WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

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Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Jan 18, 2002
Messages
35
Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

I think this discussion has reached the end. Thanks to all. I'm leaning towards the advice from The Oil Doc and Rodbolt. My Yamaha 250 is a carbed 1995 model that has had a strick diet of WW Supertech since I have owned it (2 years) and it starts and runs like a new engine. I do use fuel additives like seafoam that I think helps keep the engines fuel system in better shape but I have not done a formal decarb as it doesn't appear to be needed. This engine likes WOT and that's what she gets. 5400rpm pushes my heavy 1996 Seminole Marine/Sailfish 236 WAC to 45mph in smooth seas.
 

LubeDude

Admiral
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Oct 8, 2003
Messages
6,945
Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

You will have no problems, espesially sence you are using the seafoam already.<br /><br />Now, this is the way an oil discussion should go!<br /><br />Oh, and TheOilDoc, sorry for jumping to conclutions the other day, I was out of line. Things have been a little out there on oil descussions lately. Again, welcome to the forums. Looking forward to your input. I doubt that there is "ANYTHING" that could be said that hasnt been beat to death already, but we continue to get questions.
 

LubeDude

Admiral
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Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

Originally posted by TheOilDoc:<br /> <br />Oil additives don't deplete. They just get to a point where they can no longer suspend contaminates. Contaminates will eventually saturate the additives, break lose from the oil suspension, and cause engine wear. Additives themselves don't really go anywhere or deplete. They remain in the oil until it is burned.
So, if the additives are not depleted then where did they go? Oil additives do infact "deplete".<br /><br />This is an oil analysis one an abused engine.<br /><br />91 Honda engine<br />miles on unit 120722<br /> miles on oil 22,000<br />oil filter Purolator<br />Iron 13, Should be 0<br />Chromium 1 Should be 0<br />Lead 13 Should be 0<br />Copper 59 Should be 0<br />Tin 0<br />Aluminum 3 Should be 0<br />Nickel 0<br />Silver 0<br />Silicon 3 Generally from outside diet<br />Boron 40 Should be about 110-120<br />Sodium 7 Should be 0<br />Magnesium 457 Should be about 25<br />Calcium 438 Should be around 1500<br />Phosphorus 708 Within specs<br />Zinc 950 Within specs<br />Molybdenum 7 Generally in the 30-50 range.<br />Visc100 13.12 Should be around 60<br />Nitration 12<br />Oxidation 19<br />TBN 3.68 Should be 8-12<br /><br />The following remarks are not mine.<br /><br />Never seen that much copper in a 4 cylinder Honda holy cow !, my guess is that represents about 25,000 to 30,000 miles worth. Some of the other numbers look okay but there are some really high counts in there as well as very low TBN.<br /><br /> Wow. Look at that additive depletion. Anyone ever seen a UOA with calcium, phos, and zinc numbers that low? This oil probably had a good dose of moly when new, but it's almost all gone now due to uptake. Vis is a 40 wt, but my guess is that this WAS a 5w30 that has thickened up.<br /><br />Lets just talk about this, and not get into an argument.
 

cajun555

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 20, 2003
Messages
483
Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

LD, Guess I should have noted that its a '56 Johnson. Thats what the book calls for.
 

Jack Shellac

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Messages
1,661
Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

There is a very informative article on 4-cycle outboard oils in this month's issue of Trailer Boats magazine. While it dosn't apply to 2-cycles, it answers many questions on whether the additive packages are the same for all oils. Very interesting reading.
 

LubeDude

Admiral
Joined
Oct 8, 2003
Messages
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Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

Originally posted by cajun555:<br /> LD, Guess I should have noted that its a '56 Johnson. Thats what the book calls for.
Ya, I guess :eek:
 

swist

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 1, 2004
Messages
678
Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

The problem is that Wally World is slowly but surely putting their competition out of business. They have little incentive to keep quality up on something like oil where no one can tell any difference until it's too late. Perhaps their source is good now, but they have no incentive at all not to switch to someone selling crap. You can see it all over the place. (Home Depot is also famous for this once they drive out the competition).<br /><br />And patronizing that place only makes it worse. Seems to me a good compromise is to buy a generic refinery label like Havoline etc at your local marine store. You'll help keep them in business and it's still a lot cheaper than buying the engine manufacturer's house brand.
 

