What would you have done in this soldiers place?

[woodrat]

Re: What would you have done in this soldiers place?

And then there is Homerr's tag line complaining about oregon and its taxes and fines and what not. Why don't we lay the same trip on him and offer to take up a collection so he can move to a state that suits him better? he MUST just HATE everything about where he lives if he's pointing out problems like that.<br /><br />(sorry homerr, no offense, just making a point!)

 

[mikeandronda]

Re: What would you have done in this soldiers place?

Wow woodrat did I hit a nerve there.........I guess the point I tried to make and you missed is "some people" do nothing but complain about our country.....hmmm wonder who Im talking about......not one or two things but everything our country does to some people is wrong. As for the religious and pious people well I am a Christian but I also know we are at war because of the numerous attacks over the last 20 yrs or so from the extreemist Islamic terrorists who have grown in strengh thanx to people who talk as you. If this war was all about just us being violent and ( as you put it ) prideful Im sure there would be a much different outcome up till this point. All I can say is yes I have pride in my country.....no not blind pride . But as this world goes we got the best one. Please dont preach the Jesus wouldnt want us to love our country or have pride in it either. Are you really trying to say that God/Jesus wants us to dislike our government or at least it seems your suggesting we should not approve of our countries doings regaurdless. As for blind pride........I know there is some things about our country and this war that is wrong but I also know there is more things about my country and this war that are good and right. Just once I would love to hear you tell us what some of the things you like about USA. go on suprise me.

 

[woodrat]

Re: What would you have done in this soldiers place?

M&R, when you said "When you decide enough is enough let us know so we can take up a collection for you to move to whatever country you feel is better than this one", you took it from the realm of a generalized statement about "some people" to a pretty specific comment about me, someone you know next to nothing about.<br /><br />Hopefully JB will forgive me for going WAAAAY off thread here, but I will take you up on your challenge.<br /><br />I love the freedom to bear arms, and I love being able to go to a gun show and just buy practically any old thing I might like with minimal hassle and paperwork, although I would love for there to be even less hassle and paperwork.<br /><br />I love fishing and being able to harvest my own food that way without TOO much undue regulation. If I had been raised with hunting, I would love that too.<br /><br />I love to watch car racing of all kinds, and love the sound of a big V8 taking off from the line. I even raced on a 3/8 mile oval a few times myself before it got to be too much $$. (can't imagine doing it now, with gas above $2/ gallon, though).<br /><br />I love my big diesel cummins engine in my truck. just LOVE it.<br /><br />I love my portable sawmill, made possible by american entrepreneurship and engineering.<br /><br />I love my 63 Plymouth Valiant and all the other old cars of american manufacture that I've owned (I've had well over 100 different cars in my life, about 1/2 american made).<br /><br />I love the old time small family farm tradition, something that has taken many hard hits over the decades, to where my recently departed 102 year old grandfather would just shake his head in sadness at all the corn and soy, where there were once hundreds of diverse small family farms.<br /><br />I love logging with horses, although I haven't had an opportunity to do that in several years. <br /><br />I love the stories and lore from the old pacific northwest, from the coastal native lore through lewis and clark and on up til today.<br /><br />I love the amazing diversity of all kinds of music that has flourished in this country for nigh on two centuries. I'm not much crazy about contemporary "country" though, but love the country music from a few decades back. I also like jazz, soul, R&B, hip hop of some stripes, classic rock, punk rock and a lot more. <br /><br />I love public libraries. <br /><br />I love the internet, email, the amazing spread of information and communication. <br /><br />I love the freedom of being self employed.<br /><br />I love my solar panels, another great american invention.<br /><br />I love listening to all kinds of radio, including art bell on occasion, and right wing christian radio as well as small college stations and NPR. not crazy about big commercial FM though.<br /><br />I love PBS television, on the rare occasion that I find myself in front of a TV.<br /><br />I love the national park system, and all the great opportunities I've had to hike and camp in them.<br /><br />I loved boy scouts when I was a lad ( I am an Eagle Scout, and OA), although i now think that I was pretty lucky to be in troops that mostly focused on the outdoors, rather than all the religious hoo-ha that the BSA seems to identify with these days.<br /><br />I love the Jeffersonian ideal of small farms and craftsmen, and decentralized, small federal government. Not that we've been anywhere near that for decades or more, but I love the IDEA.<br /><br />I love the mighty Columbia RIver, even in all its dammed, dredged, jettied, polluted and radioactive splendor.<br /><br />That enough for you? Does that give me the right to engage in criticism of my government?<br /><br />BTW, I'm not particularly well-read when it comes to the bible, but I don't recall that Jesus was big on nationalism. And I don't recall anything in the founding documents of this country that require me not to "dislike" our government or certain of its policies.

