What's the deal with the Germans?

[SCO]

Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

"From Kyoto, to steel tarriffs, to cancelling the ABM treaty, etc. all the way up to invading Iraq.<br /><br />All of which is leading to a less secure, less prosperous Europe generally."<br /><br />This is a competition for power money, security, and they are doing their best to win at our expense, and it is our job to prevent that. I though think it is deeper than that. England wants to be our friend so we don't have the same problems with them. Pure speculation: we're allied with the English, and the European powers all have a disdain for one another. I also agree w PW2, especially about Iraq, they don't like us shaking that tree, in the same way that we don't want Israel responding to the Palastinians oft times. But, that's their problem .Those appeasers just might sacrafice the USA if it would satisfy the enemy.No skin off their nose.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

Originally posted by PW2:<br /> From the very beginning of this administration, we have thumbed our collective noses at everything the Europeans care about--From Kyoto, to steel tarriffs, to cancelling the ABM treaty, etc. all the way up to invading Iraq.

Interesting how all of these issues, except steel tarriffs, are hallmark subjects of the American Left!

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

DE is having serious financial troubles. politicals<br />are trying to divert attention by shining spotlight<br />on things like US/Iraq.<br />liberal policies are coming back to bite them hard!

 

[blacktie]

Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

Soulwinner is right on the mark pw2.<br /><br />Remember your civics.<br /><br />The Senate approves or disapproves of ANY and ALL treaties. Not the President.<br /><br />Also, Europes disdain for the US go back well before this administration. True, our relationships have degraded during the last 4 years, but so has the current world situation.<br /><br />One last thing....until I read your post (pw2), I was almost going to post how on 2 different threads that I am following, that actual debate has occurred, free of partisan bashing. Until your post. It was fun while it lasted...Actually debating an issue free of the same old soundbite crap (from all political sides) that pervades every single outlet of discussion on the web or in the media in the US these days.

 

[1994lundminnow]

Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

Here's my $.02 --<br /><br />Contrary to hayhauler, Europeans see the US as being a nation full of people that have a twisted sense of entitlement. And I'm afraid to admit it but they have a damn good case for that assessment. Think about it, if you spill hot coffee on yourself, someone else is to blame for your burn. B.S. lawsuits like that don't happen in Europe, if they did, they sure as hell wouldn't win and be awarded millions. <br /><br />America is rife with unaccountability. From coporate America, to politics, to individuals. If something goes wrong somebody else is to blame and they need to pay for it. Europe is still wondering how in the hell a President can get head from an intern and not lose his job. <br /><br />Then you have our foreign policy, where we feel "entitled" to all the worlds oil supply, but even more annoying to other countries is that America is "entitled" to peddle our goods in their country. Foreign resentment comes from the fact that there is a McDonalds on every other corner in their country and a Starbucks on the other. People, no matter where you are from want to feel a sense of national pride, its tough to have that pride when you can't go into town and recognize a single product or business that is native to your land. <br /><br />So, national pride is what the main reason is. I had a friend from Egypt, and he told me about their resentment of America. He'd tell me that Egypt was the birth place of man, that they led the world for 3,000 years, technologically, etc. Its a tough pill to swollow when that is your history, but your present picture is one of poverty, corruption and disorganization. They want to be #1 again, their position in the world today is humiliating to them.<br /><br />Germany was #1 for a while, and they want that status back again as well.<br /><br />The EU is furthering this resentment towards the US because it exists solely as a competive structure to America. Not one country that is a member of the EU is happy about their membership to the EU, but unless they unite they can't compete with America. Make no mistake, European nations dislike each other as well, and they resent the idea that they have to merge with their disliked neighbor in order to compete with the US.<br /><br />Think of it like this - Baseball terms: The US is essentially the NY Yankees of the world. Occassionally in history some other country held the title, but at the end of the day, the Yankees are the world champs. Now, imagine going into your home town and seeing nothing but Yankee baseball caps, flags, stores etc. Every time you pick up the paper you'll see how the Yankees have again positioned themselves to dominate the league unfairly. All you want is to feel some home town pride in your woeful team. Naturally, all your resentment goes to the 800lb gorilla dominating things, and rubbing it in your face, never the Red Sox. The EU is the equivolent of saying, well we can't beat the Yankees by ourselves, so maybe if we merge every team west of Virgina into one team we could compete with them. The cosideration of that would further the humilation you'd feel that your team sucks and can't compete on its own. <br /><br />Go Mariners!!

