What defines democratic and majority rule?

[cbnoodles]

This will undoubtedly be perceived as a rant or a troll but it is not intended to be either. I just want to express something that has bothered me for years. The reason I'm writing this now is a comment by Jason that I've partially quoted below.<br /><br />"Its interesting, but I am sure the bible crowd will effectively stamp that sort of thing out.... . I just hope that the standards of ethics used are based on a desire to not *******ize humanity, not on the bible. I am tired of feeling like my future is being dictated by a group of people who have a belief system I do not share."<br /><br />I do not begrudge Jason's desire to have control over his future or to decide what is ethically right for himself or his family. I do, however, question the apparent disregard that he shares with a large number of others where a majority should set policy or hold sway.<br /><br />Given that a sizable percentage of the population in America is not Christian and/or places their priorities elsewhere, they are still in the MINORITY. The Constitution is clear that for this country to be a democracy, the MAJORITY shall rule.<br /><br />I don't understand why most of us must constantly knuckle under to the whims of a relatively lesser number. This phenomenon extends from not having the phrase "one nation under God" in our pledge of allegiance to deciding what we, as a people, decide what is moral and right where our laws are concerned.<br /><br />Is it just me, or are we (the majority) allowing the smaller special interests gnaw away at our way of life to the point where it will cease to exist? What is wrong, after all, with having a plaque of the Ten Commandments in a town square? I don't recall reading or hearing about anybody prohibiting a public exhibition by NAZIS, atheists, Muslims, the French, paintballers, NASCAR enthusiasts, or Impressionist period art lovers.<br /><br />Let them have their beliefs or their interests and they can let us have ours.

 

[JB]

Re: What defines democratic and majority rule?

Howdy, Prof.<br /><br />I think you need to read the Constitution you so blithely refer to.<br /><br />Our Constitution is loaded with protections for minorities against the unjust dominance of a majority. That Nevada and Alaska have just as many votes in the Senate as California and New York, which have cities with more population than both states combined, is just the best known example.<br /><br />We are a republic; not, as our media would have you believe, a democracy. Our constitution offers a long list of things that majorities are forbidden to do to minorities, including establishment of a state religion.<br /><br />Our constitution also guarantees individuals freedoms. . . freedoms to: ________ and freedoms FROM: _______.<br /><br />In my view, one of the things we are guaranteed freedom from is religious tyranny.

 

[JB]

Re: What defines democratic and majority rule?

It was your "majority rules" comment that I understood to mean pure democracy, Prof.<br /><br />Minorities demanding protections guaranteed by the Constitution and long denied is not the same as "imposing their will on the majority".<br /><br />In my lifetime Congress and the Supreme Court have recognised and corrected long standing denial of minority rights guaranteed by the Constitution.<br /><br />There are more corrections needed.

 

[cbnoodles]

Re: What defines democratic and majority rule?

JB,<br /><br />Either you have read me wrong or just don't understand my point.<br /><br />I am in no way promoting the majority should impose its will on any minority, nor do I suggest or desire we have religious tyranny.<br /><br />What I am saying is exactly the opposite; no minority has any right to impose its will on any other group, ESPECIALLY the majority.<br /><br />BTW, I have read the Constitution. I can't quote or recite passages, but I have read it.<br /><br />As for the Senate, the reason each state has two senators, regardless of population, is to ensure that each state will have an equal say in Federal legislation. The balance to that check is in the House, where population supposedly dictates policy.<br /><br />I don't want to impose my will on my neighbor and I don't want him to impose his on me. I want to be allowed to express my beliefs just as any other person or group can in this country as long as another's rights are not violated. I don't think I'm violating someone's rights when I verbally or symbolically state a belief.

 

[12Footer]

Re: What defines democratic and majority rule?

