What's the deal with the Germans?

blacktie

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jun 7, 2004
Messages
108
Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

There is no scientific dispute that the earth is gradually warming--there is some dispute over why this is happening, but no one disputes that the greenhouse gas emissions do not help the problem.<br />
pw2....this is an accurate and correct statement. it is also a topic that I have been studying and researching for quite awhile now...I don't want to hijack this thread, but are you interested in commenting on a thread I will start about this topic and it's related issues? Again, not from a partisan standpoint, but much more of a big picture view...<br /><br />LMK
 
Joined
Jun 19, 2004
Messages
69
Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

SoulWinner wrote: "We are leaders here, not because pantie heads whine and cry about the environment, but because it is good for business. No one would buy products from a producer that was destroying the environment carte blanc."<br /><br />This is absolutely false SW. American businesses ship factories to Mexico to avoid 1) high labor costs and 2) strict enviromental laws. How do you think that makes Mexico feel? We wont dirty our own back yard but we'll happy toss it over the fense onto theirs. Same goes for China, India, Indonesia, etc. <br /><br />Enviromental laws aren't good for business, they are bad for business because they increase overhead, liablility and restrict expantion. Things that make products more expensive, something us consumers hate. How on earth would it be good for business? Consumer good-will? That'd be the only positive a company could exploit, but they don't, because its too expensive and at the end of the day that company is either not proud of their record or they've done the research and shown that consumers don't really care. When's the last time you saw a company advertise its fantastic enviromental track record? <br /><br />As far as noone buying products from a producer that was destroying the enviroment, that is laughable. The world consumer doesn't have the vaugest clue about what a company is doing to the enviroment for any product that they are looking to purchase. I bet you can't even name 1% of the companies that make the clothes you are wearing today, who their partners are, where they get their matierals from and how those groups treat the enviroment. Its impossible. The shoe on your left foot probably had no fewer than a dozen different companies involved in bringing that shoe from nothing to being on your foot. How'd they treat the enviroment? How'd they treat their employees? How'd they treat their investors? You don't know because that information is impossible to assertain.<br /><br />Incidentally, computers destroy the enviroment, the technology doesn't yet exist to create an enviromentally friendly computer, but you obviosly own one, and the fact that the world is unable to safely dispose of them hasn't really slowed sales has it?
 

SoulWinner

Commander
Joined
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2,423
Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

When's the last time you saw a company advertise its fantastic enviromental track record? <br />
Several times a week I see commercials produced for our branch of Southern Company that mention their efforts to produce fewer emissions. I also know that they are in violation of federal emissions guidelines, and I further know why they are allowed to continue to exceed minimum emissions. It is not because America is evil.<br /><br />I also see commercials for automobiles that state that the engines they are building release something like 75% fewer harmful emissions than engines of 25 years ago. I think it might be a Ford commercial.<br /><br />
SoulWinner wrote: "We are leaders here, not because pantie heads whine and cry about the environment, but because it is good for business. No one would buy products from a producer that was destroying the environment carte blanc."<br /><br />This is absolutely false SW
Ok, so explain why American industry leads the world in cleaning up emissions? As far as companies moving operations to Mexico, who signed NAFTA into law? Furthermore, what is universally accepted as the single biggest financial liability for any business enterprise? Here's a little Business 101 for you, it's payroll. You might me surprised at the effect a layoff can have on an earnings report, and therefore on stock value. Darn those evil American corporations.<br /><br />
Environmental laws aren't good for business, they are bad for business
Tell that to my brother who owns an environmental tech company. Also, in a world were environmental awareness is ever increasing, environmental responsibility is another corporate tool for product differentiation. Industries that produce toxic by-products and gaseous emissions are under scrutiny by all levels of government, as well as environmental groups. It may be hard to believe, but American industry didn't clean it's self up because liberal tree hugging wackos made them. Americans in general would not stand for PCB's damaging wild birds eggs, we wouldn't stand for another Love Canal, et al. Bad press is bad press, and results in lost sales.<br /><br />
Things that make products more expensive, something us consumers hate. How on earth would it be good for business? Consumer good-will? That'd be the only positive a company could exploit, but they don't, because its too expensive and at the end of the day that company is either not proud of their record or they've done the research and shown that consumers don't really care.
Things like emissions improvements are amortized, so you have to calculate in things like sales growth, production improvements and streamlining, so in the end the costs born by the consumer are held in check. Market prices are the result of supply, demand and "market price elasticity." Look it up. Haven't you noticed that consumer prices don't fluctuate as much as profits listed in companies quarterly earning reports?<br /><br />
As far as no one buying products from a producer that was destroying the environment, that is laughable. The world consumer doesn't have the vaguest clue about what a company is doing to the environment for any product that they are looking to purchase.
This may be true for the "world consumer" but not so for the American consumer. We are educated, concerned and environmentally aware. Look, this is a boating web site, so before you go accusing the American consumer of environmentally reckless behavior, look around. We are folks who appreciate the clean water we fish and boat in. We pick up trash when we see it, we don't put monofilament in the lakes and streams, and we love the natural beauty God has provided us.<br /><br />As for the clothes I am wearing, at present I am not wearing anything. Ok, just kidding; but it is a matter of practicality. I make a conscious attempt to purchase American goods whenever and wherever I can. What do you want? If you have a problem with the labor conditions in other countries, remember what conditions were like in the 1870's all along the industrialized NE corridor of the US. And look at how far we progressed. Have faith that these countries that are following in our footsteps will make same great progress.
 
