Went to check my boat, end up with a removed cylinder head

carrier82

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Greetings from the Baltic Sea! So I'm a complete rookie and went to check my Bayliner '89 1950 today, to make sure everything is ok for the winter. It has been some freezing nights already. I'm a complete rookie and decided to do some routine (or should I say ruining) maintenance on my boat. These american made boats are very expensive here, one must pay at least $8000 for one, regardless of condition (rotten pos), so this rookie decides to take good care of his beloved beauty.

There is a thread of mine about one engine mount bolt being loose here. So I started by knock testing the transom, engine mount and stingers (which I can reach to) to map the rot process. Judging of the sound, transom has a couple of inches bad wood at the very bottom of the bilge. I think I'll try some wood rot fixing epoxy on that, as well as the stingers behing engine mount, which didn't sound very convincing either. Everything else which I could reach without removing the deck seemed to be fine according to the sound.

Before I get into the point, here is my HOWTO on filling your cylinders with antifreeze, in case you wonder how on earth that can be done.

1. Get that feeling you didn't completely manage to drain the exhausts as there is no drain plug at the bottom of the manifolds.
2. Decide you have to do something stupid to try and make things right.
3. Remove the bolts on top of the exhaust manifolds and fill them with antifreeze like on the picture below (notice the funnel).



4. Listen to the burping sound as some voids are filled, enjoying the thought that this was a good idea.
5. Unscrew the spark plugs to realize the cylinders are full of antifreeze.

My rookieness didn't end there, as I didn't do anything to remove the water from the cylinders before starting compression tests. Cranked the flywheel with a wrench, first cylinder showed 15 bars? Quite a high compression I thought, and as I released the pressure I got some antifreeze in my eye. Fortunately I used propylene glycol.

One cylinder on the port side showed no compression at all. I was quite panicked, as the reason I bought this boat was the only a couple of years old, powerful, adorable 350 v8. Next thing I knew I had the port side cylinder head in the trunk of my car.


Carburetor removed, intake manifold next. Does anyone know where the other end of the vacuum hose goes to? When I removed the distributor, I didn't take note of it's location.


Intake manifold removed.

Here are some pictures of what I found (I don't think I found much, so I'm asking for your opinions on this):


Head gasket still in place.


Gasket removed.


Other side of head gasket.

The cylinder with no compression was second from the right on first two pictures. Is the gasket blown from the middle of cylinders? I'm a bit confused, as the cylinder third from right had comparable compression to other cylinders (~5 bars). When winterizing the boat, my garden hose was bent and the water didn't circulate at all for a couple of minutes. Could that have blown the gasket? Could that be the reason of poor compression? Should I get the cylinder head planed before reinstall? On the starboard side, one cylinder had 4 bar compression, while others had 5. Should I remove that head as well?

Thank you for helping a fellow boater, who knows s**t.
 
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boatguya1

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Apr 24, 2009
Messages
444
Re: Went to check my boat, end up with a removed cylinder head

The vacume hose from the dist should connect to the car or truck that Dist should be in. That is not a marine distributor.

Is that a marine carb? I can't tell from the photo.
 

carrier82

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Re: Went to check my boat, end up with a removed cylinder head

It is a four throat Holley. Don't know if it's marine or not...
 
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Re: Went to check my boat, end up with a removed cylinder head

check the heads to see what the valves look like on the cylinder that's low. If the compression is real low I would look there first.
 

Boomyal

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Aug 16, 2003
Messages
12,072
Re: Went to check my boat, end up with a removed cylinder head

It is a four throat Holley. Don't know if it's marine or not...

Marine Holleys will have two inverted "J" shaped float chamber breather tubes. That is so that if the needle and seat fail, it will dump gas down the venturis instead of all over the motor. They also do something to keep the throttle shafts from wearing and creating a leak. They also have a different coating to resist corrosion and they will have power valves with different vacuum values compared to automotive power valves.

As for your distributor, dump it. You are getting no automatic vacuum advance and if you connected it to a vacuum source, your advance curve will be incorrect for the boat motor.