Professor, you stated, "I don't understand why most of us must constantly knuckle under to the whims of a relatively lesser number. This phenomenon extends from not having the phrase "one nation under God" in our pledge of allegiance to deciding what we, as a people, decide what is moral and right where our laws are concerned."<br /><br /><br />You need not "knuckle-under" to Christians, but do not expect them to knuckle-under for you or any other group or sect. They answer to a higher power than the United States Government. To understand what is happening in America, regarding this seemingly sudden deversion of course from the old "turn the other cheek" m/o, you'd need to reflect upon the experiances we all have faced in the past 8-10years. <br />There has been a definite and intentional "steering off-course", or errosion of morals that has preciptated to every function in American life. It was not that long ago, that the flashing of a naked breast on network TV was thought to be impossable. You'd have to go back a bit further in our history (1969,to be exact, to find a MOVIE revealing a naked breast, rated anything but "X". For example the film, "A Clockwork Orange", by Stanley Kubrik, 1969, rated "X".<br />The degradation of morals, family values, religious freedoms, unsolicited exposure of indecent materials to the youngest of our children---Has not gone unoticed by the rank-n-file Christian. To each Christian accross this land, there comes a point where an immaginary line is crossed by those forces dragging-down decency standards, so that the new standard is no longer acceptable.<br />The more Hollywood and individuals attack the standard, the more people are offended by the content, saying,"enough is enough". They stand thier ground all of a sudden. It may come as a suprise to some. They, like you, don't quite know how to take this sudden inflexability, where flexability used to be the norm.<br />Christians do not want to make anyone Knuckle-under for thier way of life,or thier morals. Just expect less and less of them to be subjected to increasing moral errosion in thier communities, without retaliation.<br />My personal immaginary line was crossed by the ACLU's assault on the "Ten Commandments" sculpture in the Alabama Capital rotunda last year. I seldom went to church,yet I called myself a Christian. So, in way, the attack FORCED me to make a stand, and thereby, actually strengthening my faith, as opposed to erroding it. In a way, by attacking my faith as they did, they drove me closer to God. So, if there intent was to "protect us from the evil Christians in our midst", they drove one (me) to become a soldier for Christ for certain.

 

[JB]

Re: What defines democratic and majority rule?

I certainly agree with you about the decline of morality in this country, 12Footer, but please don't get the idea that morality is exclusively Christian.<br /><br />The idea that non-Christians are conspiring to defeat morality is too much like a smoke screen.<br /><br />What non-Christians are asking for is the end of having Christian rituals and icons shoved down their throats at every turn. That has NOTHING to do with morality.

 

[cbnoodles]

Re: What defines democratic and majority rule?

12Footer,<br /><br />I am one of the Christians who feel that I am being forced to knuckle under the demands of others imposing their will on me.<br /><br />I agree with JB that this is not the same as many long-standing wrongs being righted. I just feel that many use this reasoning to disguise their desire to manipulate policy for their own benefit or simply to be in control.

 

[12Footer]

Re: What defines democratic and majority rule?

JB, you know me better than that. Of course, man can live a fruitful, morally stable, and happy life, without being a Christian. I know, because I did so for years before making my stand.<br />I just addressed Proffessor's topic from my personal perspective (not yours or his). In a way, he asks to understand what he percieves as an assault on non-Christians by Christians in government.... Which is kind of a bass-ackwards perspective, but less uncommon lately.<br /><br />

Originally posted by The Professor:<br /> 12Footer,<br /><br />I am one of the Christians who feel that I am being forced to knuckle under the demands of others imposing their will on me.<br /><br />I agree with JB that this is not the same as many long-standing wrongs being righted. I just feel that many use this reasoning to disguise their desire to manipulate policy for their own benefit or simply to be in control.

Such manipulation would be virtually impossible in today's ACLLU-controled, litigation-shy government overall. If you are truely worried about policy manipulation by Christians, the place you may want to look into first is the churches. This is where Christian soldiers get thier marching orders, and it is not disquised as anything else. Christians want everyone to be Christians, true. But they don't use government to force thier way of life. They use thier churches.....<br />It's official name in my particular religion is called "ministry". We actually have a special itemized line on our tythe envelopes called "ministries" where we can donate to that purpose. I seldom do, opting to throw my spare change at the "building fund".

 

[12Footer]

Re: What defines democratic and majority rule?

I saw that, Proffessor (finally). sorry. As for the last post, I think we posted simultaniously...So how is the weather there tonight? <br />I understand, you are asking the same questions I did when they assaulted the sculpture, right?<br />I gotcha (i think). But I made the stand you are making now at that time, and it was about time.

 

[JB]

Re: What defines democratic and majority rule?