 

[mikeandronda]

Re: What would you have done in this soldiers place?

Ok....Ok.... I stand corrected. You do like things about America and I hope you stay I am not as versed on the bible as I would like to be, but I do know that God wants us to respect our authority as long as it doent go against his word. I know, I know thou shall not kill....right thats what you were gonna say about the war right????? Well in I believe in the Hebrew or Greek translation it is thou shall not murder ( not 100% sure).........we are war, not commiting murder. God has comanded his people in the past to wage war. ( Im not saying God commanded us to go to war, just pointing out the difference.)Im cool with you woodrat, we just seem to see things way different but I bet if we hung out in person maybe we could prove some of our points to each other, but on here maybe I came accross to strong and was out of line with my collection comment.

 

[woodrat]

Re: What would you have done in this soldiers place?

BTW, M&R, the islamist extremists have not grown in power because of people who think and talk like me. They've grown in power because we continue to encroach on their lands in our quest for oil, we continue to aggravate all arabs with our completely one-sided, rabid support of anything-the-israelis-want in regards to the palestinians, and last but not least, because our government aids and abets their growth, ie by funding OBL when he was fighting the soviets, by funding saddam when he was fighting the iranians, by overthrowing the popular iranian government back in the fifties, by sucking up to the corrupt saudis and on and on and on. It has really nothing to do with people like me exercising freedom of speech and saying our piece out loud and in public. That is yet another thing to love about america, yet so many bush supporters don't seem to love that. I hear over and over again about how viewpoints critical of the president and our foreign policy should not be spoken out loud because it "aids the enemy". Which enemy? The islamists, or the fanatics in this country who advocate turning over our liberties to the central government for safe keeping until the "war on terrorism'" is "over"?

 

[woodrat]

Re: What would you have done in this soldiers place?

Originally posted by mikeandronda:<br /> I know, I know thou shall not kill....right thats what you were gonna say about the war right????? Well in I believe in the Hebrew or Greek translation it is thou shall not murder ( not 100% sure).........we are war, not commiting murder. God has comanded his people in the past to wage war. (

That fine line between war and murder I think was what started this thread. And I have to say, I don't really know if that young marine committed murder or was just doing his job. I do know that several soldiers have been indicted for murder both in the iraq conflict and afghanistan. They went beyond performing their duties during wartime and actually murdered civilians. And that is NOT going to help us win hearts and minds, no matter how understandable it might be to people back home in america, who think that 911 justifies everything.

 

[mikeandronda]

Re: What would you have done in this soldiers place?

my question is how have we encroached on any islamic land other than afganistan and Iraq??????? And It happened in Iraq only after they became a world threat to our allies. Afganistan decided they wanted to go to war with us and support terrorists and when their terrorist friends went too far we still gave them the opportunity to hand over the bad guys they didnt. But back to the subject of this thread. Even if this Dude killed his enemy when he was defensless its is most assuradly an isolated issue and by it becomeing world wide "news" it has given the enemy one more of their far fetched excuses to commit crimes against humanity at much higher level. This young man was shot in the face the day before and in the mist of battle, things happen in battle that those of us sitting at our computer have no concept of.

 

[woodrat]

Re: What would you have done in this soldiers place?

