WHy don't people buy Proper Tow Vehicles?

[timdan94]

Re: WHy don't people buy Proper Tow Vehicles?

I guess I'm an idoit then for towing a 15 ft boat with a subaru legacy which is well within the towing capacity of the car

 

[Maclin]

Re: WHy don't people buy Proper Tow Vehicles?

Yes timdan, totally not safe. You need to chance one more tow and take it to my house and I will let you know where to meet me for boating....


Neat boat, I like it even with the Force (old Chrysler man here)....

 

[timdan94]

Re: WHy don't people buy Proper Tow Vehicles?

I picked it up for $1000 and it included the bimini top and all the covers so that I can cover the entire boat with canvas and still use it...

 

[reelfishin]

Re: WHy don't people buy Proper Tow Vehicles?

It is the physics thing, it's obvious you don't understand the difference so let me explain.

In a semi-truck + trailer configuration at least half of trailer+cargo weight is distributed over the tandem axles of the tractor thus shifting force vector caused by momentum toward the center of gravity of the tractor vehicle. This fact alone makes it a much more stable platform to handle large trailer mass. This arrangement is also known as fifth wheel, during the deceleration trailer tends to push down on the tow vehicle and increase it's friction with the road surface. In addition the integrated compressed air break system is much more more powerful and responsive relative to what typical surge brake.

In a typical recreational tow behind configuration, the force vector of the trailer is parallel to the direction of forward velocity. When applying breaks the momentum of the trailer pushes the tow vehicle in a straight line relative to the trailer's motion. This presents a bigger problem when tow vehicle is changing direction of travel such as curves on the highway or emergency maneuvering to avoid road hazard while applying brakes. The trailer will apply force on tow vehicle in a lateral direction relative to the tow vehicle forward velocity. The lighter the vehicle's mass relative to the mass of the trailer, the less force it will require for the rear tires to loose grip and slide sideways. Once the rear tires loose grip, this process cannot be reversed and the tow vehicle + trailer becomes uncontrollable.

Ok, then what is the guy who tows a 10,000 lb rig do? Even the largest diesel pickup won't come close to having the weight advantage over the load that I have with my small truck or car. Get out of shape with a rig that big and he's toast far faster than me with at best 1,500lbs behind a 3600 lb pickup or 3900 lb car. The trailer weight to truck ratio goes down with those big rigs.

The end problem is still in the drivers hands, it's all how he drives and handles that load. Drive like a maniac and your asking for problems, drive at a pace that the rig can handle and there's no problem.
Of coarse having the load over the rear axle would be ideal, but I don't recall ever seeing a bass boat trailer in a 5th wheel configuration. I have never felt a lack of control while towing a boat, if it's that heavy or feels unstable, I just slow down. But again, all of that is just common sense and driving ability. If you hitch up a trailer, no matter what size trailer or tow vehicle and drive like it's the Indy 500, it won't make much difference what your driving. Even a small 1000 lb trailer will make a full size 1 ton truck loose rear traction if out of control or swinging at high speed.
If for a minute you think that every boater needs a one ton truck to haul his boat to the water, then that's your problem. Enjoy paying at the gas pumps as well. I've used both my one ton truck, my Ranger and that Pinto to launch my bass boat, the only one that didn't spin on the ramp was the Pinto. The worst is the one ton truck, that thing gets stuck on wet grass. The Ranger is OK but not great. The advantage the car has is that the tongue weight is closer to centered on the rear axle, its disadvantage is its lack of ground clearance and low rocker panels when backed into the water. At least the Ranger has only a bed which quickly drains once out of the water, the Pinto's seats used to stay wet for weeks.

My Dodge is about worthless as a tow vehicle once off the highway. It does just fine on dry pavement but it just don't put enough weight on the back wheels when towing a small trailer. It actually does better with a really large boat and trailer since the rear wheels get better traction with more tongue weight. The 60 lbs or so of tongue weight on my bass boat just don't cut it.
Of coarse, I'd look like an idiot with a one ton truck towing a little aluminum boat. It would make more sense just to toss the boat in the back of the truck.

 

[kyle f]

Re: WHy don't people buy Proper Tow Vehicles?

I guess I'm an idoit then for towing a 15 ft boat with a subaru legacy which is well within the towing capacity of the car

No, not really. You car should handle hat boat just fine.

