Uaw

[treedancer]

Re: Uaw

There is a solution, but it would most likely get this thread poofed, so I will not get into it, but in the not to distant past this could go on for at least five pages maybe six.

 

[Bigprairie1]

Re: Uaw

Deals inked so long in the past trying to carry forward another 25 years?...thats going to be tough to resolve. Why would someone do that without a sunset timeline on that.
The unions have given a few concessions admittedly...now maybe its time for some big management to give up a few shekels. It won't take a bite out of this problem but it would be a positive step.
Regardless, and correct if I'm wrong but a lot of the problem lies with employees long retired not wanting to lose their deal regardless of what happens to GM or whoever else is in the way of it.
The results of this situation will set an interesting precedent tho'.

 

[Kenneth Brown]

Re: Uaw

So you guys are saying the retirees should allow them to renig on the deal? Ain't no way I would. Hard headed and stubborn but they ain't gonna burn this ol boy without getting burned themselves.

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: Uaw

So you guys are saying the retirees should allow them to renig on the deal? Ain't no way I would. Hard headed and stubborn but they ain't gonna burn this ol boy without getting burned themselves.

There ya go.....
They negotiated a great deal....
But, if they were indians it would be out the winder...
MUST STOP NOW!.....

 

[1730V]

Re: Uaw

"Why is it that Americans prefer to buy the more expensive but obviously better Japanese cars and trucks??"

Not necessarily true. Five out of the top ten best quality cars in JD Powers reports are Ford built. Mustang, Fusion, MKZ, Mazda Miata, Mercury Milan, GM-Pontiac Gand Prix. Many more in the Top Picks are domestic.
Trucks. Lincoln Mark LT, Chev. Express, Chev. Siverado=best. Top picks, Lincoln MKZ, Mercury Mountaineer, F-150, E-Series Van, Lincoln Navigator, Dodge Dakota, Suburban, Tahoe.

Toyota Tundra and Nissan Titan are NOT there.

http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&story=iqsCar&subject=iqs&referer=&aff=national


The American peoples opinions have not changed and it will probably take another ten to twenty years to effect attitude changes through performance. Whether domestics can last that long will be the test.

Both GM and Ford cut salaried workforces dramatically. Ford cut 33% of its salaried workforce in 2006. That's a lot of people. So management is not the issue. Management benefits are not on par with the UAW.

The UAW needs to take a hard look at their demands.

As far as transplants, they are just that. If the UAW approaches them, they'll just pack up and move leaving workers high and dry. The money goes to Japan, Germany and Korea-not here. Plants are cheap, it's what is inside them that is expensive and it can be moved relatively easily.

We are in a major transition period. We, as a people, have determined that we no longer want or need manufacturing ability on our soil. Especially American owned manufacturing. Whether that is a good decision, or not, only time will tell. American steel production is just starting to make a comeback but the plants are foreign owned.

Just my opinion with some facts thrown in.

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: Uaw

Before you guy's start bustin on union employe's to much remeber this. They are the last bastion of american worker's that can sustain or better said afford a moderate home loan, boat loan, pay for college,pay for college pay for home improvement's get a second mortgage, buy clothes for a family of four, have good credit, buy there kids a car......... kinda the heart of america

You know all those good thing's once taken for granted, if i went any farther id get busted.......... ohh by the way what they make is really small change in the grand scheme of thing's

Union's used to bug me a lot..........but now that they are all almost gone..........and we can all speak to this, Ya dont know what you have, until you lose it.........

 

[1730V]

Re: Uaw

Tail Gunner,

I'm not busting unions. I think they have there place in some areas.

I do think that their management needs to explain to the rank and file the real facts regarding competition and their role in staying competitive.
We all want to rag on unions, especially the UAW all the while forgetting that the largest union in the US represents government workers with benefits that we all directly pay for. Unbelievable benefits.

There is no chance a government employee is going to lose their bennies after retirement. The government will just take more out of your paycheck to cover it. I'm not getting political here, just stating a fact backed by years of proof.

 

[POINTER94]

Re: Uaw

There are millions of Americans doing what you discribe TG without the aid of a union. Unions have their place. But their place isn't to subdivide the profits of privately held business's. They were designed to keep 10 year old boys from crawling into machines and cleaning them, to put a stop to 20hr work days, call attention to unsafe working conditions. They have developed into legalized extortion rings, and the salvation of the great american slacker.

