1970's Aluminum Mckenzie Cherokee Runabout Rebuild

[jhendery]

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Got a bunch of things done today.

Noodles cut and positioned.



The bow pieces need to be cut



Splashwell rivet install



and



and cmc



pleased

 

[jhendery]

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Just curious what size rivets folks are using for 3/4" decks?

The ribs in La Boat run horizontal between port and starboard. And the 3/4" deck is laid on 1/8" thick aluminum ribs.



Other options aside from rivets?

 

[jigngrub]

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Rivets and stainless steel self tapping screws are the norm for decking, aluminum rivets are much cheaper. You'll use the open end rivets for the decking, because they don't make closed end that long. I like the 1/4" diameter and at least a 1" grip range, if you can find a 1-1/8" grip range that'll work too. When working with the long rivets the primary concern is making sure your grip range is long enough and you don't have to worry about the mandrel breaking off and leaving a nub on the top of the rivet because it breaks off deep down inside of the rivet at the bottom of the 2 materials you're working with.

I'd like to see more foam than that in your bilge, you can never have too much foam. Fill it up to the top of the ribs/bottom of the deck. If you ever start taking on water you'll be glad you did.

 

[jhendery]

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Thanks for dropping by Jig.

Interestingly enough I found another thread asking the same question.

http://forums.iboats.com/boat-resto...ze-3-4-deck-where-get-them-online-595328.html

And in that thread you provided a detailed response concerning rivet dimensions for a 3/4" deck. Awesome information!

Just curious which method is better - rivets or self tapping stainless steel?

And thanks for the foam suggestion. I am not finished and will be squeezing as much as possible below the deck.

BTW - I am going to read-up on your Tracker thread. Great work all around!

 

[jigngrub]

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Just curious which method is better - rivets or self tapping stainless steel?

They're both good.

Rivets are a lot cheaper than ss screws, but rivets are a one time use only when the screws can be removed and used again.

Rivets are better for decks with marine vinyl or a paint on product deck finish, screws will twist the vinyl as the head buries up and if you drive the screw too deep on a painted surface it will allow water intrusion into the decking.

Screws are better for a carpeted deck because the heads are smaller and they'll hide in the carpet knap for a concealed look, but still accessable.

I personally am a firm believer in exposed deck fasteners on an aluminum boat so the decking can be removed at any time without messing up the deck finish. Quite a few people like to fasten their decking down and cover the fasteners up with a putty mix and then put their deck finish over that... but if they ever have to remove the decking for repairs or modifications they have to tear up their deck finish and then find the dang fasteners they covered up, that's just not a good plan in my book.

I can drill the heads off the rivets holding the decking down in my boat and do anything I want or need to do below deck and then lay the decking back down and install new rivets and no one will ever know I had to remove my deck and I won't have to buy and install new and expensive deck finish materials... but that's probably just me.:watermelon:

 

[Grandad]

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Jeff, I'd use rivets, not ss screws. The screws won't hold as tightly when the boat shivers and flexes on every wave. The floor is part of the structure that stiffens the vessel, so every fastener is important. Aluminum doesn't hold a coarse thread that will last and screws will become loose. Trying to get them tighter will just strip the aluminum threads. You could use a fastener called a rivnut that "rivets" a threaded socket for a threaded bolt, but it means drilling a much larger hole drilled into the rib. Although they are commonly found in aluminum, you can get them in other alloys that'll require a stronger installation squeeze. Probably expensive in stainless. See 800-236-3200 Cardinal Components - Your source for Rivnut? engineered fasteners and installation tools.

If you don't "plan" to need access to the bilge, I wouldn't worry about having the fasteners show. I needed to access the bilge only after 40 years at which time the Nautolex needed replacement anyway. Having rebuilt the hull and added flotation superior to the OEM product, I figure it's good for at least another 40 years. My plans don't include removing the floor again in my lifetime. - Grandad

 

[jhendery]

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Thanks Jig and GD for your comments.

I am going with Aluminum w/steel mandrel, open-end pop rivets with the following dimensions. Do these look about right?

Rivet Diameter (in.) 1/4
Grip Range (In.) 0.816 - 1.000
Head Diameter (in.) H 0.500
Length Under Head (in.) L 1.240

https://www.acklandsgrainger.com/AG...oductDetailDisplay.do?item_code=POPAD816BS200

Have a good one eh!

