WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

Forgive my deversion from the orginal question, but the primary reason that DFI engines require synthetics or semi-synthetics has to do with the atomizing of the oil droplets as they are injected into the engine. Both Mercury and OMC learned the hardway that regular TC-3 formed larger droplets as it was being sprayed causing incomplete burning of the oil, causing premature fouling of the spark plugs, causing really ticked off people and lawsuits.( That's in addition to some really bad intial design flaws) Synthetics and semi-synthetics atomize better,are more combustible and do not foul out plugs anywhere near as fast. At onetime( a very long time ago) I used to tell people that the only oil they should not use was Quaker State. That was due to the high ash content. Today I really do not think that there is a bad oil being marketed. While one oil or another may provide an additional slicker or be a little less refined it is in and of itself not an engine killer.

 

[LubeDude]

Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

TheOilDoc:<br /><br />Thanks, I think!!<br /><br />So in english you are saying that heavy metals like Zinc and Molly are not a problem with TC-W3 oils? If you say so.

 

[Captn Dave]

Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

To all:<br />I don't mean to hijack this topic but I'd like to post a quick question to LubeDude. I'd think this might also apply to 4 stroke outboards.<br /><br />LubeDude,<br />You seem very knowlegeable about oils.<br />What's your opinion for recommended oil change intervals for automobiles, for petroleum and synthetic oils?<br />I don't agree with the Consumer's Report oil test because they performed the test on rebuilt engines and also used taxi's. <br />I know of one respected automotive columnists and I also personally know a fleet manager who both still stick with the old 3000 mile interval regardless of manufacturers recommendations.<br />Thanks

 

[18rabbit]

Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

Originally posted by JB:<br /> My ML REQUIRES Mobil 1, but only schedules changes every 12,000-14,000 miles. My investigation into why should be interesting.

The sum total of my knowledge and experience with mechanics and lubricants would rattle inside a thimble. But I don’t let that stop me. I can’t help but be more than a little suspicious of a “requirement” for the use of Mobil 1 as a lubricant for cylinder walls/pistons, shafts/bearings. If manufacturing tolerances were at the molecular level, maybe ... but I don’t think we are there, yet. Not meant as a comment on Mobil 1, I just can’t see the lower end of any motor being designed & manufactured in such a way that the only appropriate means of lubrication is specifically Mobil 1. What happens if the product's formula is changed or discontinued by the manufacturer?<br /><br />Red Neck CPA – Note the first line in my paragraph above. I am putting Motor Guard oil bypass filters on each of the cars and the boat. The boat’s motor is going on a regular oil analysis program. We’re debating what to do with the cars we have but any new auto (likely in the near future) will be on an oil analysis program from the get-go. Following the manf recommendations is easier but it’s not a big deal to grab a couple ounces of oil and mail it to a lab. The feedback is invaluable as the only way to determining when to change the lubricant and as an indicator of the need for preventative maintenance. $15 or $20 a report isn’t going to break the bank, either. If I am going to spend a couple extra bucks I will toss it at the oil lab.

 

[JB]

Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

The secret is in how the computer monitors oil condition, 18rabbit. <br /><br />It is an oil analysis program that keeps a start-stop, mileage, speed, oil temp and electrical conductivity log to decide when to change oil and filter (every time). It provides a readout of how many miles it estimates before service time.<br /><br />Apparently it is calibrated to the electrical conductivity of Mobil 1 and they don't count on any other oil being the same. A different additive package would surely throw the measurement off.<br /><br />Works for me. 12,000 miles on Mobil 1 is a lot less expensive than 3,000 miles on less costly oil.

 

[2cycle]

Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

JB,<br /><br />Maybe off the subject, but is Mobil 1's filter designed to go 12,000 miles between changes? I started using Mobil 1 and buying their filter as well - so I am curious?? Thanks.