It's water over the dam, now, but I would have done a leak down test before pulling the head. Now all you can do is have the surface checked and the valves themselves checked. I wouldn't bother to do a valve job on just one side. :nono:

 
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xjdriver

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Sep 10, 2012
Messages
341
Re: Went to check my boat, end up with a removed cylinder head

You jumped in a little to quick in my opinion, there are a few tests that could have been done with the heads on to determine the 0 compression. If the gasket was blown inbetween two cylinders you would have low compression on those 2 not just one. Check the valves for that cylinder, make sure there not stuck open. Unless there is hole in the piston, or a really bad blown gasket its hard to get NO compression unless a valve is stuck open, or your gauge is bad. That hose goes to the vacuum advance port on the carb.
 

Boomyal

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Messages
12,072
Re: Went to check my boat, end up with a removed cylinder head

......That hose goes to the vacuum advance port on the carb.

If he has a marine carb (which he should) there are no vacuum ports to hook vacuum advance lines to!
 

xjdriver

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Sep 10, 2012
Messages
341
Re: Went to check my boat, end up with a removed cylinder head

If he has a marine carb (which he should) there are no vacuum ports to hook vacuum advance lines to!

Hmmmm i didnt know that thanks for advising me. From what i can tell by the pics its got an edelbrock intake with a holley double pumper carb (highly doubt it marine) an msd dizzy, with vac advance and an electric fuel pump mounted on the starboard side, not sure how that combo is gona work out on the water.
 
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Bondo

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Messages
70,999
Re: Went to check my boat, end up with a removed cylinder head

Greetings from the Baltic Sea! So I'm a complete rookie and went to check my Bayliner '89 1950 today, to make sure everything is ok for the winter. It has been some freezing nights already. I'm a complete rookie and decided to do some routine (or should I say ruining) maintenance on my boat. These american made boats are very expensive here, one must pay at least $8000 for one, regardless of condition (rotten pos), so this rookie decides to take good care of his beloved beauty.

There is a thread of mine about one engine mount bolt being loose here. So I started by knock testing the transom, engine mount and stingers (which I can reach to) to map the rot process. Judging of the sound, transom has a couple of inches bad wood at the very bottom of the bilge. I think I'll try some wood rot fixing epoxy on that, as well as the stingers behing engine mount, which didn't sound very convincing either. Everything else which I could reach without removing the deck seemed to be fine according to the sound.

Before I get into the point, here is my HOWTO on filling your cylinders with antifreeze, in case you wonder how on earth that can be done.

1. Get that feeling you didn't completely manage to drain the exhausts as there is no drain plug at the bottom of the manifolds.
2. Decide you have to do something stupid to try and make things right.
3. Remove the bolts on top of the exhaust manifolds and fill them with antifreeze like on the picture below (notice the funnel).

4. Listen to the burping sound as some voids are filled, enjoying the thought that this was a good idea.
5. Unscrew the spark plugs to realize the cylinders are full of antifreeze.

My rookieness didn't end there, as I didn't do anything to remove the water from the cylinders before starting compression tests. Cranked the flywheel with a wrench, first cylinder showed 15 bars? Quite a high compression I thought, and as I released the pressure I got some antifreeze in my eye. Fortunately I used propylene glycol.

One cylinder on the port side showed no compression at all. I was quite panicked, as the reason I bought this boat was the only a couple of years old, powerful, adorable 350 v8. Next thing I knew I had the port side cylinder head in the trunk of my car.

Carburetor removed, intake manifold next. Does anyone know where the other end of the vacuum hose goes to? When I removed the distributor, I didn't take note of it's location.

Intake manifold removed.

Here are some pictures of what I found (I don't think I found much, so I'm asking for your opinions on this):

Other side of head gasket.

The cylinder with no compression was second from the right on first two pictures. Is the gasket blown from the middle of cylinders? I'm a bit confused, as the cylinder third from right had comparable compression to other cylinders (~5 bars). When winterizing the boat, my garden hose was bent and the water didn't circulate at all for a couple of minutes. Could that have blown the gasket? Could that be the reason of poor compression? Should I get the cylinder head planed before reinstall? On the starboard side, one cylinder had 4 bar compression, while others had 5. Should I remove that head as well?