Joined
Jun 19, 2004
Messages
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Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

SW, I never once ever said that "America is evil", nor have I ever implied it in any way shape or form, so please don't try and put words in my mouth.<br /><br />Your "World Consumer" vs "American Consumer" (i.e. well educated and enviromentally aware) analogy works fine for big ticket items with known enviromental problems. And once again please do not put words in my mouth, I never said, nor implied that the "American consumer was enviromentally reckless." American consumers are very conscience of the enviromental differences between a 2 stroke outboard and a 4 stroke outboard, and a V8 and a Hybrid vehicle. I'm not talking about those items, I'm talking about all of our small ticket purchases. Clothes, electronics, toys, computers, etc. No consumer anywhere in the world has the time or ability to search out an enviromentally responsible vendor for these small ticket purchases, nor would their likely be a substitute vendor if that research was done. That's my point. And at the end of the day, these small ticket purchases have just as big if not more of an impact on our enviroment. Landfills are not full of SUV's and 2 stroke ourboards, we can recylce these items. But it doesn't pay to recycle that little RC car you got for your son for Christmas.<br /><br />You mentioned that Ford is making considerable strides to reduce emmissions. However, emmissions are not the only source of enviromental concern in a car. What about the production process? What about that tiny South American company that is making some ancillary products for the Ford Ranger? What do we know about that company? What about the recyclability of the vehicle and its components?<br /><br />The sad fact is, you, me and everyone else in this beautiful country buy products from companies that rape the enviroment, screw their investors and unappreciate their employees, and there simply isn't any way for consumer Joe to know which ones are doing it and which ones are not, regardless of how intelligent you are or how much free time you have on your hands to research it.<br /><br />Incidentally:<br />I own 3 2-stroke outboards.<br />A Ford Explorer with the 5.0L V-8<br />2 computers that will one day spend a thousand years in a landfill.<br />This November I'll vote for Bush<br /><br />But right now I'm going to go catch me a big ol' black mouth. Chinook that is. :)
 

Link

Rear Admiral
Joined
Apr 13, 2003
Messages
4,221
Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

Wow! Some of you boys is a bit loooong winded :D <br />After the last few years I could care LESS about France or Germany.<br /><br />I'm surprized that no-one has touched on this. This won't be across the board but for the most part I think is true. <br />It is the younger Germans, Koreans (Pick a country) that "hate us" The older people still remember us comming to their aid.<br /><br />A couple years ago I watched on TV as most did Koreans marching in the streets against us.<br /><br />What you didn't see is the older Koreans making their own march for us a week or two later.<br /><br /> <br />Just my thoughts on some of it.
 

rudeafrican

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Oct 29, 2002
Messages
225
Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

Obviously you, folks that think like you, the limp wristed Nancy boy Democratic Presidential nominee; and dare I say it, libs in general want to take a back seat to leadership from from Schroeder, Putin and Chirac. <br /><br />----------------<br /><br />Man, for a man in service of the Lord you sure like name calling. I personally find this detracts from an otherwise sound argument
 

rgbonehead

Recruit
Joined
Jul 22, 2004
Messages
3
Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