I believe what I believe, and do not begrudge anyone their beliefs or the practice of their rituals, etc. in a religious setting <br /><br />Your comment that I don't "choose to" believe in a divinity is offensive, as is the comment about liberalism. My religion is private. . .none of anyone's business but mine. I am probably a Libertarian, but even that label sticks in my craw. I do not accept labels.<br /><br />Some things I object to: <br /><br />Putting my hand on a Bible to verify that I intend to do as I swear to do. If a liar is gonna lie, the Bible is irrelevant; if he is gonna do as he swears to do, the Bible is irrelevant.<br /><br />"Under God" in the pledge, "In God We Trust" on currency.<br /><br />Prayer in a public, non-religious setting reminds any non-Christian that he is powerless and dominated by Christian rituals. Try a non-Christian ritual at those events and see how quick you catch fire and brimstone.<br /><br />There are more, but I think you get the idea.<br /><br />I do not argue that morality and values that Christianity shares with moral and ethical people of any religion or without religion shaped our country. . . including slavery, denial of the vote to freemen, defense of segregation and discrimination, denial of suffrage to women, etc, etc.<br /><br />A lot of unjust "values" have been overturned by strict interpretation of our Constitution. There are more to come.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: What defines democratic and majority rule?

JB, what exactly about the historical Christian influence in this country is sticking in your craw? You act like someone is trying to establish a theocracy. After all your years does it bother you to see Christmas decorations, does it ruin your day to see a Manger Display at the local park. Does it really bother your that there is at least an attempt by the judicial system to adhere to the tenants of the Ten Commandments? Do you really belive that a strong society can be held together by the self proclaimed sense of order devised by mortal man?<br /><br />So you choose not to believe in the Divinity. Has it really ruined your life all of these years to have the society around you held in reasonable check by the moral dictates of Christianity?<br /><br />Me thinks you have simply jumped on the liberal bandwagon that is attempting to destroy the only Firewall between socialism and a strong, free, independant United States of America.

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: What defines democratic and majority rule?

SO many people forget this country was formed by christians. The USA is a christian country, PERIOD.<br /><br />We welcome all other religions. We welcome their traditions. We welcome their rituals.<br /><br />We only ask them to do the same.<br /><br />We ask those whos ritial is to have no rituals, to welcome our rituals.<br /><br />Ken

 

[cbnoodles]

Re: What defines democratic and majority rule?

Originally posted by 12Footer:<br /> <br />I just addressed Proffessor's topic from my personal perspective (not yours or his). In a way, he asks to understand what he percieves as an assault on non-Christians by Christians in government.... Kind of bass-ackwards perspective, but not uncommon.

12Footer,<br /><br />Sorry bud but you couldn't have read me more wrong if you had to. I already tried to clarify my position in the last post. Check it out and see if you still think I am saying the assault is Christians on non-Christians.

 

[snapperbait]

Re: What defines democratic and majority rule?

Ditto what JB said...

 

[rolmops]

Re: What defines democratic and majority rule?

Ken,the USA is a SECULAR country.A lot of its inhabitants are christian.<br />The constitution provides freedom of religion in a secular country.<br />The constitution also protects the minority from the tyranny of the majority.<br />Also there is no reason why a republic cannot be a democracy at the same time.Most republics in this world are democracies.If you do not believe this,look at Europe,or read a booklet by Plato called "The Republic".(Plato is the guy who first defined what a republic should be).<br />Oh yes I almost forgot.There are a lot of very religious socialist christians in this world who would feel very offended by anyone claiming modern socialism to be anti christian.

 

[Parrott_head]

Re: What defines democratic and majority rule?

Ditto what JB and snapperbait said...

 

[12Footer]

Re: What defines democratic and majority rule?

Originally posted by JB:<br /> I believe what I believe, and do not begrudge anyone their beliefs or the practice of their rituals, etc. in a religious setting <br /><br /><br />Some things I object to: <br /><br />Putting my hand on a Bible to verify that I intend to do as I swear to do. If a liar is gonna lie, the Bible is irrelevant; if he is gonna do as he swears to do, the Bible is irrelevant.

<br /><br />Agreed. But when was the last time you saw this in a real trial (not on the screen)?<br />Thought so.. The ACLLU took care of that in the early 70's...For good.<br />And it was just a ritual anyhow,that only religious people would think twice before lying, if they had just done so. It's like the fish symbol I stuck to my steering wheel. It's there to remind me of my terribly-agressive driving habits. It helps me. However, that fish symbolises nothing (or just "fishin") to the non-christian who borrows my ride.<br /><br />

Originally posted by JB:<br /><br />"Under God" in the pledge, "In God We Trust" on currency.<br />

<br />You object to that? Well, allrighty then. Don't say "under God" when you recite the pledge. I don't say "One nation" anymore, because we are no longer one nation. We are as devided as we were in 1862.<br />

Originally posted by JB:<br /><br />Prayer in a public, non-religious setting reminds any non-Christian that he is powerless and dominated by Christian rituals. Try a non-Christian ritual at those events and see how quick you catch fire and brimstone.

