Under floor floatation? Ping Pong Balls?

[CCrew]

Re: Under floor floatation? Ping Pong Balls?

Jailermac, <br />Here's one of the best sources:<br /><br /> US Composites <br /><br />Regards,<br />Roger

 

[1965MT]

Re: Under floor floatation? Ping Pong Balls?

Actually ccrew, you proved my point. There are many materials that can burn on a boat. <br />BTW the floor looks intact.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: Under floor floatation? Ping Pong Balls?

If ping pong balls or soda bottles were a good idead boat manufacturers would use them becuase they are cheap and easy.<br /><br />You don't want to explain to anybody why you did not stick to accepted standards should a tragedy happen. Not a judge and jury, not an insurance adjuster, not to the Cost Guard when a million ping pong balls are floating around the harbor should the hull rupture. No one. Remember, these people are average. You tell the average guy you put ping pong balls or soda bottles in your boat and they are going to think you are negligent no matter what the truth is.<br /><br />Is it possible any of us here will come up with a better way of doing things than the people involved in the multi-billion dollar a year pleasure boating industry? Unlikely. Possible yes, but unlikely. If anyone was going to, my money would be on my hero Bondo for sure. I think he knows how much I respect his opinon.<br /><br />If you want a better way look to the manufacturers and suppliers. They spend billions each year trying to come up with better ways to do things. Anything proven to work is brought to market as quickly as possible. Then if something goes wrong, you can sue them Ayway, you won't look negligent.<br /><br />I am not out to insult anyone. I love the creativity and "what ifs" that go one here. However, I felt almost obliged to say something and at least cause people to see how some of this stuff can backfire and/or how it will be preceived by outsiders should something happen - even something totally unrelated.<br /><br />This is not harsher, more unforgiving environment than the water, as escpecially, the ocean. Even the slightest mishap can lead to real tragedy. Here in Boston you hear about them all the time. Some things are just too risky to allow for much experimentation IMHO.

 

[dixie420]

Re: Under floor floatation? Ping Pong Balls?

i just read this post and i started thinking of the ping pong ball theory. lets think about this, fiberglass is an insulator, ping pong balls are an accelerant, and metal is a conductor. now we know that some types of plastic rubbed together produces static electricity. now lets hit the water, we go down the lake and the vibrations from the boat,(notice i said vibrations, the boat dosent have to flex at all) create a static charge in the insulated compartment you filled with ping pong balls. after enough of a charge is built up it grounds on the gas tank, motor, seat bracket, and anything else metal you have. this spark ignites the ping pong balls, gasoline, whatever flammable stuff you have on your boat, the boat explodes and you drown/burn to death. and if your balls are touching the motor or gas tank then chances are any time you touch the engine, gas tank fill, or anything else holding the charge you get the **** knocked out of you and run the risk of the first scenerio. foam is there for a reason, you think thats the first thing boat manufacturers thought of? if you use ping pong balls you would have to fill the voids with something like foam to keep from killing yourself, defeating the purpose of using ping pong balls over foam. this would also prevent adaquete water drainage. and if soda bottles bio-degraded in 2-3 years, he!! even 15 years, why would we be so concerned about recycling? those things last forever, they do however get weak and crack easy, the lids arent quite as durable as the bottle either. plastic is a bad idea for floatation under a boat floor any way you look at it.

 

[CCrew]

Re: Under floor floatation? Ping Pong Balls?

"BTW the floor looks intact"<br /><br />Actually, I see a gaping hole in the bow area. And I neglected to see your response as to how you're going to explain the ping pong balls to the insurance adjuster. <br /><br />-Roger

 

[pjc]

Re: Under floor floatation? Ping Pong Balls?