18rabbit

Captain
Joined
Nov 14, 2003
Messages
3,202
Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

Sounds like one-half of a non-winnable debate on the fundamentals of capitalism. The other side of the argument is equally non-winnable. :rolleyes:
 

TheOilDoc

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Messages
233
Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

Member LubeDude:<br /><br />Your example is not two stroke oil. Two stroke oils will contain few if any of the heavy metal additives you list ie: B, Mg, Ca, P, Zn, Mo <.02-.03%. Instead tcw3 oils base much of their additives on ash-less nitrogen compounds ie: hydrazine. Two strokes use a lost-oil system. Oil is injected, burned, expelled, and new oil is replenished. Your example is an automotive no-loss oil system with 22,000 miles on the same ash-containing oil. <br /><br />The oil analysis you listed does not reference the level of proprietary additives present when the oil was new. The analysis only compares the additives to a standard that the oil analysis company has set. It meets half of those anyway. When looking at what you are calling depletion, you must reference the same new oil as a baseline. Maybe it didn't meet the additive levels when new. You must also take into consideration that the sample is now saturated with contaminates, fuel, etc. displacing the additives measured. <br /><br />Additive depletion is a bad term in oil science. Oils contain detergents, dispersants, and anti-wear additives. In a two stroke none of them go anywhere or deplete until they are burned. They only become displaced. <br /><br />Zn sometimes called zinc dialkyldithiophosphate, zinc dithiophosphate, or zinc phosphate is primarily a metallic anti-wear additive that only comes into play when there is metal-to-metal contact ie: piston/ring scuffing. Metal-to-metal contact is not a normal occurrence and thus the Zn is rarely used. Mo sometimes called molybdenum dithiocarbamate is another metallic additive that can protect rings in high wear situations but it generally isn't needed and rarely used by the engine. If Zn and Mo levels drop in an oil sample the missing Zn and Mo can be found still in the engine embedded on the metal surfaces and parts. Otherwise it has exited the exhaust system.<br /><br />Dispersants and detergents are synergistic. They work together or mutually in groups of two or more. Detergents clean contaminates while the dispersants suspend those cleaned contaminates. They don't deplete or go away. But they can become over worked and over saturated. They become displaced. <br /><br />Fill your kitchen sink up with water. Add 5 drops of concentrated dish soap. The soap contains oil dispersants and detergents. Begin washing fry pans of bacon grease. Soon the detergents can no longer remove the grease and the dispersants can no longer suspend the grease in the water. The bubbles are gone. Lumps of bacon grease become present in the water. But the soap hasn't depleted or gone anywhere. It's still in the sink in the same quantity as it was before. It is displaced, sitting there doing its maximum job.<br /><br />Wal-Mart oil is a good oil that meets the specs for your outboard. It has worked well for a lot of people and it meets the nmma's testing. I doubt you'll ever know exactly what blend of additives are in it. If you ever have trouble with this oil, then it will be a result of the nmma setting their standards too low since it meets or exceeds them. You'll find very little information on two stroke oil that isn't anecdotal. Trust the nmma.
 

LubeDude

Admiral
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Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

The Additive depletion was aimed at somthing 18rabbit said, and I know it had nothing to do with 2 cycle oil. Your explination is just a technical way of saying the additives are no longer doing there job, "depleted", or "displaced," regardless, they are not doing there original job, and just because they are displaced dosnt mean they shouldnt still be recognised in an oil analysis if they are still there.<br /><br />"Wal-Mart oil is a good oil that meets the specs for your outboard. It has worked well for a lot of people and it meets the nmma's testing. I doubt you'll ever know exactly what blend of additives are in it. If you ever have trouble with this oil, then it will be a result of the nmma setting their standards too low since it meets or exceeds them. You'll find very little information on two stroke oil that isn't anecdotal. Trust the nmma".<br /><br />So where did I say it wasnt??<br /><br />I find it difficult to understand why people have to find fault and spend most of there time trying to argue insted of staying on the original question. I do not try to "win and argument" in as must as trying to show what works and what dosnt.
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
45,907
Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

Comments on 4 stroke oils are irrelevant to the thread question.<br /><br />NMMA Certification and manufacturer requirements for NMMA Certified TC-W3 oil should be good enough evidence for anybody. The rest is hype, in my opinion.<br /><br />I believe, however, that DFI engines need a different spec than TC-W3, so don't extend my comments to all 2 strokes.<br /><br />I nearly freaked when I saw a veteran guide pouring TC-W3 (not even Quicksilver) into the tank for his Optimax last week. I thought Merc required a special oil for the Optimax, just as Bombardier does for their DFI engines.
 

NOSLEEP

Commander
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
2,442
Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

It's the same oil.<br />Bombardier has a identification sticker on their<br />E-tec that identifies spark plugs and required<br />oil. tc-w3 is stamped on the plate.
 