 

[jigngrub]

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Yep, looks good J. Do you have the heavy duty rivet setting tool for the 1/4" dia. rivets?

I should have asked this earlier and maybe you've said somewhere in this thread but I've forgotten what kind of deck finish do you intend to install? If it's carpet, it will add extra thickness and those rivets may be too short if you plan to rivet through the carpeting too.

When you start riveting the decking down it's best to start in the middle of the piece with the hole between your feet so all of your weight is placed directly over where you're going to install the rivet. This will give you a secure installation and ensure your plywood is down flat against the ribs in case your decking is a little warped or cupped. Work the center out to the edges and when you're done your decking will be solid and secure.

 

[InMotion]

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

+1 on the Rivets there J. I also went the vinyl route but counter sunk mine so that the vinyl laid flat. Glad to hear you are going to bring the foam to level with the bottom of the floor.... it gives additional support to the floor --- surprising amount actually.

Bracing looks really sharp by the way... looks nice and rigid.

Jim

 

[jhendery]

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Yep, looks good J. Do you have the heavy duty rivet setting tool for the 1/4" dia. rivets?

I should have asked this earlier and maybe you've said somewhere in this thread but I've forgotten what kind of deck finish do you intend to install? If it's carpet, it will add extra thickness and those rivets may be too short if you plan to rivet through the carpeting too.

Thanks Jig. A while back I picked up a heavy setting hand rivet tool from Harbour Freight. I will have to check but I am pretty sure it handles 1/4" no problem.

I am going to go with Nautolex vinyl to finish the deck.

+1 on the Rivets there J. I also went the vinyl route but counter sunk mine so that the vinyl laid flat. Glad to hear you are going to bring the foam to level with the bottom of the floor.... it gives additional support to the floor --- surprising amount actually.

Bracing looks really sharp by the way... looks nice and rigid.

Jim

Thanks Jim.

With all the rain the last while things have been stalled a wee bit. I think La Boat need to be turned around. I always have a collection of water at the bow since the driveway is not flat.

I may get at the foam today. And will pickup the deck rivets next week.

Have a nice Sunday folks!

 

[jhendery]

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

What adhesive is recommended to secure foam blocks to the center of the hull?

I am guessing that someone is going to say 5200 or 4200.

I have found the product pricey especially when the tube is partially used.

What other products are used to secure Styrofoam to aluminum?

 

[ben2go]

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

What adhesive is recommended to secure foam blocks to the center of the hull?

I am guessing that someone is going to say 5200 or 4200.

I have found the product pricey especially when the tube is partially used.

What other products are used to secure Styrofoam to aluminum?

I don't use anything.There's really no need if you're decking over it or building structure over it.It can't go any where and still provides floatation should the boat get holed or swamped.

 

[jhendery]

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

I don't use anything.There's really no need if you're decking over it or building structure over it.It can't go any where and still provides floatation should the boat get holed or swamped.

Thanks B2GO.

In La Boat the center pieces channel the water to the bilge area. Even though it's unlikely these pieces will become loose I'd like to ensure they don't.

Has anyone used adhesive to secure the Styrofoam to aluminum?

 

[jigngrub]

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Your best bet would be to use an expanding urethane foam to bond the blocks to the hull, and it's what I would use. The expanding will bond to the hull and foam with no ill effects to either. It'll also bond 2 foam blocks together.

Most places that sell the expanding foam have small 1 or 2 cubic foot kits for sale... or you can buy the canned foam like Great Suff. The Pond and Stone Great Stuff would be the best because it's made for water immersion:
GREAT STUFF™ Pond & Stone Concrete and Masonry Sealer

Just mix and pour or spray the foam to fill the gaps along the sides of your slabs of foam, if you want to bond more foam on top of those slabs just pour or spray foam on top of the bottom slab and place and press the other sheet on top of the bottom slab like making a sandwich.

Pour or spray your foam here:


iboats member tpenfield says he likes to use the Great Stuff to bond foam pieces together.

If you can find the mix and pour expanding foam it will be a lot cheaper than the canned foam.

 

[jhendery]

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Just mix and pour or spray the foam to fill the gaps along the sides of your slabs of foam, if you want to bond more foam on top of those slabs just pour or spray foam on top of the bottom slab and place and press the other sheet on top of the bottom slab like making a sandwich.

Thanks Jig.