 

[jasonbailey]

Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

JB--Don't know if we are straying too far off topic here, but the Silverado has an oil life monitor program built into it. It will tell you when to change the oil. Now if I follow that, the truck will most likely service me well over a long period of time. But, I also know GM is in the business of selling new cars and may not really want the average person keeping their set of wheels for 10 years with over 200k on the meter.<br /><br />I try to change the oil every 3000 miles, normally that stretches close to 4k. This thing has to last me many years and many miles. Changing the oil and lubing the front end costs me about $33.00 every 3000 miles. That is with Mobil 1 and a Wix or AC Delco filter. Not too expensive and I like to tinker with the thing. Especially since my 24X30 garage was just finished. <br /><br />This truck was my new car. When it is paid off in 56 more payments the wife gets a new set of wheels. Most likley a gas guzzling Suburban. Whe have 4 kids, so we need the SUV. When her set of wheels gets paid off I get a new set. So it will be a long time before I get a new car and the thing has to last. I'd be really leary of letting an engine go 12k between oil changes. But I guess I'm a little old school here and I'm doing what my Dad taught me. Clean filters, clean fluids, and consistent preventative maintenance will make your vehicle/boat/OB go a lot longer. Remember cars&trucks are not investments, they are machines that wear out and lose their value, until they become collector's items. An oil change every 3k is just making the money spent on the car last a little bit longer. It does not pay to be cheap on an item that is so expensive in the first place. Just my opinion, I could be really really wrong.

 

[LubeDude]

Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

Originally posted by Wave:<br /> To all:<br />LubeDude,<br />You seem very knowlegeable about oils.<br />What's your opinion for recommended oil change intervals for automobiles, for petroleum and synthetic oils?<br />

Thanks for your support, but as I have stated before, Im no engineer, but here is my take, (Opinion) about it from my past digging and experiences.<br /><br />It somewhat depends on the vehicle, there are several newer engines that are experiencing oil sludging problems as we speek. Toyota, VW Audi, Chrysler to name the most common, but the jury is still out as to why. Most feel it is neglect but not allways. These problems are happening even sometimes with synthetics. Personally I feel it is the small oil sumps and extreme heat. Some of these engines only hold 3 1/2 quarts.<br /><br />Now, with that said, I would say that in common everyday driving, you could easily go 5,000 miles between changes with any of todays regular engine oils, (Even Wallmart SuperTech). However, if you are never letting your engine warm up and continually towing or stop and go driving, a shorter drain interval would be wise. There are so many variables that this is a difficult question. If you use an HDDO, (Heavy Duty Diesel oil, you can easily go from 5,000 to as much as 10,000, when I used them, I went 7,500 miles, The reason the diesel oils hold up better is because they have a much more robust additive package. It is however harder to find a correct weight oil for your vehicle. Normally a 15W-40 is a bit thick for most of todays vehicles. It can be found in a 10W-30 if you search around. If you change to an HDDO you should change the first change out in about 3,000 miles, as they are a very high detergent and will clean out your engine and you should think twice about doing this in an old dirty engine as it could losten things up too much so only do this if you feel your engine is free of any heavy deposits, same with changing to synthetics. Oil filters will easily last 10,000 miles on a clean engine.<br /><br />The High milage oils are basically the same as a diesel oil as far as the makeup goes. (Close). I feel they are over priced though, but good oils.<br /><br />Now on to synthetics:<br /><br />I know several people that have used Amsoil in there computer controlled oil analysis engines with not trouble with getting correct readings. However I have no reason to doubt what JB has claimed about the settings of the computer being geared towards Mobil1.<br /><br />Mobil1 is being found to easily go 10,000 miles and beyond, but an analysis program is the only way to be sure. Some of the Amsoil products are designed for extended drain with a more robust additive package, so if you are going to go for extended drains I would look at the Amsoil. I dont like comparing Mobil1 to Amsoil, other than if you are going to do extended drains, after all Amsoil gets there Base stock from Mobil, and I am using Mobil1 in my RX/7. It now has 282,000 miles and is running strong.<br /><br />It is a myth that Changing to synthetics causes oil leaks. Sort of. I can happen if you have deposits around seals that will be cleaned away with synthetics, also if you have a small oil leak allready, you will have a bigger one with synthetics. Normally though, if you develope a new one, if you hold the course, you will find the leak stopping in a couple thousand miles. The reson is that the esters in a full synthetic will actually soften the seal that is leaking eventually and the leak will stop. I know one person here that developed a leak when he changed over on a high mileage vehicle and developed a leak, but I feel he changed out the oil too soon and now he has a permanent leak. Just MHO.<br /><br />I hope I have aswered your question.