 

[12Footer]

Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

Originally posted by 1994lundminnow:<br /> <br />Then you have our foreign policy, where we feel "entitled" to all the worlds oil supply, but even more annoying to other countries is that America is "entitled" to peddle our goods in their country. I think a lot of foreign resentment is that their is a McDonalds on every other corner in their country and a Starbucks on the other. People, no matter where you are from want to feel a sense of national pride, its tough to have that pride when you can't go into town and recognize a single product or business that is native to your land. <br />

<br />Well, we are just condemned to thier hatered, I guess? Because Starbuck and McDonalds are there for good.....Just like the local Michelin tire center a mile from here, until our boycotts bankrupt them at least. <br />IOW, if I got this right, it's ok that to sell BMW's and Volksbuggies here, but if we sell hamburgers over there, we are to be rotten, and to be hated?<br />Well, personally, I think Capitalism will win thru . Dodge, a company that gave definition to the term "Federal Coorperate bailout", now owns Diemler! hehehe lol<br /> <br />

Originally posted by 1994lundminnow:<br /> <br /><br />So, national pride is what I think the main reason is. I had a friend from Egypt, and he told me about their resentment of America. He'd tell me that Egypt was the birth place of man, that they led the world for 3,000 years, technologically, etc. Its a tough pill to swollow when that is your history, but your present picture is one of poverty, corruption and disorganization. They want to be #1 again.

<br />I guess I can understand that national mindest...Samey-same as many Americans' mindset, being tired of seeing our raw materials shipped-out,products produced,and shipped back, selling cheaper than we can build them here.<br />This is the downside of capitalism. It is heartless and "nationally color blind", in it's struggle to provide an existance. Viva la capitalisim.<br />What happened to Egypt is not our fault, yet we are blamed for it.<br /><br />

Originally posted by 1994lundminnow:<br /> <br /><br />Germany was #1 for a while, and they want that status back again.

<br />Nothing wrong with that. But why the hatered towards America?<br /><br />

Originally posted by 1994lundminnow:<br /> <br /><br />The EU is furthering this resentment towards the US because it exists solely as a competive structure to America. Not one country that is a member of the EU is happy about their membership to the EU, but unless they unite they can't compete with America.

<br />I am not happy about my truck having a Diemler-designed ignition system...But hell, it werks great.<br />Competition is too easily regarded as evil, so maybee you've hit the nail on the head. They cannot compete without giving up thier apirations of global domination, and are now like we once were--too spoiled to compete fairly?<br /><br />

Originally posted by 1994lundminnow:<br /> <br /><br />Think of it like this - Baseball terms: The US is essentially the NY Yankees of the world. Occassionally in history some other country held the title, but at the end of the day, the Yankees are the world champs. Now, imagine going into your home town and seeing nothing but Yankee baseball caps, flags, etc. Every time you pick up the paper you'll see how the Yankees have again positioned themselves to dominate the league unfairly. All you want is to feel some home town pride in your woeful team. Naturally, all your resentment goes to the 800lb gorilla dominating things, never the Red Sox.<br /><br />Go Mariners!!

I get it...Kinda like seeing P-ditty, Kerry or Oprah on the TV every time I turn it on. Again, your logic is inescapable. But it aint like the Yankees cheated.They won fair n square.<br />I guess they'll just have to hate me personally. Because I will win the game by selling cheaper, better in every category goods,and they'll just have to make a little whine to go with thier Wisconsin Swiss.

 

[1994lundminnow]

Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

Back to sports. When your team is winning, you can't imagine why other fans would dislike your team... because they are such a great group of guys, just high fiving and having fun.<br /><br />But when your team stinks, year after year after year, its pretty easy to develop a negative image of the team that's been #1 for the last decade while your team has struggled.<br /><br />They don't hate McDonalds and Starbucks, they just get tired of always seeing American stuff, and never seeing their own. Have you ever been to a football game and seen more cheeseheads at the game than fans for your home team? It happens in Seattle every time Green Bay comes to town.

 

[SCO]

Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

Lund,I hope you are just explaining it, that their resentments are their problem. WRT oil, what is it worth if the world doesn't use it? We are helping in that regard. We don't own the oil fields, we pay for it and that's good for the middle east. If we really want to make them desperately hate us, let's ween ourselves off the oil. That is of course the reason we have been friends with Saudi. When Saddam threatened to break up that friendship, the gulf war resulted, for reasons of national security for Saudi Arabia and the USA. So far, we havn't gone around stealing oil, but I bet if the rad islamists took over the entire middle east we might have to. BTW, that was the reason that Japan attacked us at Pearl harbor, oil. Everything I buy right now says China. No reason to resent them. Will they like us better if we are an 800 lb puppy dog? 800 lbs of any critter will be tough for them to deal with, but yaknow, we're 800 lbs. We try to walk softly but it's a might difficult with people bombing us and slurring us and trying to cut off our oil trade.