LubeDude

Admiral
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Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

Here is a VOA of Mercury Quicksilver Premium Plus. The Premium Plus is designed for the Optimax engines, which is designed to combat carboning of plugs at lower RPMs(idling or trolling). The first set of numbers is a VOA of Pennzoil Premuim Plus(semi-syn). The tech at Schaeffers said the Moly is correct, they ran the sample again to double check. The tech also claimed that the base oil is semi-synthetic.<br /><br />Analysis by Schaeffer's<br /><br />Pennz Premium/Mercury Premium Plus<br />Copper - 0/0<br />Iron - 0/3<br />Chromium - 0/0<br />Aluminum - 0/6<br />Lead - 0/0<br /><br />Additives(PPM):<br />Molybdenum -2/1050<br />Phosphorus - 9/32<br />Zinc - 15/39<br />Magnesium - 0/0<br />Calcium - 38/120<br /><br />Contaminants:<br />AntiFreeze - 0/0<br />Fuel - 0/0<br />Water - 0/0<br />Silicon - 0/4<br /><br />Viscosity@100C - 9.44=SAE 30/7.062=SAE 20<br /><br /><br />Sulfur - 72%/0<br />Oxidation - 11%/0<br />Nitration - 5%/0<br />Soot - 0%/0<br /><br />I dont like to see the Molly being so high, It really dosnt burn clean, also the Zink even though we are talking a small amount, It is known not to burn cleanly either. I find this hard to explain how this can be an "ASHLESS" oil. And whats up with the metals, (Aluminum and Iron) Is ther refining practice less than stellar?
 

jasonbailey

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jul 25, 2004
Messages
253
Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

My .02 are the following. I'm no expert and I don't even play one on TV. I have an 84 Chrysler that I run what ever is on sale that is the TC-W3 standard. The motor runs good and has never left me. That being said, I have a 2004 Chevy Silverado that set me back 25 large. I only run Mobil 1 5-30 in it, and use only Wix or AC Delco filters. Is the Mobil 1 overkill? Probably, but somewhere in the back of my mind I think I'm doing a good thing. When I replace my Chrysler with a new Merc(trying to buy American) I will spend a few extra bucks on oil and buy "the good stuff". So I guess it comes down to buying what puts your mind at ease. Spending the extra $2.60 on a quart of Mobil 1 for my Silverado does not break the bank and makes me sleep a little easier.
 

fatpratt1996

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Sep 19, 2004
Messages
221
Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

So by what you guys are saying, is Quicksilver just a 'so-so' oil. I have a '99 125 elpto. Is this goo oil for this motor?
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
45,907
Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

Quicksilver is excellent oil, FP. It is fine for your Merc.<br /><br />The point of the thread is whether Wal Mart SuperTech is good oil. It is, too.<br /><br />Red Neck CPA: Your comments on Mobil 1 are probably worth a thread in the Non-Boating Tech forum. My ML REQUIRES Mobil 1, but only schedules changes every 12,000-14,000 miles. My investigation into why should be interesting.
 

LubeDude

Admiral
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Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

Originally posted by fatpratt1996:<br /> So by what you guys are saying, is Quicksilver just a 'so-so' oil. I have a '99 125 elpto. Is this good oil for this motor?
I never had any dealings with the quicksilver oil untill I got my Merc 150 and it was full of it when I got it. I ran it after installing new plugs and found them constantly somewhat carboned up although the engine ran fine except for being a little lean at Idle. I have had no carbon issues since I have changed to a full synthetic oil. The quicksilver oil is also rated as an aircooled oil, which I dont like to see in an outboard oil. That may be the reason for the added Zinc and Moly.<br /><br />Its TC-W3 rated and will be fine, but seeing what I have seen with my own eyes, I think it burns dirtier than some. The Pennzoil it is compared to would burn somewhat cleaner IMHO.
 

TheOilDoc

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Messages
233
Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

Moly or molybdenum disulfide is a desirable component found in high-end premium oils. Combined with other additives synergistically, MoS2 is an extreme pressure wear reducing material that adheres to metal surfaces and protects engine parts in the event of metal-to-metal contact. MoS2 provides excellent oxidation stability offsetting the oxidation and wear inhibiting effects of detergents and suspension additives. MoS2 provides a lower coefficient of friction and reduced heat build up. Zinc phosphate falls into this same category as an oxidation and wear inhibitor. Both components increase the viscosity or thicken the oil. Thus the lower viscosity for the MoS2 and Zn containing Quicksilver oil.<br /><br />Calcium phenate and magnesium phenate are the two primary detergent components that cause carbon build up or ash. Unlike the heavy metals of Ca and Mg, MoS2 and Zn are not large contributing factors in the formation of ash. Both the Pennzoil and the Quicksilver have zero Mg and less than .012% Ca. This can be considered ash-less oil. The small amounts of Fe .0003%, Al .0006%, and silicon are interesting but not important. These traces could have entered the oil during processing, transport, or bottling.<br /><br />It is important to know that oil formulations are synergistic. That is all elements work together to establish an outcome. Some oil formulations do it differently than others and some engines will perform differently on those formulations than others. You can not consider the MoS2 and Zn alone. It would appear the Quicksilver is an excellent oil and any oil meeting the nmma specification would be too. Switching oils after decarbonizing the Merc 150 would yield different results from any oil.
 

mattttt25

Commander
Joined
Sep 29, 2002
Messages
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Re: WallyWorld SuperTech 2-Cycle Oil

oildoc- you lost me a few times, but thanks for the expert info. hope you stick around.
 
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