Don't get me wrong, those who live by the sword will die by it as well, and I've got really no repsect or sympathy for those who would wage war from a mosque. But it is important if we are going to consider ourselves morally superior to our enemy to try and live by a higher standard. Our government has played pretty fast and loose when it comes to the geneva conventions. First we state that we won't abide by the geneva conventions concerning a certain "class" of prisoner, which we will unilaterally decide who is in that class. Then when a few of our troops are captured in the first few days of the war, and paraded on video, being asked questions like where do you live, we hollered that the Iraqis were violating the Geneva Conventions! however, we continued to make up our own rules as we go and we do what we wish with the prisoners we've taken to Guantanamo. Then when the Abu Ghraib thing broke, why, we were just Shocked (!) I tell you, to find out that such abuses were going on. Now we are just wanting not to know what is going on over there, as long as we win, however that will be defined. It just doesn't look very good. Are we really creating less of a likelyhood that we will be attacked by terrorists here in the states? You can take away the cameras and then nobody who is not on the battlefield, as participant or caught in the middle, will know what is going on. But that won't change the fact that these abuses, whenever they do occur, aren't already being exploited for all they're worth in the ARAB media.<br /><br />And I'm speaking as someone who agrees that I probably would have done the same thing this marine did.

 

[agitator]

Re: What would you have done in this soldiers place?

Baloney1 The Geneva Convention applies to legitimate forces of a country and not to a rabble of common criminals and fanatics from that and other countries who murder and wreak mahem for no government or other legitimate cause. I am not willing to lose one American life by trying to stay on a higher plane or being more moral than fanatics responding to the orders of despots and opportunists.

 

[JasonJ]

Re: What would you have done in this soldiers place?

I am surprised I didn't answer this one sooner...<br /><br />Anyway, I was trained not to "double tap". Soldiers are trained to fire on the enemy to gain tactical advantage and to save their own lives as well as the lives of their comrads. If the objective has been met and iminent danger no longer exists, then wounded enemy soldiers are to be medically treated and prisoners are to be taken. That is what we are supposed to do. They may not play by the rules, but as the better, more professional military, it is still out jobs to set an example in this world.<br /><br /> Considering the circumstances of this particular incident, such as booby trapped bodies and whatnot, the soldier was faced with the decision to double tap and drive on or to bring in back-up and search/treat the wounded person, risking the lives of even more soldiers in his unit. He chose to double tap and drive on, and under HIS circumstances and level of training/experience, I feel it was a valid choice. <br /><br />What would I have done? As an NCO, I knew the rules of the game. IF it were viable and the situation permitted, I would have cleared the area and brought in someone from the chain of command to help make the decision (let the chain of command bear the burden). If bullets were still flying and the situation called for a more immediate action, I would have moved on and let my unit know of his existence and to avoid that area. As a professional I would not have double tapped unless I had no other choice, regardless of my personal belief that he needed a 30 round clip emptied into him. <br /><br />I hope the soldier involved does not recieve anything more than an administrative arse chewin', but I can garantee he will not walk away without any repercusion.<br /><br />And yes, the damn cameras have to go....

 

[AK_Chappy]

Re: What would you have done in this soldiers place?

JasonJ just answered the question the best!<br /><br />We MUST put down our personal beliefs at times and do what the rules of engagement state.<br /><br />AK Chappy

 

[Barlow]

Re: What would you have done in this soldiers place?

Originally posted by Homerr:<br /> AMEN!<br /><br />BTW: Beutiful pictures... Are they your own or?<br /><br /><br />H.

sorry Homerr for missing this earlier .. <br /><br />No .. those are not my pics.<br /><br />They we sent to me from my uncle who is a retired Army special forces (tactical specialist trainer or something like that) that now works for a civilian owned tactical/technical contractor to the US Government Military divisions.<br /><br />He's been over-seas as long as this whole deals been going 2 months on two months off .. with trips back and forth per needed.<br /><br />I get some good pics every time I here from him.. but, I doubt he's behind the lense though.<br /><br />take care