Thank you for helping a fellow boater, who knows s**t.

Ayuh,.... Welcome Aboard,... The antifreeze goes into the water jacket,.... NOT the cylinders,....

To be honest, yer creatin' Waayyy more Problems than yer fixin',....

Find yerself a Mechanic, it'll be much cheaper in the long run,...

Btw,.... What motor is this,..?? What drive is behind it,..??
 
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2,906
Re: Went to check my boat, end up with a removed cylinder head

"Greetings from the Baltic Sea". Guys remember that different parts of the world do not play by the same rules. Yes everything should be marine and if it is possible to import the parts then it should be marine parts. If its nearly impossible to import the parts then the OP has to work with what he has or someone state side (where the parts are easy to get) is going to have to step in and help out.
 

Bondo

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Messages
70,999
Re: Went to check my boat, end up with a removed cylinder head

"Greetings from the Baltic Sea". Guys remember that different parts of the world do not play by the same rules. Yes everything should be marine and if it is possible to import the parts then it should be marine parts. If its nearly impossible to import the parts then the OP has to work with what he has or someone state side (where the parts are easy to get) is going to have to step in and help out.

Ayuh,.... True enough Glenn, but boats with Bad parts still Blow Up, anywhere in the world,...

The distributor just Won't Work on a boat motor, as there's no vacuum, like a car,...

'n a Non-marine Carb is in fact an Explosion hazard,...
 

carrier82

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Oct 1, 2013
Messages
118
Re: Went to check my boat, end up with a removed cylinder head

Thank you for the support glenn. Getting a mechanic is out of the question. Labor costs too much around here, and I don't have a trailer nor an appropriate car to tow the boat with to a mechanic. Parts, except for the most basic ones, are quite expensive as well and importing from the States seem to be the best alternative. Unless you do yourself, you'll never learn. And besides, I suppose I haven't done any real damage (yet), and I came here to seek advice on how to avoid making any in the future...

Ok, I must admit there hasn't been many hoorays for me during this weekend. I did accidentally drop the distributor cap, and the top cap cracked.





What the heck is that on top of the distributor?
 

carrier82

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Messages
118
Re: Went to check my boat, end up with a removed cylinder head

Now let's see how "marine" this engine really is.


I suppose they don't put USCG markings on truck starters?


Freeze plugs look like brass.



The carburator propably isn't for marine use. After spraying fogging oil in my eye (why don't they put warnings like "Caution: observe the direction of the nozzle prior to operating the device" on these?) I proceeded by taking some pictures of the cylinder head.




None of the valves were stuck when I removed the head, but I can't figure any other reasons except a stuck valve for the no compression issue. I did triple check the pressure, and checked other cylinders as well. Values didn't change. I didn't realize the possibility of a stuck valve, so I dismantled the head. I'll take it to a machine shop for checking.

As far as I know, there aren't any strict EU or national regulations concerning boats this age, so I suppose I'm not breaking the law by using non marine carburator and distributor. I am however concerned about the safety of my crew. I might grab some red parachute flares to ignite the fumes with in case of engine failure and gas leakage in the middle of rocky sea.
 

carrier82

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Messages
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Re: Went to check my boat, end up with a removed cylinder head

I do understand that there is a possibility of igniting the fumes with car distributor. However, the fumes have higher density than air, and get to the bottom of the bilge. There is approx one metre between the bottom of the bilge and the distributor. And I always use the ventilation before reaching cruising speed.

Xjdriver wondered how this combination performs on the water. To tell you the truth, I've been very pleased with the performance of the engine. Top speed is around 50 knots, and consumption is approximately one liter per nautical mile (at cruising speed of ~22 knots). I apologize for using the metric system.

As far as I know, Is is a GM 350 Vortec gen1 (crate?) engine with one piece rear seal. Outdrive is OMC Cobra.
 