 

[TheOilDoc]

Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

Originally posted by LubeDude:<br />So in english you are saying that heavy metals like Zinc and Molly are not a problem with TC-W3 oils? If you say so.

I will address this question as a courtesy to other members.<br /><br />The Quicksilver and Pennzoil are reputable examples of high performing, high quality oil containing Zn and Mo. There are others. Mo is an expensive additive found in high-end premium oils. It has wear reducing and engine protection benefits.<br /><br />If there is information that tcw3 oils formulated with Zn and Mo cause problems or require excessive decarbing please reference such information member LubeDude. I have seen no evidence or scientific analysis showing tcw3 oils containing Zn and Mo to be a problem. Most all are nmma certified and exist as premium oils. <br /><br />You can not look at Zn and Mo alone or anecdotally. Again, Zn and Mo are synergistic. That is they must be combined with other additives to work. There are infinite formula combinations. To better understand, you must look at the amount of these elements present in the oil, along with the dispersants, detergents, suspenders, carriers, antioxidants, and the entire oil package. Oil scientists balance these things to formulate oil that meets or exceeds the nmma requirements. <br /><br />Zn and Mo come in many versions. Some perform differently and oil samples don't specify. There are sulfur-free versions of Zn and microscopic liquid soluble versions of Mo, and everything in between. Most oil additives must burn to form deposit build-up and ash. But Zn and Mo burn only under extreme temperatures. For example: Mo has a melting point of over 4,700'F. In fact these materials are used to make piston rings and piston coatings. Zn and Mo are transition metals which means they produce a magnetic field and adhere to metals easily. If moly were a bad thing for our engines their rings and pistons would not contain it. <br /><br />Engine deposits due to the use of Zn and Mo are practically non-existent. Moly either goes into the asperities and crystalline structure of the metal surface, or it stays suspended in the base lubricant until the oil is expelled from the engine.<br /><br />Tcw3 Two stroke oils contaning Zn and Mo are safe for your outboard. They require no special decarbing attention. In fact they will generally exceed, rather than meet, the requirements of the nmma. Moly oils are generally listed as "Premium" oils exceeding the performance of non-moly tcw3 oils.<br /><br />Concerns with engine build-up, ash, and decarbing should be directed toward excessive amounts of Ca and Mg in relation to cylinder temperatures that your outboard engine runs at.<br /><br /><br />Relative to the automotive discussion here:<br /><br />Diesel and gasoline oils can be formulated very differently. Diesel oils focus on additives for soot control, foaming, over fueling, and high shear. Thus the higher viscosities are more common. Be careful. Many diesel rated oils will not carry the proper specification for your gasoline engine automobile. Follow your manufacturers change recommendations, grade, and API specification. Changing the oil more frequently will maximize your engine's protection.

 

[18rabbit]

Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

Originally posted by JB:<br /> The secret is in how the computer monitors oil condition, 18rabbit.

That makes since. And I’m not surprised an oil filter is smarter than me. I have a TV remove that does too much...On, Off, and Channel keeps me happy. In 12-years I have yet to figure out all the buttons on the microwave...tho the Start button is pretty worn. And as soon as I find the “manual” for my wristwatch I can change from Oct 5th to Oct 6th! As smart as IT is you’d think it would know Sept doesn’t have 31 days in it. But I guess it’s better than the microwave...in 12-years it hasn’t figured out time is fluid. It's still stuck at “12:00”, and flashing as if it were happy about it.