I believe it is sad that huge corporations like GM have put themselves into a position to have to ask for these type of concessions, but the world was considerably different in 1977. And those of you who complain about the quality of American cars, who do you think is putting them together. The finest workforce in the world? Not a promise kept by the unions. Nothing would make me happier than to know I will have healthcare into my retirement. I'm using a 401K plan. I would rather my employer pay for it, but if he did, I wouldn't have a job this time next year because the company would be bankrupt. Responsibilities such as my own personal healthcare, are my responsibilities. I'm not going to wait for my mom to send in the check for me... And if she did, 80% would do just fine..

FWIW, GM is doing a good job of managing/transitioning the company. Buick is likely to be one of the great american success stories. Chevy is stable, Cadillac is back in the same class as the Foreign competitors. Saturn is a trainwreck and pontiac is finding its niche yet. But they are on their way to stability, and that is a reflection of leadership. Peel $2300 off the list price of a cobalt and you will see LOTS more of them on the road.

Swami call: I expect this to be a non-strike, no more than 10 days. Both sides are standing on shifting sand.

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: Uaw

Tail Gunner,

I'm not busting unions. I think they have there place in some areas.

I do think that their management needs to explain to the rank and file the real facts regarding competition and their role in staying competitive.
We all want to rag on unions, especially the UAW all the while forgetting that the largest union in the US represents government workers with benefits that we all directly pay for. Unbelievable benefits.

There is no chance a government employee is going to lose their bennies after retirement. The government will just take more out of your paycheck to cover it. I'm not getting political here, just stating a fact backed by years of proof.

Well so far the mod's have let this thread live, so keep in mind that a guy called Henry Ford understood how a well capitalized econ can work, that is, if your consumer base can afford what a corporation bring's to a market place, that create's viability or sustainablity.

Were gonna get cut off here. good luck out there..


Pointer i will PM you with a few number's in a day or two that will stagger your mind. Rember this, if a country cannot sustain it's own self it is of little value.........ever notice the dollar lately............ and mac and dons's .....a darling of wall street???

 

[kyle f]

Re: Uaw

It is a well known fact that the Japanese factory worker usually works his entire career for one and the same company.The worker dedicates his life to the company and the company rewards the worker with great efforts towards the well being of these workers and their families.
It is part of the Japanese tradition of dedicating oneself to the local nobility.
Companies have taken the place of nobility,but the tradition is alive and well.

Do you know any native Japanese?

Maybe you need to sit down and talk with one. The company work for even has their own school that even college graduates attend before working in the factory.

They teach them all the "little unwritten rules" and specific trades in the (insert company name here) way. They pay them during this time and get no productivity out of them.

Why do they do this? Mainly, it is still a very shameful thing to switch employeers in Japan. Their society, morals, and goals are vastly different than ours. Sure they have Westernized some in they way of living and life, but not in industry.

Yes, they have nice perks upon retirement and all that jazz, but the company isn;t covering the government is.

Do some more reasearch and talk or work for a japanese companyand ask questions.

 

[1730V]

Re: Uaw

"Henry Ford understood how a well capitalized econ can work, that is, if your consumer base can afford what a corporation bring's to a market place, that create's viability or sustainablity."

One cannot argue with that premise. However, Henry Ford paid his workers better than every else long before they were unionized. His workers unionizing was a major blow to him and hurt him deeply. I think unions can be an asset to the workforce and the corporation as long as they work together on common goals. Adversity gets neither anywhere.

kylef, is right on this point. "Yes, they have nice perks upon retirement and all that jazz, but the company isn;t covering the government is."

I think everyone is being very polite and just stating their opinions and observations. I might have stepped on it a bit when I mentioned government unions but there are some facts there.

It's when the bashing and name calling starts that the mod's have to step in. I see their point.

 

[POINTER94]

Re: Uaw

We should reflect on the Japaneese models, they are a country with no natural resources and innovation is their best export. With each year that goes by, the Japaneese are having their lunch handed to them by India, Korea, China, even Mexico. They have seen their markets drop and they are struggling to meet their committments to their citizens as well. I wouldn't point to a country's 52 year model, as a benchmark for the United States. They are struggling more so than we here in the US.

The Japaneese have much to offer, and we should learn from them. What we learn is up to us.

