1150 Link & Sync Question

[jakec]

I got this 1977 1150 elpt. It did not start on first attempt when I was at the lake switching trailers. Now I'm looking to get it to start. Compression is all +/- 5psi around 120psi. I have replaced internal harness. Carbs are not rebuilt (not by me at least). Speaking of which can anyone tell me about the cross over tube on the top of each carb? On every youtube video I see they have this passage blocked off?

I set the crank so no. 1 piston is at 5* before TDC. Engine does have an adjustable timing marker but the sticker and flywheel look untouched. I used a screwdriver to confirm TDC, although there seems to be a range of maybe 20* crank rotation with little detectable difference while the piston is transiting TDC.

Anyways, I got no spark at all when twisting the distributor so I removed the plate with the stop screws. I have a strong loud spark now. The spot where the spark actually occurs is retarded from where the stop screw was set (needs to be backed out). Also, the throttle pickup is not yet contacting the throttle arm at the time of spark. It is about to contact, but not close to moving the throttle arm.

I am gona go through the whole link & sync proccess tonight (I have read the FAQ page here on it). I guess I am kinda skeptical to proceed since the two things I just checked are both retarded, it makes me wonder if I'm doing something wrong, and they are already set correctly?

 

[jakec]

I ended up doing the rest of the procedure and everything seemed to work smoothly. The engine still did not start up though. I used the fast idle lever and choke. I cranked for about 5 seconds at a time about 10 or so times with a short pause in between.

There is a lot of gas visible when I pumped gas into the system then tried to start. There is gas on the exterior of the carbs. But I am not seeing a consistent drip anywhere. On a motorcycle when fuel comes out the idle intake ports I normally think flooding. But I can't see an overflow drain anywhere on these. Plus everything I've read about these engines would lead me to think the engine would still start if there was too much fuel?

Just wondering what I should do next, if I need to take the carbs off or anything else I can try first.

 

[Chris1956]

The way you time those is as follows.

Find TDC on top cylinder. Measure to top of piston. Add .464 inches to your measurement. Turn flywheel until piston is .464 + your measurement BTDC. Now set timing pointer to the .464" measurement on timing decal.

Now set flywheel to TDC and remove top of distributor pulley. Cast arrow should point to dot (or 3 dots), on timing decal. If not, remove timing belt and make it so.

Remove spark plugs #2 - #6. Install spark plugs in wires and ground them.

Put timing light on #1 spark plug and crank engine, ign on. Advance or retard throttle until spark is at 4-6* BTDC. Adjust finger on distributor collar to be ready to open carbs, but still carb is closed. Collar set screws loosen and the collar rotates to achieve idle pickup timing.

You should be able to install plate with set screws on it, and set Idle Pickup timing to that 4-6* BTDC, by not moving throttle. Lock set screw.

Advance throttle full. Use max spark advance set screw to achieve and lock at 21*BTDC.

Spark should be at correct time. As for carbs. If she wont run, they are likely next.

 

[jakec]

The 0.464" is to confirm the 4-6* on the flywheel sticker? I didn't do this method because I don't have a caliper or small ruler with me.

For the distributor pulley, I looked at the top of the top shield which has a rivet I believe which is on the opposite side of the arrow. If this not an accurate check? I can check again today. This confirms no one in the past has installed a new belt incorrectly?

Also I did not remove the other spark plugs, only #1. so it could be possible I don't have spark on all cylinders I guess.

Everything else in the write up I did do yesterday as described.

 

[jakec]

I also spoke to the guy that sold the outboard to me and he said that he did rebuild the carbs with new gaskets and intake gaskets.

 

[Chris1956]

The '464" measurement is to eliminate the uncertainty of timing at TDC. As you noted, the piston is at TDC for many degrees of flywheel rotation. The .464" offset, assures that TDC (and the TDC timing mark) is at the first point the piston stops. You really need to set the timing pointer, as they can easily move during operation.

4-6* BTDC is simply a reading on the decal. It has nothing to do with the .464" mark. You are trying to make sure the carbs are still closed, but ready to open at 4-6*TDC. When cranking the motor the timing fluctuates about 2*, hence the 4-6* range.

