Trying to install Delco EST Ignition - not going so well

[mguidry629]

I can't really verify what kind of ignition system came factory on this Mercruiser 5.7, but I think it was points. What I found on the boat when I inherited it was an automotive HEI unit. And it ran great, but I wanted a marine set up for safety reasons and the Delco EST was recommended on here (so far I regret that decision).

#1 - Is there any reason you can't use a dial back timing light on this ignition?
#2 - My shift interrupt switch has 12V when in neutrel. When switch is activited it kills the 12V. I was told the Delco EST works just the opposite...should be 0V at idle and 12V when activated as the 12V is what momentarily kills the ignition. Is this correct? If so, how do I wire the switch to correct this?

Now to the major issue I'm having. I have everything wired up correctly to set timing. I crank engine without the harness that includes the shunt. Set timing by ear and let it idle (timing light showed about 12*. Instructions say to install shunt harness and connect black wire to 12V and set timing to 1* BTDC. Done. Then I remove the 12V from the black wire and cut the white wire loop. Nothing changes. Advance stays at 1* BTDC. Then I rev up to about 1800 (runs like crap) and check timing and it is MORE THAN 60* ADVANCED.

So I call the vendor that sold me the Delco EST and he says you can't use a dial timing light. So I go get a check timing light and same thing.

When you disconnect the 12V from the black wire and cut the loop, the timing should jump up a few degrees at idle, correct?

This has to be a bad module right? What else could be going wrong here?

 

[achris]

Re: Trying to install Delco EST Ignition - not going so well

I can't really verify what kind of ignition system came factory on this Mercruiser 5.7, but I think it was points. What I found on the boat when I inherited it was an automotive HEI unit. And it ran great, but I wanted a marine set up for safety reasons and the Delco EST was recommended on here (so far I regret that decision).

Good choice... Post the engine serial number and we can check for you. If the engine was the original in the boat, by 1987 all the Mercruisers were running Thunderbolt IV, a VERY good system. Unfortunately the rip-off Merc want for the parts (mainly the module) is forcing people to the Voyager/Delco EST...

#1 - Is there any reason you can't use a dial back timing light on this ignition?

If you're referring to an advance timing light, no reason in the world.

#2 - My shift interrupt switch has 12V when in neutral. When switch is activated it kills the 12V. I was told the Delco EST works just the opposite...should be 0V at idle and 12V when activated as the 12V is what momentarily kills the ignition. Is this correct? If so, how do I wire the switch to correct this?

Don't know how you're measuring this... But... On the system was per original one lead of the shift cutout switch (let's just call it the 'SCS' and save me a pile of typing ) has one lead going to ground, the other to one of the terminals on the dissy (the wht/grn).

I have never measured the voltage on the wht/grn with the engine running, but it may well be 12v as you say. The important thing is the SCS grounds out that terminal and the system can no longer make sparks. If the Delco system works as this guy says, you are going to need to re-work the entire SCS system. :facepalm:, and as they say in the advertising that it's a direct replacement for TB-IV, I can't see that being the case. I'll downloaded the installation instruction and will have a read through and see if anything jumps out.

Now to the major issue I'm having. I have everything wired up correctly to set timing. I crank engine without the harness that includes the shunt. Set timing by ear and let it idle (timing light showed about 12*. Instructions say to install shunt harness and connect black wire to 12V and set timing to 1* BTDC. Done. Then I remove the 12V from the black wire and cut the white wire loop. Nothing changes. Advance stays at 1* BTDC. Then I rev up to about 1800 (runs like crap) and check timing and it is MORE THAN 60* ADVANCED.

So I call the vendor that sold me the Delco EST and he says you can't use a dial timing light. So I go get a check timing light and same thing.

When you disconnect the 12V from the black wire and cut the loop, the timing should jump up a few degrees at idle, correct?

This has to be a bad module right? What else could be going wrong here?

I suspect you need to shut the engine off to get the module to come out of base timing mode. Try that and see how it goes.

 

[achris]

Re: Trying to install Delco EST Ignition - not going so well

.... If the Delco system works as this guy says, you are going to need to re-work the entire SCS system. :facepalm:, and as they say in the advertising that it's a direct replacement for TB-IV, I can't see that being the case.

Well, I've read through the installation guide and yep, that is the case :facepalm:... So much for it being a direct replacement!!!