I've been following this topic since the the beginning. I got one active project going( Slikker SS160V)-a 1967 hull--<br />NO USCG or other regulatory BS squirted under the floor to keep the craft afloat should I hole 'er--etc. New AB project is a 1980 trihull that Feds had a hull ID plate rivited to 'er-- stated hp, capacity--etc--and the beast is fulla water logged foam.<br /><br />In my honnest opinion, and giving very due regard to posts here from knowledgeable folks----ready for this---<br /><br />Skip the foam crap--I'm going to build my bilges empty--<br /><br />First and foremost--boaters Must Have a PFD for each person where I'm from aboard--smart folks wear same accordingly--in line with common sence for sea conditions, or according to compliance to local laws, etc--bla-bla--<br /><br />Please--no offence to those who posted that they desire safety for their craft by having floatation in the hull in case their in distress--great imo--have your PFD on as well. <br /><br />However, I can not see any value to ping pong balls, soda bottles, uscomposit two part foam--etc--under my deck that is imo an security blanket that may contribute (will if ya got wet foam contributing to wetting your wood structure and rotting same) to damaging the integrity of my boat.<br />No offense to all-place a good bilge pump in 'er--use it.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: Under floor floatation? Ping Pong Balls?

Pat isn't the new closed cell foam waterproof? I think originally they used open cell foam which did absorb water but changed to the new closed cell type once the wet foam problem materialized.<br /><br />You are probably better off with no foam than ping pong balls or soda bottles which at the very least would be difficult to explain.

 

[CCrew]

Re: Under floor floatation? Ping Pong Balls?

Pat, actually in your case, I don't think you'd have an issue. I certainly can stand corrected on this, but the USCG regs regarding flotation I seem to recall didn't kick into force until 1972, and your '67 was obviously built before that regulation. In that case that should be grandfathered. I'd probably be where you are. The '80? Different story.<br /><br />Ralph, based on the US Composites documentation, the 2lb foam carries with it this disclaimer: "The foam will resist absorbing water, however continuous water contact will deteriorate the foam over a period of time. " That same disclaimer isn't attached to the 4lb and above wt. foams, so I'd be curious if that applies. <br /><br />2lb is lighter than what was in my hull. The 2lb is what you usually see for foam in place crating and the like. <br /><br />My overall concern in the rebuild process would be that were there to be an accident that caused an injury or a loss of life, or that where liability needed to be established, could the use of a non-approved foam/product be grounds to establish that liability due to the fact that it could have a contributory effect to the incident. The cost now of the "correct" materials would eliminate the possible need some time in the future to prove that the product that you used was safe for the application. "pay me now or pay me later" may indeed apply here, and the cost now is probably much less than the cost later. <br /><br />-Roger

 

[Bondo]

Re: Under floor floatation? Ping Pong Balls?

Well, I'm Sure I'll Change No ones Opinion here, But,<br />Actually, I'm with Pat Campbell...... The Only added Floatation I'm adding to my newest Rebuild is Possibly into any bilge areas that I can't find a Better Use For....<br />And then it'll be Soda Bottles.....They'll Allow Water Drainage(thru limber holes, to the pumps),+ Air Cirrulation(Less Rot).....<br />Sunlight Degrades Plastics... There'll be No Sunlight in my bilges.....<br /><br />CCrew, With the signage on the side of that boat, You're Lucky it Burnt!!(you probably already know My Opinion on these lovely craft).....<br /><br />dixie420 ,<br />

plastic is a bad idea for floatation under a boat floor any way you look at it. <br />

Just What do you Think Foam IS ???????<br /><br />Ralph Spencer,<br />

I think originally they used open cell foam which did absorb water but changed to the new closed cell type once the wet foam problem materialized.<br />

NO, It's the Same Stuff, It Just Doesn't Work.....<br />

The way manufacturers do it.

?????? Bilgeliner comes to mind...<br /><br />matantiques,<br />

Could a combination of both soda bottles imbedded in the foam work?

