Uaw

[kyle f]

Re: Uaw

Pointer,

I have to disagree with you on the innovation part regarding Japanese. Nobody is more innovative than the Americans. The Japanese just take ideas farther. I really have to struggle to think of one thing they invented.

This is true. They have mastered the art of taking someone elses idea and studying, and beatin it into the ground. We are using 20 year old technology in a lot of parts of my plant on new lines.

Its cheap, it works, and its proven. Its not the best, and sometimes not as cost effective... but that is how the Japanese work. They are really scared of what they don't know. Don't even mention trial and error as a way to learn.

 

[i386]

Re: Uaw

Toyota Tundra and Nissan Titan are NOT there.

http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&story=iqsCar&subject=iqs&referer=&aff=national

Time will tell on these two. For the new Tundra (even more so than the Titan) there's just not that much data out on them yet. The Titan came out in '04 and it took Nissan a few years to get the kinks out of them which hurt their CR ratings. Toyota may be doing a little better right out the gate (than Nissan did in '04) with the new Tundra quality wise. Both of these trucks are the results of those companies innovating. There's risk involved in that but sometimes it's worth it. We need to see more innovation coming from the American auto companies. Actually, I think we're starting to. It'll be interesting to dig this thread up in a year or two and see where the ratings are.

 

[orion25]

Re: Uaw

Quote orion 25




You implied that union leaders need to justify their salaries, check Forbes out, don?t think you will find many union leaders on that list.

True but I said they needed to justify their salaries. I did not say they were wise business men............

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: Uaw

I completely disagree. I have 9 people that work for me (one was laid off by delphi recently after 12 years). Every one of them has families, own houses and pay taxes. Our employer is non union and they all have comprehensive health care for themselves and their families. I have never heard any of them complain about not making enough to make ends meet. Hell, some of them left better paying (non-union) jobs for the jobs they have now. If you really think about it every thing is equal in the end - They may be making $2 less an hour but they are not paying a union $50 a week.

Unions had a place many years ago when workers were treated like crap. But now, when hourly workers are the lifeblood of companies, and management realizes it they are just another expense (to the companies and the employees). Unions are driving for membership at the moment because their profits are falling and the executives need a way to justify their pay levels.

Honestly, why should I pay an extra $1700 to $2500 for union benefits on an American car when I can get a more reliable Japanese car without the added tax?????????? I have no desire to pay for the retirement of the UAW employees when I am getting nothing in return (such as a more reliable car). Oh yeah, the Japanese car is also made in the USA and is providing stable employment to US citizens (Honda is in Ohio, Toyota is in AL, Nissan is in TN, and Mercedes is in AL).

I agree with you on a lot of point's Orion, more than you know. But there is a bigger picture here, not my own or your own self intrest's but this country's economic viability, the ability to sustain it's self. We are losing are mfg base or capability at a alarming rate.

Ok i'll try it this way, this current housing crisis being blamed on subprime or high intrest rate's, while the word's are true, the underlying cause is lack of income, they cannot sustain there debt load. Now it goes even further not only is subprime in danger but middle America, they too are on arm's and must now refi and they cannot because they no longer qualify due to higher intrest rate's raising there payment's so high lender's wont go there, there debt to income is to high to big of a risk...

And all of those people make up this country, and if a country is not self sustaining, it become's a credit risk, yes even Amercia has a credit rating in the world community....notice the value of the dollar lately.

Take notice of two market segement's Auto and Housing, first it was the auto ind and after they started failing everything started. Like it or not it is the basis or foundation of this country, so be careful when you buy foreign,your investing in another country........and as to union's well let's just be careful not to throw out the baby with the bath water.

But there is one strong market segment, " OIL"
And the key ingrediant that this country need's so badly..........Cash Flow so we can sustain.... would you like to see what American dollar's are doing for another country

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=dubai+growth

Strictly a opinion and your milage may vary a lot....

 

[mscher]

Re: Uaw

Pointer,

I have to disagree with you on the innovation part regarding Japanese. Nobody is more innovative than the Americans. The Japanese just take ideas farther. I really have to struggle to think of one thing they invented.

I do agree with you that the Koreans and Chinese are scaring the bejeebers out of them. BTW, neither of those two have any love lost for the Japanese either.

Yes Henry was devistated.

I'll probably get strafed for this, but I have always believed that Japan was the best thing to happen to the American auto consumer.

Most American cars and trucks built in the middle to late 70's, from my experience, were terrible P.O.S, built by a disgruntled Union and lazy, greedy management.