FWIW Henry Ford was DEVISTATED when the union was brought in. It is said he was never the same afterwards.

 

[1730V]

Re: Uaw

Pointer,

I have to disagree with you on the innovation part regarding Japanese. Nobody is more innovative than the Americans. The Japanese just take ideas farther. I really have to struggle to think of one thing they invented.

I do agree with you that the Koreans and Chinese are scaring the bejeebers out of them. BTW, neither of those two have any love lost for the Japanese either.

Yes Henry was devistated.

 

[POINTER94]

Re: Uaw

Sushi????


You are correct, I don't really see the distinction, other than a macro vs. micro view. They are far better with the micro. They are process focused, and they are tenatious in their pursuits.

 

[1730V]

Re: Uaw

"Sushi???" Raw fish? I think God (oops, or it crawled out of the primordial slime) invented that. ))

Agreed on the Micro vs. Macro.

 

[orion25]

Re: Uaw

Before you guy's start bustin on union employe's to much remeber this. They are the last bastion of american worker's that can sustain or better said afford a moderate home loan, boat loan, pay for college,pay for college pay for home improvement's get a second mortgage, buy clothes for a family of four, have good credit, buy there kids a car......... kinda the heart of america

I completely disagree. I have 9 people that work for me (one was laid off by delphi recently after 12 years). Every one of them has families, own houses and pay taxes. Our employer is non union and they all have comprehensive health care for themselves and their families. I have never heard any of them complain about not making enough to make ends meet. Hell, some of them left better paying (non-union) jobs for the jobs they have now. If you really think about it every thing is equal in the end - They may be making $2 less an hour but they are not paying a union $50 a week.

Unions had a place many years ago when workers were treated like crap. But now, when hourly workers are the lifeblood of companies, and management realizes it they are just another expense (to the companies and the employees). Unions are driving for membership at the moment because their profits are falling and the executives need a way to justify their pay levels.

Honestly, why should I pay an extra $1700 to $2500 for union benefits on an American car when I can get a more reliable Japanese car without the added tax?????????? I have no desire to pay for the retirement of the UAW employees when I am getting nothing in return (such as a more reliable car). Oh yeah, the Japanese car is also made in the USA and is providing stable employment to US citizens (Honda is in Ohio, Toyota is in AL, Nissan is in TN, and Mercedes is in AL).

 

[pjc]

Re: Uaw

GM DOES pay for the non-union (white collar) retired employees health benefits. And there are lots of those retired employees. Think GM will take that away from those folks? No way Jose!

 

[treedancer]

Re: Uaw

Quote orion 25




Honestly, why should I pay an extra $1700 to $2500 for union benefits on an American car when I can get a more reliable Japanese car without the added tax?



Your right orion, take health care out of the equation and our auto industry will be more than competitive with any countries auto industry. Of course
our main competition or countries that have what we refer to as universal healthcare. You implied that union leaders need to justify their salaries, check Forbes out, don?t think you will find many union leaders on that list.

 

[pjc]

Re: Uaw

Here's a list of some Unions. Note those that are white collar oriented. Labor Unions are here to stay folks. Teachers, Law Enforcment, office and clerical, and so forth.

Actors' Equity Association
AFL-CIO
AFL-CIO, Michigan State
American Federation of Television and Radio Artists (AFTRA)
Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists (ACTRA)
American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees (AFSCME)
Association of Flight Attendants (AFA)
American Federation of Teachers (AFT)
American Postal Workers Union, AFL-CIO (APWU)
Australian Services Union (ASU)

Bakery, Confectionery, Tobacco Workers and Grain Millers International Union
Boilermakers, Iron Ship Builders, Blacksmiths, Forgers and Helpers, International Brotherhood of (IBB)
Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Trainmen
Brotherhood of Maintenance of Way Employees (BMWE)

Canadian Auto Workers Union
Carpenters Local 897 (Southern California, Nevada, and Arizona)
Chicago Federation of Labor, AFL-CIO
China Labor Watch (CLW)
Coalition of Graduate Employee Unions (CGEU)
Communications Workers of America (CWA)
CWA Local 4900 (Indianapolis)
Cyber Picket Line: World Trade Union Directory

Directors Guild of America

Electronic And Space Technicians (EAST) Local 1553
Exotic Dancers Union SEIU Local 790 (San Francisco)