 

[hayhauler]

Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

woops, I had my say twice

 

[hayhauler]

Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

I'd like to be liked by them, but not at the expense of being an 800 pound puppy dog (thanks SCO, I liked that one). If they don't want McDonalds and Dunkin Donuts and Disney Lands in their countries, tell them to stop going. Those places are owned by entrepeneurs who only sell their products where there is a market for them.<br /><br />As to us feeling entitled to the worlds oil, we've pretty well paid for it. Same deal, they're selling a product, we're buying it. I personally look forward to the day when they perfect biodiesel and we can grow our own fuel and let them keep theirs. There will be a whole lot less shieks and mullahs driving around in Rolls Royces.<br /><br />As to our foreign policy, our foreign policy feeds more hungry people, gives medecine to more sick people and provides safety for more endangered people than that of any government in the world. Will we defend ourselves from agressors? Every single time!!! and any of the other nations that don't like that don't need to call on us the next time they need help defending themselves. To me this applies especially to France and Germany.

 

[12Footer]

Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

I can realy relate to Lund's analogy tho, being a Tampa Bay Bucks fan from the team's beginning.<br />They certainly have had thier upz n downz, and I iether hate or love them, depending upon how hard they try. Winning is often not as important as the game they play. If they play thier gutz out and get tromped, or get bought-off calls, it just doesn't sour my efforts to see them play the next game.<br />And I guess, everybody wants to be king of the hill,when only one can be.<br />AS long as they play fair, we should compete with them. But if they buy the judges (as the UN has been purchased), I say let's take our ball and go home.

 

[SCO]

Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

On second thoughts, if we were denied oil by the rad islamists taking over the ME, we would just convert quickly to nuclear and electric, do some rationing. If these resentments are all the basis there is to the hate America 1st crowd, then USA ROCKS. We're #1. Depending on your reaction to the last chant, pat yourself on the back or check into an anti USA brainwash reversal center.

 

[1730V]

Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

12footer, I agree with everything you said except for one thing.<br /><br />Daimler owns Chrysler. Not the other way around. That was not a freindly takeover of Chrysler by the Germans. They fired as many US employees as they could get away with and replaced them with transplants.<br /><br />There are only two truly US owned auto companies. GM and Ford. The others are transplants with profits going to and majority ownership in a foreign country.

 

[eurolarva]

Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

I lived in Germany from 1978 through 1981 in the Army. At that time there was a real threat that the russians were going to come through and try and claim Germany. We had so many bases there that you could not drive more then 20 miles without getting to one of these bases. Our thinking was we were there to protect the Germans from Communisim. It all sounds good on paper however having all those GIs caused a lot of problems and conflicts. American soldiers would spend a great deal of time getting drunk and making total fools of themselves. We did not pay attention to their customs and were very abusive. Leaving beer bottles or dropping trash on the ground. The Germans are very proud and private people. Having us there was a major problem for them. They needed us there but did not want us there because of our lack of respect to their ways. Slowly the bases shut down and American presence is minimal now compared to the way it used to be. Germans will come across as pompus and arrogent people however when you get to know them your opinion of them will change. If you ever go over there you will notice there are next to no slums, worn down houses or beat up old cars running around. They are clean and very orderly. Sorry if I am rambling here but it is hard to judge a book by its cover. Some of the resentment they have toward us is earned by the way our military forces treated them while we were there.

 

[SCO]

Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

That's good info euro. An inevitable clash of culture. Yes we're brash and crude, and are who we are. We should work on it. I am sure a lot of soldiers like yourself made positive impressions too.

 

[PW2]

Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

I agree with this much.<br /><br />If you don't care about world trade, and think we can prosper in a global economy by antagonizing our allies, or if you don't care that we want to abandon the ABM treaty so that we can spend billions and billions of dollars on a missle defense shield that cannot possibly work, against a threat that no longer even exists, then Bush is your man.<br /><br />And the notion that no other nation ratified the Kyoto pact is pure silliness. The US produces a far disproportionate amount of the greenhouse gasses than anyone else in the world. If the US is not part of the treaty, there is no treaty, and no reason for anyone else to ratify it.<br /><br />There is no scientific dispute that the earth is gradually warming--there is some dispute over why this is happening, but no one disputes that the greenhouse gas emissions do not help the problem.<br /><br />And the notion that somehow enforcing environmental standards would be bad for the economy--especially the US economy, is simply wrong. Who do you think is going to design and build the necessary equipment? The US.<br /><br />I recall the same types suggesting that computerization and automation was going to cost tons of jobs> It is shortsighted and simply wrong.<br /><br />And I'm not sure why environmental quality and thoughtful rational defense initiatives would be the issues of the "left"? I would think they would be issues of any thinking person, but then perhaps that is the answer to my question.