Transmissions and engines that had been built by the millions, for years were failing. Window cranks, body trim and upolstry repaired with duct tape. Recalls to replace whole engines (anyone remember the Cadillac 8-6-4?)
A friend purchased a 79 Trans AM, when we picked it up, we cranked the windows down and about half-way down they just loosened and fell the rest of the way. A mere preview of the coming faults and flaws in this car. My boss's new Caddy had the glove box held shut with tape and would stall on a regular basis.

When Toyota started selling cars like the '78 Celica in the US, as well as Nissan (Datsun) and Honda, it was a whole new ball game. They were high quality, stylish, economical and fun to drive. Sales took off big time ,helped by high gas prices and nearly no domestic econocars, thanks to the usual Corporate obsession of high profit, gas guzzlers. They did have some early body corrosion problems (no salt in Japan), but fixed it promptly.

Fortunately, with the help of Lee Iacocca's vision, American manufacturers and yes, even the unions, wised up. They even starting adopting Jap methods of quality control manufacturer and design. Since then, the quality of American is nearly that of the Japanese built cars, sometimes even better.

I could only imagine what cr@p we would be driving today if not for those wily nips. ;-)

 

[thefairlaneman]

Re: Uaw

Im not pro union but it seems that this trying to cut the union is just one more example of american workers having to give up something to the foreigners. American truck drivers now have to deal with a flood of mexican trucks.and every where you look you see people who are aliens doing the same jobs americans do. Breaking up the unions is just one step closer to doing away with the middle class. BIG BUSINESS with big profits for a few is the goal.

 

[Scaaty]

Re: Uaw

Big picture kids...NAFTA, Globalization, has the effect of taking the prosperous wonderful years after WW2 of our country, into the swamp of 3rd world 23 cents an hour (or DAY in spots) for all..get used to it...it will get a hell of a lot worse

 

[SpinnerBait_Nut]

Re: Uaw

Strike done.

 

[aspeck]

Re: Uaw

Since then, the quality of American is nearly that of the Japanese built cars, sometimes even better.

This is the only part of what you said that I have a problem with. Actually, I think the American stuff is BETTER than the foriegn stuff now, but because of the perceptions of the late 70's and 80's, it takes time to build trust and confidence.

Glad the strike is over (hopefully it will be ratified - Union leaders say it will and ordered their minions back to work - and don't you find that interesting that the employer can't order their workers to show up for work but the union leaders can?).

 

[Mike722]

Re: Uaw

I am glad the strike is over. I believe one of GM's and Ford biggest problems is the number of differant models. Build 2 compacts, 2 mid size, 2 full size, and 2-3 differant trucks under one name. Buyers do not need the confusion of a Buick, Pont, Chevy, and Ford and Mercury building alike cars with different names.

Bottom line is build fewer models with higher quanities and quality. Yes some plants will need to close and some people will lose their jobs, management included, but the American auto makers and union will put themselfs in a better position to compete.

 

[ANIMAL]

Re: Uaw

The UAW and most unions have just about striked them selves out of a job. I wouldn't buy any car newer than 1979. That was about the last year that I know how to work on. If you get an older car or truck and fix it up right you will have twice the car at half the cost. And now days no mater what it says on the hood over half the parts in it came from outside of the USA. If people would stop buying junk they might stop makeing junk. I have a 1978 Ford F-250 with over 300,000 miles on it and if I wanted to put about $1,500 in it {$5000 if I wanted to make it look pretty}, it would go another 300,000. It was built back when they built real cars, not throw away junk. Finally a thread I can sink my teeth in too,,,,,let me go get them out of the cup in the bathroom....ANIMAL

 

[aspeck]

Re: Uaw

I am glad the strike is over. I believe one of GM's and Ford biggest problems is the number of differant models. Build 2 compacts, 2 mid size, 2 full size, and 2-3 differant trucks under one name. Buyers do not need the confusion of a Buick, Pont, Chevy, and Ford and Mercury building alike cars with different names.

Bottom line is build fewer models with higher quanities and quality. Yes some plants will need to close and some people will lose their jobs, management included, but the American auto makers and union will put themselfs in a better position to compete.

That is also a WHOLE LOT OF DEALERS that would be out of work - dealers who have worked hard to own their own businesses ... and there is a bit of differentiation between product - basic body parts, but the image is different. Unless you could figure a way to tier the vehicles so the 4 dealerships in a small market could all remain viable, it just wouldn't work.

 

[Mike722]

Re: Uaw

I forgot, but yes dealers will have to go as well. I looked up the major wed sites and here is what I found.

Chevy makes 19 vechicles, Buick 3, Caddy 11, Pontiac 8. That is 41 differant chooses.

Ford 15, Mercury 5, Lincoln 5 for 25 choose. This does not count commercial trucks etc.