After you set the timing pointer to .464", at the appropriate spot, then set idle pickup timing and max spark advance. If you do not make sure the timing pointer is spot on, and the timing belt is installed properly, give up any chance to set the timing properly. Serious engine damage can occur.

 

[jakec]

Thank you. So I am finding the distance X from top of piston to the outside of spark plug hole at the BEGINNING of TDC. Then, take ruler out, add 464 and mark with tape. then rotate engine almost 360*, and stop where tape meets outside of spark plug hole?

Then set timing marker to point to 5* on flywheel.

Then confirm distributor pulley is pointing arrow toward crankshaft and 3 punched dots on flywheel.

QUESTION: The pulley cap has an index mark or rivet which is 180* opposite the arrow. And there is a window in the shroud for viewing it. Can I use this marking instead of the arrow?

 

[jakec]

also, is there a reason to remove all spark plugs or is that only to make spinning the engine easier?

 

[Chris1956]

You should get a service manual. The procedure is confusing when first attempted.

Post #7: You set the Timing pointer to .464, when the piston is .464 inches before TDC.
Then you set the engine to TDC and then set the timing belt to point to the dots on the decal.

Then you crank the motor with the timing light and set throttle at 4-6* BTDC. Now set distributor "finger" to open carbs at that point.

Then throttle to max and Set the max spark advance set screw to stop spark advance at 21*BTDC.

Post #8: You will be setting max spark advance. You do not want the engine to start.

 

[jakec]

Oh I see I didn't realize there was a 464 mark on the flywheel but I see it now.

1. 464 BTDC & set marker
2. 0* TDC confirm pulley position
3. 4-6* TDC set throttle pickup
4. Do remaining link & sync steps.

 

[jakec]

I want to get a manual but I can't find one that I don't have to pay ($15 just to download??). I'm used to the vintage honda world where they are all available for download on the forum. Is there a resource that I'm missing?

 

[jakec]

Ok. I made a tool to measure 464 BTDC. I did the test 10 or more times, readjusting my tool along the way to be more accurate on TDC. the marked 464 clearance was on the same piece of tape, so that measurement would stay the same as I moved the TDC.

Anyways, the more times I did the test the closer I got to the position of the marker. I am not able to see the flywheel from where I'm watching the tool in the spark plug hole so there's no bias from me. Finally the mark ended up lining up with the exiting marker position, and I was able to repeat this 2 more times. So I think that was correct.

However, the distributor rotor does not line up with the punched marks. It is retarded. So I guess someone has installed this belt wrong in the past.

 

[jakec]

Also, if the 464 mark was lining up correctly, my link & sync settings from yesterday should be correct I assume.

 

[jakec]

I think to line up the flywheel markings with the pulley I am gona have to be at 4-6* BTDC? Not zero TDC. In which case it was probably fine in the first place? That has it lining up with the punch marks on the flywheel as well as the index mark on the black piece of metal below the pulley.

 

[jakec]

I adjusted the choke butterflies to be tighter but not binding. I also checked for spark on all 6 wires (using the same plug on each wire to make it easier on myself). There's good spark all around. I can confirm fuel at all 3 carbs as I'm priming the bulb until it drips out of the carb throats.

I decided I'd try starting it again after reading a bunch about starting procedure on here. Unfortunately still no start. I'm cranking for 10 second bursts and it doesn't even make a sound like it wants to start.

Finally I tried some starter fluid because I wanted to see if I can rule out ignition. I sprayed the fluid then turned the key it with full choke and fast idle lever maxed. It started right up. I let it run because the carbs are full of fuel so I thought it may keep going, but it died after about 15 seconds and would not restart again after that. So I guess my problem is fuel related.

 

[jakec]

I removed carbs and fuel pump.

 

[merc850]

Check this

Did you rebuild the fuel pump(s)?

 

[jakec]

Guy who sold it to me who was like a broker basically, he rebuilt the carbs and the fuel pump. I am gona re-rebuild both to verify the work.

Since I know there was definitely a good amount of fuel delivered by the primer bulb (dripping out mouth of carbs) I'm guessing it's gona be something like a clogged jet or passageway. But I will check everything

 

[Chris1956]

If she starts and runs after applying starting fluid, and then dies, the carbs are not supplying fuel.

I think you really should get a service manual.

 

[jakec]

Would anyone be willing to email me a copy?