 

[OBJ]

Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

LOL!!! at rabbit!!!!!!!!

 

[JasonJ]

Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

We never changed the oil in our military vehicles until the analasys said to do it. The analasys was invaluable, as it also foretold upcoming or current minor problems with the engine before we were left stranded. There were M2 Bradleys that never had their oil changed the entire time I was stationed at that particular unit. I can tell you, nothing, but nothing gets flogged harder than a multi million dollar piece of military equipment that is being driven by an 18 year old kid who doesn't have to pay for it. The 3000 mile thing is hype in my opinion. Better to go by time and driving conditions than miles. I change my oil once a year in my truck, and it is only coincidence that I only put about 4000 miles a year on it. In the past, when I drove a lot more, I still only changed it once a year. I do think 22,000 miles is probably a bit much to expect oil to last, but I see no problem with going 5000-6000 miles on dino juice. Yeah, it certainly does not hurt to change more often, unless you factor in that the practice is only speeding our eventual running out of dino.

 

[orca]

Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

G,Day originally posted by interoutboards<br />-------------------------------------------------<br /> Both Mercury and OMC learned the hardway that regular TC-3 formed larger droplets as it was being sprayed causing incomplete burning of the oil, causing premature fouling of the spark plugs<br />________________________________________________<br /><br />I cant speak for OMC but the optimax system does not inject oil in with the fuel, all the oil is pumped to into the crankcase directly onto the bearings, incidently I have a customer who has 1800 hrs with his 135 Optimax and has used generic oil after 20Hrs. We have just fitted his fourth set of plugs.

 

[jafa]

Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

FWIW there is a website discussion group on http://theoildrop.server101.com . You can find VOA's and UOA's on most any automotive and a few outboard oils. You think there are some heated debates on this forum !! A quote from a thread about Mobil 1..<br /><br />snip<br /><br />" Interesting summation. It appears from the virgin analysis that they are using the borate ester(s), instead of the potassium triborates. <br />The borate esters and calcium complexes constitute a secondary AW/EP additive since the ZDDP levels have been lowered. <br />In other words, to take up the "slack," additional secondary AW/EP additives are incorporated in the form of borate esters and calcium carbonates.<br /><br />Moly DTC and base esters appear to be providing most of the Friction Modification function.<br />This also tells me that Delvac 1 is using heavy TME polyol esters to replace the moly as the secondary friction modifier. This is expensive but very effective. "<br /><br />snip<br /><br />But what theoildoc points out is that any virgin oil analysis is only going to tell you half the story. You still have no idea about the carriers, detergents, antioxidants etc that make up the other 99% of what comes in the bottle. Its like trying to find who makes the best beer based on colour.

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

TheOilDoc thanks for joining the board. Your posts are very informative, and from what I know about lubrication, you are dead on correct.<br /><br />Ken

 

[BillP]

Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

The OilDoc points out exactly why using the motor mfgs specs for oil is important for long motor life. They know exactly what metallurgy is used in their motors and which additives work with it.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

ha<br /> I like light colored beer . tastes better than dark oil. my old cheby has 290k on the clock. I got it at just over 100 k<br /> I have changed the oil twice. once at about 200k, when the filter leaked and I ran it dry and then at 270k it popped a head gasket and filled the block with water. it uses about 1 qt every 1000 miles or so and has since I got it. I guess if I had known it was going to last this long I would have taken better care of it.<br /> good luck and keep posting

 

[Mark42]

Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

So what all this discussion means is that Walmart TCW3 oil is good to use, right? Right?

 

[LubeDude]

Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

Originally posted by Mark42:<br /> So what all this discussion means is that Walmart TCW3 oil is good to use, right? Right?

Right! "BUT"

 

[Scaaty]

Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

So, OilDoc, what is your opinion of using Diesel 15-40 in a 350 GM that for 4 years ran on straight 40w? Runs a 5000lb cruiser at 3200 rpm cruise. Does more sitting obviously, and the oil gets dumped in the fall when it comes out. Just curious