The thread was started about a subframed SUV being dragged down a ramp by a 4000lb ski boat. It was inproper for the load because it was twisting the subframe and losing traction. However, it would probably handle a 3000lb combined boat and trailer just fine.

Then we went into how big for what.

A few of us that feel the same as I do have tried to clarify that Proper is more than can it pull it. Its can it pull it and every other thign that happens on the road... safely. Even the unpredictable.

then we got into mass, and what weighs more and started discussing the physics of the situation. Why some thigns can handle bigger load than others. I not only have a class IV hitch on my truck, but I also have a goose neck attachment for really heavy loads.

I towed with an 84 Bronco, then and 2001 Expedition, and Now with an F250 Diesel. All handled the boat just fine. Though, not too long after I got the Diesel, I had an incident on the road where a car pulled out from a gas station and cut me off, requiring me to slam on the brake and go from 40 to about 5mph in a hurry. No doubt in my mind I would have plowed through them.

Would it have been my fault? Nah... I was driving under the speed limit, woul have hit them in the side.... bla bla bla. Though, at the end of the day, my new boat would have been damaged, people would have been hurt, and I would have been out one of my favorite vehicles of all time.

All I am saying is towing with the Diesel is a much more comfortable situation. Less worries, better economy while towing, and more room for all the gear.

Oh and so everyone knows for comparison, my truck with me sitting in it and a 1/4 tank of fuel weighed 7300lbs on the truck scales at work.

There is one important rating for your vehicle that most over look. that is the GVWR, or Gross Vehicle Weight rating. that is your tow Vehicle, the trailer, the Boat (or whatever load), the gas and other liquids in the vehicles, any add ons, all gear, and people in the vehicle. Often times, if you compare the GVWR, and the Curbweight of your car, then subtract those who you carry with you, and then the liquids you will quickly find that the tow ratings that are over advertised as a vehicle capability are infact, totally unsafe. You would be surprised at how little weight you have left to actually tow.

 

[reelfishin]

Re: WHy don't people buy Proper Tow Vehicles?

.....
There is one important rating for your vehicle that most over look. that is the GVWR, or Gross Vehicle Weight rating. that is your tow Vehicle, the trailer, the Boat (or whatever load), the gas and other liquids in the vehicles, any add ons, all gear, and people in the vehicle. Often times, if you compare the GVWR, and the Curbweight of your car, then subtract those who you carry with you, and then the liquids you will quickly find that the tow ratings that are over advertised as a vehicle capability are infact, totally unsafe. You would be surprised at how little weight you have left to actually tow.

If you go by this rating, my truck can only tow 300 lbs after figuring fuel, oil, and two passengers. The owners manual says it can tow up to 1500lb and the don't recommend a weight distributing hitch. There's no way you can go by the GVWR for towing limits. If that was the case, even my one ton Dodge which supposedly has a 7500lb rating, can only haul about 500 lbs. The door sticker says the GVRW is 7,700 lbs, the truck weighs in at 6247 with a full tank of gas and ad two big men at about 600 lbs or more, there's not much left for cargo or towing rating. I totally do not agree with the GVRW including the trailer, a trailer has it's own wheels, suspension and brakes, you pay an additional registration fee for it as a second vehicle and I have been told directly from a Ford Motor Company tech rep that that rating does not affect or include the trailer rating. Their example was an F150 with then the 5450 GVWR package with two full tanks of fuel, and three passengers which they figured at 172 lbs each somehow (516 lbs total). The truck weighed in at 4419, minus fuel, two tanks, one 19 gallon, the other at 17.5 gallon, about 225 lbs of gas in all, and passengers, left only 290 lbs on a 1/2 ton truck. I'm sorry but if a truck that gets only 15 mpg can only haul or tow 290 lbs safely, something is definitely wrong, and those numbers are going by the advertised weight ratings and actual scale readings on a weighed vehicle. Now add three real world sized guys, even only two, and that rating is even less. I'm nearly 300lbs, and most everyone I fish with is in the same bracket and size, so your telling me that when we tow my buddies 3500lb boat with his 1996 F150 5.0L (which has a tow rating according to Ford of 5,500 lbs in the manual), we are overloaded by 3,000 lbs? The 5450 rating came from the door jam plate, they did make a 6250 package as well. In other words, that truck can only haul the equivalent of a two more passengers in the bed before being over loaded?