Originally posted by eurolarva:<br /> I lived in Germany from 1978 through 1981 in the Army. At that time there was a real threat that the russians were going to come through and try and claim Germany. We had so many bases there that you could not drive more then 20 miles without getting to one of these bases. Our thinking was we were there to protect the Germans from Communisim. It all sounds good on paper however having all those GIs caused a lot of problems and conflicts. American soldiers would spend a great deal of time getting drunk and making total fools of themselves. We did not pay attention to their customs and were very abusive. Leaving beer bottles or dropping trash on the ground. The Germans are very proud and private people. Having us there was a major problem for them. They needed us there but did not want us there because of our lack of respect to their ways. Slowly the bases shut down and American presence is minimal now compared to the way it used to be. Germans will come across as pompus and arrogent people however when you get to know them your opinion of them will change. If you ever go over there you will notice there are next to no slums, worn down houses or beat up old cars running around. They are clean and very orderly. Sorry if I am rambling here but it is hard to judge a book by its cover. Some of the resentment they have toward us is earned by the way our military forces treated them while we were there.
 

rgbonehead

Recruit
Joined
Jul 22, 2004
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Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

Hi my name is Ron<br />I am retired from the us navy from 1962 to 1992<br />and If you have been on liberty with a bunch of drunk american sailors in europe you can see why the european people don't like american's.It is shameful the way most of them act being away from home the first time.So don't think its only the <br />German people that don't like us it's most all of europe. And it was'nt france that wouldn't let us <br />overfly there country during libyia it was Spain <br />I was there. <br /> Ron USNAVY Retired
 

Link

Rear Admiral
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Apr 13, 2003
Messages
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Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

Hi Ron<br />And welcome to IBOATS. Thank you for your service to our country. ALOT of Vets here. Myself from 1971-1991, but to say all of europe hates us because of a few drunken sailors/soldiers/airmen is a little off base. <br />It would be like me saying I hate all Britts because of a few soldiers blowing off steam in the local pub/bar. Heck like you maybe, BTDT all over the world. And have friends in most of those countries. (actually all)<br />This started before you and I were even born. For a lot of the reasons listed. <br />Keep posting Ron<br />Decided to do a edit and say Welcome Aboard Mate! ;) <br />Like me, we need more old Salts around.. left right, starboard, port?? :confused: Don't even ask us about "Midship" or "Super Structure" A poop deck sounds like a porta pottie to me :) OK that was a given.. I keep telling my wife of 17 years Navy Reserves that our floors are NOT Decks and that the walls are NOT Bulkheads,, they are walls..it's a door, not a Hatch.. and if you tell me one more time to get out of the passage way I'm going to Brain her.. its a Hall! :D :D <br /><br /><br />Link
 

PW2

Commander
Joined
Apr 21, 2004
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2,719
Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

Sure, I would love to have a non-partisan discussion on emissions/global warming.<br /><br />There is a lot of misinformation out there re what are "harmful" emissions, and what is being done about it, and why. And whether it is important to do anything at all.<br /><br />Sadly science is neither simple, nor cut and dried, nor does it usually fit into a particular political ideology.<br /><br />SW's post is clear evidence that lots of people don't have a clue what they are talking about.<br /><br />Start a thread.<br /><br />regards
 

SoulWinner

Commander
Joined
Apr 16, 2002
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Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

SW's post is clear evidence that lots of people don't have a clue what they are talking about.<br />
Oh I know PW, that's why I've tried for so long to educate you ;) :D <br />Peace Bro :)
 

Skinnywater

Commander
Joined
Mar 7, 2002
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2,065
Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

Posted by Ron Gifford;<br />
And it was'nt france that wouldn't let us <br />overfly there country during libyia it was Spain <br />I was there. <br />
Yes, welcome aboard Ron.<br />I'm sure you had other things on your mind at the time Ron. <br /><br />"Planning was even further compounded when the French refused to grant authority to overfly France. This refusal increased the distance of the flight route from Great Britain to Tripoli by about 1300 nautical miles each way, added 6-7 hours of flight time for the pilots and crews, and forced a tremendous amount of additional refueling support from tanker aircraft."<br /> http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/el_dorado_canyon.htm <br /><br />In addition, France and Russia condemned the mission.
 

karl smith

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Joined
Aug 12, 2004
Messages
11
Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

SW, you are on the right track. Germany hates us because we have so many military personnel on their soil. That being so, we won't let them kick france's *** again. And it would only take about 3 days. One of fighting and two of celebration.
 
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