Fraternal Order of Police

Glass, Molders, Pottery, Plastics and Allied Workers International Union (GMP)
Global Unions



Graphic Communications International Union (GCIU)

Industrial Workers of the World
Iron Workers Local 8
Iron Workers Local 402
International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees Local 835 (Orlando)
International Association of Fire Fighters (IAFF)
International Association of Fire Fighters Local 42
International Association of Heat and Frost Insulators and Asbestos Workers
International Association of Heat & Frost Insulators & Asbestos Workers Local 5
International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (IAMAW)
International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers District 70 (Wichita, Kansas)
International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers Local Lodge 141 (Detroit)
International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers Local Lodge 733
International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW)
International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW) Local 111 (Denver)
International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW) System Council U3 (New Jersey)
International Longshoremen's Association AFL-CIO (ILA)
International Union for the Natural Health, Complementary & Alternative Medicine Professions, ITPEU-OPEIU, AFL-CIO
International Union of Bricklayers and Allied Craftworkers (BAC)
International Union of Independent Industrial Workers (IUIIW)
International Union of Operating Engineers (IUOE)
International Union of Operating Engineers (IUOE) Local 148
International Union of Painters and Allied Trades
International Union of Painters and Allied Trades District Council No. 5
International Union of Police Associations (IUPA)

Laborers' International Union of North America (LIUNA)

Major League Baseball Players Association
Minnesota Association of Professional Employees (MAPE)

National Air Traffic Controllers Association (NATCA)
National Education Association (NEA)
National Association of Catholic School Teachers (NACST)
National Association of Letter Carriers (NALC)
National Football League Players Association
National Hockey League Players Association

Office and Professional Employees International Union (OPEIU)
Office and Professional Employees International Union (OPEIU) Local 107
Organizer, OPEIU, Local 512

PACE International Union
Pride at Work
Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization (PATCO) Local 6881

Screen Actors Guild (SAG)
Seafarers International Union of North America (SIU)
Security, Police and Fire Professionals of America (SPFPA), International Union
Service Employees International Union (SEIU)
SEIU Local 3 (Detroit, Columbus, and Pittsburgh)
SEIU Local 250, Northern California Health Care Workers
Oregon Department of Transportation (ODOT Local 730), SEIU Local 503

Teamsters
Teamsters Local 25 (Boston)
The Ozarks Labor Union Archives (OLUA)
The Newspaper Guild

UE Local 222, CILU/CIPU
United Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers of America
Union Network International (UNI)
United Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers of America
Union of British Columbia Performers
Unite Here!
United Association of Journeymen and Apprentices of the Plumbing and Pipe Fitting Industry of the United States and Canada (UA)
United Automobile, Aerospace & Agricultural Implement Workers of America International Union (UAW)
United Farm Workers of America, AFL-CIO (UFW)
United Food and Commercial Workers International Union (UFCW)
United Government Security Officers of America International Union (UGSOA)
Union Millwright's and Machine Erectors (Pacific Northwest)
United Mine Workers of America (UMWA)
United Steelworkers of America (USWA)
United Steelworkers of America (USWA) Local 12943 (Tennessee)
United Union of Roofers, Waterproofers and Allied Workers

Working America: A Community Affiliate of the AFL-CIO
Writers Guild of America, East, Inc.
Working Women's Forum (India)

 

[Bigprairie1]

Re: Uaw

First, there are some excellent view points in this topic so far. That said, I think the current union model, which is based on and hanging to the past somewhat, is about to come to end. I think it may fade quite a bit more before coming back in a more useful and self sustaining way.
They certainly had their time and place and served and excellent purpose...at the time. People were still very exploited at and for their work. The unions did a huge amount of good in certain aspects and made companies stand up and pay reasonable wages and provide safer workplaces, etc. However things have changed...and they haven't much, so it might just be the unions turn to take it on the chin for a while more.
As for the automakers, you pay a premium for an import that they can't tack onto a domestic car...yet. People still assume (almost across the board) that the domestic quality and reliability are poor in comparison. That comes as a result of those mechanical disasters from the late 70's up into the 90's. Which is its own lesson I suppose. 1730V is right in his comment regarding improved quality (c/ JD Power Survey, etc) but its going to take a while before everyone understands how much better these cars are and that they too might be able to bring more of a premium at some point. This might help pay for some of these union issues.