If the GVRW rating included towing, then how can the towing rating on any vehicle ever exceed that vehicles own weight?

How about larger horse or stock trailers, some of them weigh in at well over 12,000 lbs, and many are still bumper tow trailers. I had a car trailer that in itself weighed over 6500lbs empty, I pulled that with two cars in it for years with a 1997 F350 Diesel. The total load was nearly 14,000lbs. It handled it fine, besides, there wasn't any larger truck to buy back then without going to a semi or hot shot rig, which then would have required a goose neck or 5th wheel. What would be the sense in buying such a vehicle if you go by it's GVWR for towing?

I also have two court cases here that verify the same point after having gotten an overweight ticket while driving a 3/4 ton pickup with a car on a trailer. The trailer was properly hitched, registered for 7000lbs and the truck for 8,000 lbs. The officer tried to say that the tow vehicle registration wasn't high enough and wrote me a 100 per pound ticket after the truck and trailer weighed in at 9,034 lbs. When it went to court, the judge all but blew up at the officer and asked if he wished to give him a ticket for towing his boat that coming weekend. The court room was full of people who got the same tickets. The example the judge used was a tractor trailer and he took a break and came back and quoted the law and that a trailer is a separate registered vehicle with it's own registration based on weight. He made it clear to the officer that my registrations clearly read that I was legal up to 15,000 lbs. and that the proper procedure if they wanted to check weight was to weigh each axle or pair of axles separately.

 

[hubbard53]

Re: WHy don't people buy Proper Tow Vehicles?

There is one important rating for your vehicle that most over look. that is the GVWR, or Gross Vehicle Weight rating. that is your tow Vehicle, the trailer, the Boat (or whatever load), the gas and other liquids in the vehicles, any add ons, all gear, and people in the vehicle. Often times, if you compare the GVWR, and the Curbweight of your car, then subtract those who you carry with you, and then the liquids you will quickly find that the tow ratings that are over advertised as a vehicle capability are infact, totally unsafe. You would be surprised at how little weight you have left to actually tow.

This is not quite right...

GVWR = is the maximum allowable total weight of a vehicle that is loaded, including the weight of the vehicle itself plus fuel, passengers, cargo, and trailer tongue weigh

Soooo....
2008 MDX
GVWR = 5952

Curb weight = 4588
Tongue weight ~500
2 Passengers = 350
Fuel = 120 (20 gallons @ 6.0lbs)
Gear = 100

SO as you can see, I am close but do not exceed my max GVWR

 

[kyle f]

Re: WHy don't people buy Proper Tow Vehicles?

Sorry, the GVWR is not the one to go by. THere is a Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Rating (GCVWR). That includes the Gross Weight of the Truck (Loaded) and Trailer (Loaded).

That is where you are getting your 15000lb capacity

SO your truck, similar to mine, is probably in the 7500lb area.
400 lbs of fuel
400lbs of people
some gear around 200lbs

So, 8500lbs... leaving the weight of the trailer loaded ot be 6500lbs.

Thats a nicely built 23' CUddy Cabin Boat and Trailer.

 

[Off-Peak]

Re: WHy don't people buy Proper Tow Vehicles?

Just for fun.... I do drive an X5 and I pull a 20ft CC on a dual trailer and have NO trouble.... I admit, at first I used the wifes Tahoe since I DID NOT think the X5 could handle it...
Sure, I get looks all the time... People think these are mini-vans or unibody wagon on 20" tires... Lots of technology in a BMW.... Just remember, your trailer is in line - not your boat and we will all be just fine!!

 

[SnappingTurtle]

Re: WHy don't people buy Proper Tow Vehicles?

What can I say, just another European example of a towing rig.

Well it seems he now admits, it is used just for short trips, and moving the boat around. Don't most accidents happen within 1 mile of home?

 

[reelfishin]

Re: WHy don't people buy Proper Tow Vehicles?

What can I say, just another European example of a towing rig. ...............

While it's still a very small vehicle, the position of the rear axle probably is helping it get the job done. I wish they'd build a small pickup truck here that had the rear wheels set that far back. It would do wonders for trailer handling and maneuverability, not to mention ride quality.