This would Defeat the Whole Purpose... Add the Foam,+ the Water Won't Drain.....<br /><br />Ed,<br />

What is your boat worth & how long do you plan to keep it. The expression penney wise & pound foolish comes to mind or maybe do it right the first time. <br />

It's Not about Costs... It's about My boat Rotting out from under Me.....I'm rebuilding a 1973 with No Rot.. I want it to Stay that way..<br /><br />Mr. Fitz,<br />

Most boats use the foam as part of the structure, particular the flooring and side walls.

That Should say SOME boats..... Mostly the bargin basement, Entry-Level, Bilgeliners,+ such.... Real Boats rely on Materials a little Stronger + More Durable than Foam...... <br /><br />djohns19, <br />

The best solution is probably proving adequate drainage. That is NOT a step that many boatbuilders take time to add.

The Most Senseable Statement in this Entire Thread..........

 

[JasonJ]

Re: Under floor floatation? Ping Pong Balls?

Pats statement on PFDs and no need for foam worries me. Foam is not in the boat to save the boat. Foam is in the boat to keep it at the surface to A: give the occupants something to cling to in the event of hull failure or some other dramatic taking on of water and B: Create a larger object to more be easily seen by other boats and by search parties. All this talk about skipping foam and soda bottles and all that horrifies me. This is peoples lives at stake here. I, as a non-swimmer, cannot even imagine having a boat that won't keep my arse alive. Even worse, I cannot imagine having other people on my boat and expecting them to put their lives on the line for my desire to save a couple bucks or worry about rot. A PFD is not enough, you need more. A person will be dead very quickly if they are left in water below 50 degrees, having a boat that is swampped is a much better alternative to bobbing out there on your own. Think about all the water skiers you see out there when they go down. Even with the bright PFDs, they are still hard to see, especially in chop. Do you want to be the one out there at 7 am in the fall, out there all alone and freezing to death because you were worried you might retain a bit of water? I am not sure why any of this is a debate. 2 part foam is the best way to go, period, but anything that will keep that boat at the surface is better than letting it sink so you can die. If a person is worried about water retention, then build the boat to prevent it, don't skimp and risk other peoples lives. This may sound dramatic, this may sound like I need to lighten up, but there is not enough money that can get me on an unsafe boat. Safety first guys.....

 

[steviecops]

Re: Under floor floatation? Ping Pong Balls?

Just a thought. I spoke to the builder of my boat this week for advice on a floor eepair. He told me that he never puts foam under the floors in his boats. Instead, he builds 3 seperate air tanks under the floor for bouyancy. O.K, so if you hole the boat, you will have one air tank full up with water, but the other two, and the sealed deck, should keep you afloat.<br /><br />He said that some people put tank drains into the air tanks, just in case you do get some water leaking in there. With the air tanks, even if you get a cracked hull and it lets water in, your repair is going to be a lot easier and cheaper than tearing out a whole load of wet foam and replacing it.

 

[catfish1]

Re: Under floor floatation? Ping Pong Balls?

I am not sure why any of this is a debate. 2 part foam is the best way to go, period

this is the most sensible statement in this thread!

 

[pjc]

Re: Under floor floatation? Ping Pong Balls?

It is most surely not my intent to offend any, please consider this post with due courtesy--<br />--non swimers should consider learning how--even those who are missing limbs or otherwise unabled can learn to at least float--especialy with a PFD.<br /><br />Giving due consideration to Jasons concern regarding big water (large lakes, etc) I agree that a swamped hull is more likely to be spotted by search party, etc. <br />And Ccrews observation that liability is a concern is very well noted.<br />Bottom line--skip the fluff--place approved foam under the deck if so inclined--AND--install a good bildge pumper as well (jabsco)

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Under floor floatation? Ping Pong Balls?

Hmmmm. Been away crabing, for a couple of days, in my waterlogged boat with the squishy floor. I sure didn't mean to start a brawl here, just looking at viable options for my upcomming project.<br /><br />Maaaybe I'll just start another thread and title it " DOUBLE HULL BOATS WITH WATER TIGHT COMPARTMENTS" FOR UNDER FLOOR FLOATATION"?<br /><br />Seriously, I hope without any bruised feelings here, this post has accomplished alot. I will keep considering alternatives right up to project time.<br /><br />Let's see now.............

