks just like you, and is apparently more adept at running sub-deck lines...

I'm still learning about things such as voltage drop and bus bars, but was think the shorter run might mean less drop and you might could use a smaller gauge and save a little more coin. Also, if you are using a batter switch and ACR, I guess those will be housed right there by your batts?

I'm think about using multiple gas tanks in my rig; I'm going to go back and read your thread on those parts, and then I may want to visit with you on how you are going to hook those up...

Have a nice day.
~rpm

 

[bear_69cuda]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

Just me but I'd run 1/0 AWG minimum for 15' run... Especially for starting battery...

 

[jasoutside]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

Who's the clean-shaven dude, sans snow hat, in a tie? He looks and talks just like you, and is apparently more adept at running sub-deck lines...

Ha! Yah, on Monday I always scrape the face and throw a tie on. I've dubbed em "all business Monday's". From here, it just goes downhill. By the end of the week I look like I escaped from somewhere with high fences

I'm still learning about things such as voltage drop and bus bars, but was think the shorter run might mean less drop and you might could use a smaller gauge and save a little more coin. Also, if you are using a batter switch and ACR, I guess those will be housed right there by your batts?

Yup, I'll have a switch right there in the box next to the batteries. I did a lot of reading on the ACR. I've recently decided to go with just a simple switch rather that the ACR deal. I kinda feel like the use and setup of power on my rig doesn't quite warrant going to an ACR in addition to the switch.

I'm think about using multiple gas tanks in my rig; I'm going to go back and read your thread on those parts, and then I may want to visit with you on how you are going to hook those up...

Have a nice day.
~rpm

Cool! Yah, if you look back at the setup I'm only about 1/2 of the way through the total rigging for the fuel system. I still have the senders, the three way valve, and all the wiring to install yet. Stay tuned on that stuff.

Just me but I'd run 1/0 AWG minimum for 15' run... Especially for starting battery...

Ah rats! Really? Shoot, I'm super glad I'm not going with tinned wire! Sheesh does batt wire add up fast

 

[jbcurt00]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

This was posted elsewhere, under the Electrical Forum, maybe it will be helpful.

Wiring Gauge, Load & length calculator

Run the calcs for your setup & length, 2 or 1ga

 

[jasoutside]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

Run the calcs for your setup & length, 2 or 1ga

Yah, I tried that JB - not sure if it's all the bricks to the head or what but it doesn't seem to want to give me any results. I may very well be putting wrong calcs in:redface:

 

[jbcurt00]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

Sorry, I didn't run it because I didn't know enough about your setup... Webpage loaded, & I was able to accept acknowledgement & get access to the fill in the box calculator. I seemed to be working, so I did a mockup calc just now & no output....Odd... Don't remember which thread had it under the electrical forum, but it be nice to post there & see if anyone else got it to work.

Anyway:

Try these:

1
2
3 <<-- this is actually a link to a site w/ a downloadable wire calc program. I have downloaded it, but not installed it yet, nor run any calcs.... I do not deem it a 'safe' file, or to be virus free, but it did get scanned before being saved on my computer. The zipped program didn't cause any A/V flags or problems....
​

4 <<--Marine wire supplier that has been mentioned on iBoats before & supplied the chart of wire colors & 'standard' applications that has been passed around.

​

Hope that helps

Ya, you clean up pretty good for a bottom feeding Tinny guy

Once a week whether you need it or not right.....

​

 

[GT1000000]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

One of my suppliers, I can't get hold of yet, the other will let me know something this PM...
I figured to check on the price for all the following; figured why not, somebody else might need something different...
4AWG
2AWG
1AWG
1/0AWG
2/0AWG

If there are any other requests, let me know...

And I undercomprende that you are down to about 15 feet of each color??? right?...
Okiedokie...

 

[jasoutside]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

OK, so I spent a big hunk of time looking at charts, calculating, emailing pros/companies, and I have come up with a variety of answers for proper gauge batt cables.

2, 1, 1/0, 2/0

:facepalm:

I know it's better to go bigger but the difference between 2 and 2/0 is quite a bit (especially $$ wise).

Ah well, I'll get it figgured.

GT - Yah, my quick/rough measurement says 15' run (15 of black and 15 of red).

 

[Grandad]

Re: 1976 22' Starcraft Islander Rebuild

OK, so I spent a big hunk of time looking at charts, calculating, emailing pros/companies, and I have come up with a variety of answers for proper gauge batt cables. 2, 1, 1/0, 2/0:facepalm:

Jas - I don't have enough time just now to help much, but I feel your pain. ABYC specs maximum voltage drop at 10% for non-critical loads. I'm not sure yet whether they consider engine starting as critical. If it is defined that way, then the voltage drop maximum is only 3%. If you want to get a logical understanding, consider this: What minimum size cable would an OEM install for the usual 4 or 5 ft run of cable? Tripling the distance triples the voltage drop. Tripling the original conductor size gets you back to the original conductor resistance and hence original design voltage drop. Are you sure you can't locate the batteries near the engine? - Grandad