The only reason I buy any truck, no matter what size is to tow with it, if it won't tow a trailer I have no use for it. With gas at $4 or more per gallon, I'll be buying even smaller trucks and making them do even more work. The bottom line is that the cost of fuel is causing drivers to ask more and more from lighter vehicles. There's no way I could afford to run a full size truck and to put fuel in the boat. I save at least $100 per week driving a 4 cylinder truck. I was burning 4 tanks of gas a week in my full sized truck I can go three weeks on half as much gas with the Ranger.

There's also no reason why they can't build a good, towing capable 4 cylinder truck that can get decent mileage. Or even a straight 6 powered truck for that matter. My 1986 F150 with a 300 I6 got in the 18 to 20 mpg range and towed great, that truck pulled like a tractor. They put too much emphasis now on comfort and soft fancy interiors. I could care less about carpet, air conditioning or fuzzy seats. A truck should be just that, a truck, a purpose built vehicle meant to do work. I'm more than tired of trying to clean grease of fish bait off of cloth seats and tan carpet. I really miss my 1967 International pickup, when it got dirty, I'd open both doors and turn on the hose. Nothing to ruin, nothing to stay wet. And it got nearly 20 miles per gallon 25 years ago. I really wish I still had that truck today.

 

[BMOLCHANY]

Re: WHy don't people buy Proper Tow Vehicles?

I guess that I am pretty safe saying that I haul my 24' suncruiser with my Explorer.

 

[AZMinyard]

Re: WHy don't people buy Proper Tow Vehicles?

What about when the tow vehicle is the boat?

 

[SnappingTurtle]

Re: WHy don't people buy Proper Tow Vehicles?

What about when the tow vehicle is the boat?

LOL

 

[AZMinyard]

Re: WHy don't people buy Proper Tow Vehicles?

What's the tow rating on a Schwinn?

 

[Uraijit]

Re: WHy don't people buy Proper Tow Vehicles?

Ok, then what is the guy who tows a 10,000 lb rig do? Even the largest diesel pickup won't come close to having the weight advantage over the load that I have with my small truck or car. Get out of shape with a rig that big and he's toast far faster than me with at best 1,500lbs behind a 3600 lb pickup or 3900 lb car. The trailer weight to truck ratio goes down with those big rigs. [Sans drivel about how his superior driving skills will overcome his use of an improper tow vehicle]

Well, that guy damn sure better have a trailer outfitted with brakes, and a controller on his tow rig. Anything less, and he's as clueless as someone who assumes that towing all comes down to the driver.

 

[2kwik]

Re: WHy don't people buy Proper Tow Vehicles?

I have seen car mfg under rate vehicles for safety reasons, I trailer a 35 fountain with an 03 f-150 king ranch 4X4, but I have a really good triple axle trailer and leveling system, only issue is going over 75mph, but I love my truck so it stays.

 

[reelfishin]

Re: WHy don't people buy Proper Tow Vehicles?

Well, that guy damn sure better have a trailer outfitted with brakes, and a controller on his tow rig. Anything less, and he's as clueless as someone who assumes that towing all comes down to the driver.

Even with brakes, a rig like that will never stop the same as an unloaded truck. With any increase in weight, there will be an increase in stopping distance.
My biggest gripe is the idiot that pulls out in front of a fully loaded rig and expects them to stop or give way. Whether its an eighteen wheel rig, one ton pickup with a 10,000 lb trailer, or a small pickup with an aluminum jon boat, the vehicle will handle different with a trailer and other drivers need to be aware that that vehicle will need more room to stop.
Even if you add a 1,000 lb boat and trailer behind a full size pickup, it's going to increase stopping distance substantially, and I've not yet seen a trailer that size with brakes of any sort. There's also no reason for that same boater to feel he needs a full size truck in the first place when a smaller truck or car will do the same job.
If someone wants me to pull my boat with a one ton truck with brakes, their more than welcome to buy me one and pay the fuel bill, meanwhile, I'll do just fine with my 18 year old Ford Ranger 4 banger.

 

[zach103]

Re: WHy don't people buy Proper Tow Vehicles?

only issue is going over 75mph,

would you really want go over that anyways when your pulling that trailer?

 

[reelfishin]

Re: WHy don't people buy Proper Tow Vehicles?

would you really want go over that anyways when your pulling that trailer?

Most states have a maximum towing speed limit, I believe its 55 MPH here.