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Bondo

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Re: Went to check my boat, end up with a removed cylinder head

I do understand that there is a possibility of igniting the fumes with car distributor. However, the fumes have higher density than air, and get to the bottom of the bilge. There is approx one metre between the bottom of the bilge and the distributor. And I always use the ventilation before reaching cruising speed.

Xjdriver wondered how this combination performs on the water. To tell you the truth, I've been very pleased with the performance of the engine. Top speed is around 50 knots, and consumption is approximately one liter per nautical mile (at cruising speed of ~22 knots). I apologize for using the metric system.

As far as I know, Is is a GM 350 Vortec gen1 (crate?) engine with one piece rear seal. Outdrive is OMC Cobra.

Ayuh,... Justify it anyway ya like,... yer boat is Still a Bomb in that configuration,...

Both the ignition, 'n the carb, are Not marine rated,...
 

carrier82

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Re: Went to check my boat, end up with a removed cylinder head

If it indeed is a bomb, I will make things right. Now, I'm not swimming in cash but I won't accept the fact that the boat is a floating fire hazard. Which is more dangerous, the distributor or the carburator? Have there been any documented fires or explosions related to the use of car distributors in a boat?
 
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Re: Went to check my boat, end up with a removed cylinder head

it sounds like a standard crate engine was used which also means the cam is probably wrong for a boat. I suggest you look at the local market and tell us what the parts cost so members can come up with ideas on how to help you. The heads are already off the motor so that's going to require parts and machining. Also check your compression gauge as it may have a blockage where the anti-freeze mixed with carbon/soot possible gave you a bad reading by blocking the check valve.
 

Bondo

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Re: Went to check my boat, end up with a removed cylinder head

If it indeed is a bomb, I will make things right. Now, I'm not swimming in cash but I won't accept the fact that the boat is a floating fire hazard. Which is more dangerous, the distributor or the carburator? Have there been any documented fires or explosions related to the use of car distributors in a boat?

Ayuh,... Both,.... A distributor with a vacuum advance, Won't advance, due to the way boat motors are run,...

A Non-marine rated carb can dump gas onto the intake manifold, as well as into the bilge,....

Ya really need Both,...

For the distributor, I'd suggest a Delco EST, it's reasonably priced, here atleast, 'n is Marine rated,...

For the Carb, I like the Carter AFB Clones, such as the Edlebrock Performer series, which is a carbon copy of what Merc now uses,...
The 650 cfm model is a nice fit to yer motor,...
 

carrier82

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Messages
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Re: Went to check my boat, end up with a removed cylinder head

Thank you for the part suggestions. I will look at part prices here. I once ordered a starter pinion gear for my Johnson Seahorse 8 hp outboard. It was 50% cheaper compared to domestic prices, shipping included, when I ordered it from the States. Other diyers here also tend to order parts overseas.

Replacing the carburetor / distributor just doesn't seem like a good idea, marine or not, as the boat runs so well. Why fix something that's working? Ok, I will, if my safety or reliability of the engine requires doing so. Replacing the cam is a no-no, no matter what you tell me :)

What troubles me about the compression issue, is that after noticing no pressure on the cylinder, I tried another one which showed pressure. Then I tested the no pressure cylinder again, with same result - no pressure. Then, just to make sure, I checked another cylinder again, which showed pressure, and redid the test to see the same result again. Also, when turning the flywheel, there was no resistance when testing the cylinder with no pressure, while there was noticeable resistance on other cylinders. I highly doubt it was a gauge issue.

I have only removed one head, and propably won't remove the other. What kind of machining does the head require? I once had an OMC 4.3 inboard at another boat, which really did blow it's head gasket in the middle of run. All I did was have the heads planed at a machine shop (luckily wasn't that expensive) and install with new gaskets - worked fine after that. Now that the engine hasn't overheated, at least by much, what kind of machining will be required?
 
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Re: Went to check my boat, end up with a removed cylinder head

head needs to be checked for flatness and machined if its out. If you can get something like paraffin turn the head upside down and fill up the recess where the valves are with paraffin and see if it leaks out over a few hours which will indicate that the valves are not sealing.
 
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