 

[skeezx01]

Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

Well now, i think we may have overanalized things a bit here. let me give you the low down on the german mind. i being an american of german heritage feel qualified to say that the reason some germans hate americans is that once you **** of a german for whatever reason, no matter how small and nomatter how long you have been friends, forgiveness is rare. call it pride or arrogance if you want to, but it's mostly a stubborn thing. ask my wife.....

 

[SoulWinner]

Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

From the dictionary: Antagonize \1: To act in opposition to :COUNTERACT 2: to incur or provoke the hostility of<br /><br />So, unless we do what the French, Germans and Russians want us to do, we are "antagonizing" them? Have you hard or read ANYTHING regarding the "oil for palaces" corruption, wherein the French, Germans and Russians were profiting hundreds of millions, perhaps billions of $$$$$$ from Saddam Hussein? So, we are ogres for liberating millions of suffering people from a brutal dictator while acting on intelligence from the the CIA, British Intelligence and Russian Intelligence that suggested the presence of WMDs; (which intelligence is still uncovering information that shows that the WMDs were there, some are still there, and much was moved to Syria before the war)because countries who's leaders were profiting illegally from the corrupt "oil for food" program didn't want us to wreck their money train. OK, I see where you are coming from. I am sure everyone else does too.<br /><br />Regarding greenhouse gas emissions, America is on the fast track (we are world leaders in greenhouse gas reduction) to reducing greenhouse gas emissions. If you took time to research this stuff and educate yourself you would know that; then you could do something more productive with your life than regurgitate party line rhetoric that is patently false. Ever heard of the Iowa Greenhouse Gas Action Plan? The United States, from the federal to the local level is instituting procedures to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, we are doing it at faster and more comprehensive rate than the rest of the industrialized world, and we don't need to join the Kyoto accord to get it done. We don't need the Japanese to monitor our progress. We, as Americans, happen to live on the planet Earth and are cleaning up our own mess. Before the Japanese tell us how regulate our industrial emissions, maybe they should think about regulating their fishing fleets before they fish the Pacific Ocean into a barren sub-marine wasteland.<br /><br />Don't you ever get tired of being wrong? Aren't you even a little frustrated with the lies you repeat here being exposed by facts? The Russians have dumped TONS of nuclear waste into the ocean. Southeast Asia is leading the world in polluting their water, and air. India is currently in possession of the worlds most dangerous nuclear power stations, all of which are leaking radioactive materials, causing the worlds highest rate of genetic mutations around said power stations.<br /><br />America is not whats wrong with the world, we are the worlds leaders when it comes to responsible industrial wastes and by products. We are leaders here, not because pantie heads whine and cry about the environment, but because it is good for business. No one would buy products from a producer that was destroying the environment carte blanc. Your attitudes about America and how America belongs on her knees kissing French and Russian azz are nauseating. If America is such an evil place to you, I am sure that you would be more than welcome in France. Au revoir!

 

[SCO]

Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

Man SW,that's a pretty good left jab. We moved away from oil consumption after the first oil embargo, and we are doing it again. Europeans drive around like crazy just like us. Russians can't afford to drive around nor can they afford to contain/ dispose of their nuclear mat'ls and waste. I agree that we should move from oil too, but also think that as long as it is the cheapest energy for the buck, it will be consumed...because of human nature, not Bush, the Right or the USA. Watch out for China. The conundrum is this: If you dont take advantage of the cheap energy and use it, the country doesnt have strength of economy. No strength of economy means weakness and vulnerability. I am with you though PW in that environmental issues should be taken and evaluated quite seriously, and should not be associated w the right or left.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: What's the deal with the Germans?

Originally posted by skeezx01:<br /> Well now, i think we may have overanalized things a bit here. let me give you the low down on the german mind. i being an american of german heritage feel qualified to say that the reason some germans hate americans is that once you **** of a german for whatever reason, no matter how small and nomatter how long you have been friends, forgiveness is rare. call it pride or arrogance if you want to, but it's mostly a stubborn thing. ask my wife.....

I guess all the Germans I've known were from Munich.