<br /><br />That's silly, JB.Your fears are not even rational ones here..You see gays marching, but do not participate (I'm allmost sure)--yet, this is not objectionable? I've seen such a display at a NASCAR race when I was 30,with a small group of black-clad women,professing to be witches. I thought it was hilarious back then...It's funny how one's perceptions change. I would probably be one of those fire/brimstone types today, but I doubt it. They had as much right as I did, by my recitation of the pledge, and bowing my head for the pre-race prayer.<br />Live and let live, JB. The constitution says nothing about freedom from religion, but it does grant freedom of. Allow us our basic freedoms, and I think you'll find we are harmless to the path you choose.<br />

Originally posted by JB:<br /><br />I do not argue that morality and values that Christianity shares with moral and ethical people of any religion or without religion shaped our country. . . including slavery, denial of the vote to freemen, defense of segregation and discrimination, denial of suffrage to women, etc, etc.

<br />Me too. I just object strongly to the errosion of those values and morals that are the rock of our freedoms to begin with. To deny Christians the right to assemble and practice thier faith in public is as vitally important as rights of the gays marching at Disney World, or down Main Street USA, to our form of government.<br /><br />

Originally posted by JB:<br /><br />A lot of unjust "values" have been overturned by strict interpretation of our Constitution. There are more to come.

And this is where the line in the sand has been drawn with most of Christianity today. There are groupps out there who want to erradicate us from the face of the Earth, and they care nothing for the lives of anyone else who gets in the way, including thier own! There are those who would make issue out of something as meaningless to thier faith as a sculpture, yet, BECAUSE that very same sculpture DOES mean something to another group, it must be removed from public sight. This disgusted me to the point of changing my life perminently. And I'll not go away until my God calls me. I am a soldier now,fighting for something far greater than I did the last time, when I wore a uniform.

 

[JB]

Re: What defines democratic and majority rule?

Religious rituals at public events?<br /><br />I was beaten up when I didn't bow my head during a prayer at a high school football game, 12er. You call that "assemble and practice their faith in public"? I call that religious tryanny at a non-religious event in a non-religious setting.<br /><br />True, there are groups that would like to see Christianity go away. To demonize seekers of human rights by lumping them with such groups is, unfortunately, typical.<br /><br />To deny selected groups the same rights as others because of "Christian values" is exactly the defense used to oppose the ends of slavery, segregation, etc., etc.<br /><br />"It has always been that way." is another defense to deny human rights. If it has always been that way, it could just as well mean that it has always been unjust.<br /><br />Our country is an experiment in freedom. We have been moving closer and closer to freedom, but we have a way to go yet.<br /><br />Our founding fathers declared us a secular state by forbidding the establishment of a state religion. Then they set about doing exactly what they had forbid. Lovers of freedom have been working on correcting that for over 200 years.<br /><br />The present decline of morality is not the goal or the result of that mission. Christianity has to lose the idea that it is the only, or the true, source of morality.

 

[lakelivin]

Re: What defines democratic and majority rule?

I think JB is correct in pointing out that it is probably necessary to include 'morality' as well as 'religion' in the discussion in order to start to get to an understanding. I'd also add 'tolerance'. Unfortunately, the three terms aren't always highly correlated.

 

[JasonJ]

Re: What defines democratic and majority rule?

Prof, you have made my point for me. Anyone who has read anything I post on this site knows that I am not biased. I do not begrudge anyone being religious, gay, black, stupid, whatever. I have been one to champion the positive aspects that religion can have. I am also one to champion the belief that religion has a place, and it has gone beyond that place. <br />My comment in the other thread is specific. I do not want to get rid of religion, religion is very important. What I want to get rid of is the influence it is having over the direction it is causing our society to go. I agree that there is a moral decline. TV is getting out of control, people are doing things that were unheard of a decade ago, but it is not religion or a lack of it that is the issue. <br />Every time I hear someone say our society is going to pot because of a lack of religion I want to just shake my head. Religion is not the end all be all of the world, and being religious does not exempt you from the moral decline. All I have to say on that is Catholic Priest/Choir Boy. We as man do the worst things imaginable for the sake of religion, so don't tell me that the non religious are killing this country. <br />I resent being lumped into a "minority" because I am not religious. I am not a minority, I am a free man who makes my choices based on my knowledge, moral, and ethical background. I am not constrained to live by a book, and I feel part of why religious people get their hackles up by us is a subconsious desire to be truly free. Yeah, I don't want to live under a religious tyranny, none of us non-religious typs want to live like that. Get used to it, we are not going away, we are not converting, we are here to stay.