Toyota 16
Honda 12
Nissan 15

They only have so many customers. So I believe that if you make 100 cars of one model those cars will have a lower cost per unit then making 30 chevy, 5 buick, 8 caddy, and 7 Pontiac for the same 100 customers.

 

[ANIMAL]

Re: Uaw

If every body is so worried about what the auto makers and unions are doing with the money we give them for their cars "STOP BUYING NEW ONES!!!" Only buy used and they will get the messenge that we are displeased with them. Then they might come ask us what we want. They Used to make cars that got 35 mpg in town and 40 mpg on the highway, but they were to simple a car. They had to go make it complacated so only they could fix it and try to make us belive they can only get 18-20 mpg out of it. They haven't forgot how to build a car that will get 40+ mpg,,,they don't want to. If it doesn't have 5 1/2 doors, seat 8, store 3 months worth of carp in it, and weigh 2.89 tons and have 10 air bags and 30 seat belts they think the public doesn't want it. I just love people that buy a great big SUV and never see a dirt road with it, let alone take it on a real trail and get it scratched and dented. I don't know about every one else but I can find better uses for $30,000. If you gave me a new car I'd sell it, buy an old one and fix it up and have money left over. And have a car that will last 30 more years instead of a car that might last 3....ANIMAL

 

[penst8grad]

Re: Uaw

I'm really glad to see this thread left open. I am sad to see that any discussion of unions always turns into a Union v Company fight. I don't think that either side is blameless. Until American Management makes some major changes in how they view workers and Unionized Workers change their view of company the manufacturing sector will continue to go into the crapper.

Take the time to read these links:
http://www.singerpubs.com/ethikos/html/lincolnelectric.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUMMI

After you do you will see the future of any industry in the USA that wants to be successful. There are plenty of examples just like those. Look at the Top 100 places to work and most of them share the same characteristics. Employment security is at the top for all of them, but they are also much more careful about who they hire since it is a lifetime commitment.

 

[thefairlaneman]

Re: Uaw

I think buying a brand new car of any make is throwing money away. The true value in buying a car is to get one where someone else has paid the dealer.the salesman. and all of the cost that they add up when you buy a new one. Simple math and looking at the market proves it. If they dont start making real gas saving cars they are doomed .union or no union

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: Uaw

Great thread you folks! Lots of spot on stuff. The "read" stimulated the ol' brain cell!!!!

TG: It really is bigger then just oil. Oil is jus' an important energy commodity we all use. China is a much bigger single issue, (and India) then oil is.

Ya can't force things in Capitalism, (which is the best way to allocate: Period). If ya erect barriers and such through politicians ya still have ta deal with reality, (n' pay more fer the reality). We have a manufacturing disdvantage in many areas and automibiles is one of them, (especially if ya have lots of baggage from old deals like Ford n' GM do). Either the retired guys will need to let up a bit or there will be another way out, (as Pointer noted).

The world wide market is putting lots of pressure on all types of labor, as it has for many years. We need to change as a population to more savings and less credit use and less cornsumption. The pay cuts and devaluation of our assets, (currency declines), will corntinue 'till we save more, export more, and cornsume relatively less. NO CHOICE, it must happen.

My overpriced $.02 JR

 

[ANIMAL]

Re: Uaw

Howdy there Merky...I agree with you completely. The only way to go is more saveings, less credit use, and less cornsumption. It gripes me to no end when the credit card comPAINys want me to pay them so I can spend my own money. How ya doin thar OMR.....ANIMAL

 

[orion25]

Re: Uaw

I think buying a brand new car of any make is throwing money away. The true value in buying a car is to get one where someone else has paid the dealer.the salesman. and all of the cost that they add up when you buy a new one. Simple math and looking at the market proves it. If they dont start making real gas saving cars they are doomed .union or no union

I agree completely. I just got a 2002 Jeep Grand Cherokee. The retail list when new was around $27,000. I paid about one third of that. It has 65,000 miles on it. If it lasts until 130,000 miles with little more than routine maintenance then I came out well ahead.

I have never owned a new car. I got my 1993 accord with 35K on it and drove it for 10 years. I sold it with 187K on it. Including 2 timing belt replacements and a radiator it cost me about $7000 to drive it for 10 years (not including gas and oil changes - I changed the oil myself). So I drove it for $700 per year. The monthly payment on a new $30,000 vehicle at 7.5% interest for 60 months is about $600! Why would anyone want a new car?

My payments on the Accord were about $250 a month for 48 months. The Jeep was bought with cash because I saved what I was paying on the Accord each month long after it was paid off...............

I love people that buy new cars. I can buy their trade-ins for cheap because they have already paid the depreciation for me!

 

[orion25]

Re: Uaw

My overpriced $.02 JR

I would say you "undervalued" your opinion. Very good post! It is worth at least $.25.