I don't intend to fill those gaps around the center Styrofoam blocks. I am going to leave those gaps so water can drain into the bilge area.

I think someone else mentioned when all the Styrofoam is installed the pieces won't be able to move around much.

 

[jigngrub]

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Thanks Jig.

I think someone else mentioned when all the Styrofoam is installed the pieces won't be able to move around much.

Uh-huh, someone mentioned to me that the moon was made out of cheese.

The USCG mentions that when foam blocks are used for floatation they are to be secured to prevent movement in any direction:

Flotation Material Installation Requirements

a) Air Chambers


Air chambers shall maintain their integrity under pre-test conditioning and under flotation test conditions. They shall not leak when subjected to an internal air pressure test and shall not allow the ingress of water when submerged to at least a depth equal to that required in the flotation test.

b) Plastic Foam Blocks and Other Shapes


1) A method of identifying foam blocks and other shapes must be employed to assure that each boat gets the correct amount of flotation in the correct location.

2) Expanded polystyrene foam must not come in contact with uncured polyester resin or fumes.

3) Foam blocks and other shapes must be secured so that no movement in any direction occurs that will effect the flotation's performance.

4) Installation must be in a manner that will prevent:
•damage from occupant contact
•deterioration from exposure to direct sunlight
•damage from normal use of the boat.

5) The space provided for the installation of foam blocks must be large enough to prevent the necessity of using force that will deform the shape of the block during the installation process. Deformation will lower the volume, and therefore the total buoyancy, of the foam block.

That's from here:
Flotation - Flotation Materials

... but what do they know about boats eh?!

I understand about wanting to leave the side channels for drainage, and that's a good thing... but you can still fasten your foam down with the spray or pour foam.

Just spray or pour a couple of good sized globs down on the hull and place the foam on top of it and weight it down:


This will fasten your foam to the hull and provide the drainage you want, the best of both worlds.

 

[jhendery]

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Awesome! Thanks Jig.

*edit* I should add - Thank you for keeping me on track through this re-build process. Much appreciated!!!!

Another item to add to tomorrow's list. May sneak out at lunch and hit HD for sprayfoam and 1 or 2 pieces of 2" Styrofoam.

Supposed to be warming up and on spooky day reach a high of 16 or 17.

Maybe looking good to get the stern deck installed.

Have a good one folks!

 

[jhendery]

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Finally got the Styrofoam pieces cut and installed.

Found the pond and stone expanding foam at Home Hardware. As Jig suggested I sprayed large blots in the center and used a sold brick to hold everything in place.

Went to the HD this morning and picked up two 2" thick Styrofoam sheets.

And good thing I had a bunch of foam sitting around 1" thick. I used the 1" material to take-up unused space below the 2' Styrofoam.



Then cut to fit the 2" Styrofoam to fit between the ribs



Had some noodles left so I am using them at the bow



Then fit the stern deck into place for a temporary fitting



Went to pickup rivets Friday and the supplier didn't have them. Apparently they were short shipped all week. Guy said he would call and have Purolator delivery first thing Saturday am. No call and no Purolator. Wasn't surprised.

Will try again for the rivets this week and need to epoxy middle deck piece.

Have a good one eh!

 

[jhendery]

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Finally got a call from the supplier. Boy these rivets have proved difficult to source. Hopefully they should arrive in the next day or two.

I am going with 1/4" aluminum/steel mandrel, .816 - 1.000" grip range with .500 head.

Just curious if folks use 5200 when installing the deck? Not sure if it's necessary or not?

Have a good one eh!

 

[jigngrub]

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Re: 1970's 16 ft Aluminum Mackenzie Runabout Rebuild

Nah, that'll just make a mess and you don't need it.

Any water that gets on your deck needs to go directly to the bilge so it can be pumped out or drained when the boat is taken out of the water.

If the water on your deck doesn't have any way to get to the bilge you'll have a sloppy mess if you get caught in a storm and the weight of the water shifting on top of your deck could cause your boat to capsize... and that wouldn't be any fun at all.

... which brings us to the subject of a deck drain, if you don't have one and don't have a way for the water on deck to move quickly to the bilge you may want to consider installing one.

My boat came from the factory with one installed:

It's just a round hole in the deck with a grated cover to keep big debris from entering the bilge.

EDIT:

Never mind aboot the deck drain, I went back and see you have a deck well at the transom and that's the same thing.