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: Under floor floatation? Ping Pong Balls?

Gosh I hope nobody got offended. This thread is just the sort of hashing out that makes iBoats so valuable. Hopefully it cause us all to think a little and that's valuable.

 

[JasonJ]

Re: Under floor floatation? Ping Pong Balls?

I didn't see where anyones opinions were impuned or any feelings were damaged. I thought this thread went much better that that OTHER foam thread of which I was a part of. That one was NOT fun.<br /><br />Pat: Learning to swim has been on my short list for as long as I can remember. I have had people try to teach me, none have been successful. I need a professional instructor that knows how to teach adults how to swim. In all honesty, the year goes by so fast that I never seem to find the time. Interestingly I have no fear of water, despite having drowned and been resucetated when I was 13. I jet ski, boat, all of that. I am sure with proper instruction I would be set. I agree that non-swimmers should try to learn, but if they are careful and smart, there is no reason for them to not be on the water....

 

[pjc]

Re: Under floor floatation? Ping Pong Balls?

oh ya Jason, I vividly recall that "other" foam thread--that person just would not give up--can't recall the guy posting here lately??--I could be wrong though.<br />Regardless of knowing how to swim or not matters little in colder water--a PFD and a boat that floats when swamped does. I spent one summer on Port Washington, WI water safety patrol. We had a "gumby" suit on board our 40' ex coast guard boat in case a person had to enter Lake Michigan. Thankfully I never had to use the suit. Biggest seas I was ever out on were 17 feet, a nasty north easter blowing like crazy. Had a radio call from Sheboygan-to our north-about a small craft 7 miles or so out without power. We were out a few miles and aborted that sucker-seas beating us up.<br />Later learned that craft did gain power and made it in. The CG boat from Milwaukee aborted as well when she reached Port Washington--very nasty afternoon and night.

 

[catmania]

Re: Under floor floatation? Ping Pong Balls?

PFD's are good for one thing, finding the bodies.<br />The best advice is to stay with the boat.<br />Mine doent have any foam, it would sink and sink fast. I wish that it had flotation in it, any floatation is better than none at all. Maybe one day i will drill a hole in the floor and try to inject something, maybe tennis balls. <br />Not having any floatation i have to take precautions.<br /><br />I keep a small inflatable on board, nothing special just the sort of thing that you could buy at walmart, its purpose is to give me something to do while awaiting rescue. Those things take a long time to blow up. <br />I also have a survival suit for each person on board, I guess they are called exposure suits, very comfortable and I encourage wearing them all the time. In the pockets are flares, whistles, strobe lights, a VHF transceiver and maybe a cell phone. If you do up the straps and buckles, stay together, and conserve heat, the suits should keep you alive for awhile until help comes. <br /><br />So unless you want to haul out this stuff all the time, use a nice 2 part foam in your hull, and stay with the boat as long as its floating.

 

[rolmops]

Re: Under floor floatation? Ping Pong Balls?

Hello.<br />After having read a few opinions and thoughts about foam. I decided it was time to play a few rounds of table tennis with my son and during the game I told him about the alternative uses of the ball.He looked at me and laughed.Then he asked me which water I thought the problem was,rain water or leak water?It dawned on me right there.In most cases it is rain water that causes the trouble.So an investment in a good tarp will lengthen the life of whatever foam you choose to put in there.

 

[RTW2112]

Re: Under floor floatation? Ping Pong Balls?

"oh ya Jason, I vividly recall that "other" foam thread--that person just would not give up--can't recall the guy posting here lately??--I could be wrong though."<br /><br />You are absolutely right. I think that "other guy" got tired of arguing with all the know-it-all morons on here and pulled all his posts off that other thread and has not posted since.