I don't know if all of the original engine harness is there, and I also still don't know if it really was a TB-IV system being replaced, but if those things are true then here's the way I'd do it..

The original set up had a purple wire coming into the coil. That's the RUN power lead. It then goes off to the old module.
You are going to need to isolate both terminals of the SCS. One of them may be grounded (the black) through the screw holding the terminal block to the shift plate.
The gray wire is the tacho signal.

Run the original purple lead (that went to the old coil) to one side of the SCS, then run a new (preferable purple) wire from the same terminal on the SCS to the power terminal on the new coil. Connect the tach signal wire from the new coil to the old gray wire. Connect the harness between the new coil and the new distributor. Run a wire (I'd also make it purple) from the other side of the SCS to the 'R' connector of the distributor (I think they provide that connector, yes?)

I've done a TB-IV wiring diagram re-work... See what you think of it... Hope it helps.

That should now work.

Chris........

Here's the original Merc TB-IV wiring.

Here's the modified drawing for the Delco EST..
The parts list numbers, on the right, refer to items in the installation instructions in Figure 1. The installation instruction, btw, are quite thorough and complete.
If you don't have the instructions... They're here -> www.centerstateengine.com/Delco_Voyager_Installation_Guide.pdf‎

 

[mguidry629]

Re: Trying to install Delco EST Ignition - not going so well

It's definitely not a direct replacement.

I tried setting the timing every way imaginable. Set it, cut engine off, cut looped wires. Set it, leave engine running, cut looped wires. Nothing I did made any difference. At idle, the timing would not change. It's supposed to jump 8-12* when you cut the looped wires. It's not.

The way you suggest to wire it, with the purple wiring going "through" the SCS, then to the coil is exactly how this HEI unit was hooked up. The EST has a separate wire just for the SCS, it's a black wire coming off the "timing shunt" harness.

Don re-worked a wiring diagram similar to what you've done for the EST and I've wired it up exactly like that. I'll see if I can find it and post it.....Found it.

I don't have a wiring issue.....yet, but I will if I can get the timing right. This is because of the way the SCS is wired as a closed circuit when disengaged, open when engaged. I need it to do the opposite. My issue is the timing going from 0* at idle to 60* at 1800rpm.

I have plans to run the boat Saturday so I put the HEI back in and it's back to running great.

View attachment 198640

 

[Don S]

Re: Trying to install Delco EST Ignition - not going so well

Here is the procedure for setting the timing on the EST.
Did you start and stop the engine at the right times?

1. Start engine.
2. Install both jumpers shown in blue in picture below.
3. Set timing
4. STOP engine.
5. Remove jumper wires and hook SCS back up.
6. Restart engine and check timing and advance timing



You should set the timing at 12? BTDC. Then when you restart the engine after the jumpers are removed, you should see similar to the chart below.

Engine RPM. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Degrees BTDC
Initial . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12?
600 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21?
800 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 24?
1200 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 27?
1600 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28?
2000 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 29?
2400 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30?
2800 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30?
4000 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30?
4800 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30?

 

[mguidry629]

Re: Trying to install Delco EST Ignition - not going so well

Don - Yes that's exactly the procedure I followed. I tried it a couple other ways as well and the timing was all over the place. 0-60. It made no difference whether it was in 'timing mode' or run mode.

I bought the kit from Aftermarket Marine. I've been on the phone with them throughout the process. They told me I used the wrong timing light and it probably fried the module. They said some timing lights (specifically dial back timing lights) will put off a signal that shorts out something in the module. This makes no sense to me. Anyone else ever heard of this?

Aftermarket Marine is about an hour drive from me and they offered to install it for free, but if "I fried the module" they would charge me for a new one. The fact that they would charge me for a module upsets me since I'm convinced it was bad before I ever touched it, but I do like the offer to install it and time it for me.

Edit for another question: Don, My Shift interrupt is the roller kind....if you hook 12V to one stud of the SCS and hook a test wire to the other stud, should the test wire show 12V when the roller is in the valley (I call this disengaged or neutrel)? Basically, is the switch open or closed when roller is in the valley?

 

[Don S]

Re: Trying to install Delco EST Ignition - not going so well

They told me I used the wrong timing light and it probably fried the module. They said some timing lights (specifically dial back timing lights) will put off a signal that shorts out something in the module. This makes no sense to me. Anyone else ever heard of this?

That's pure BS. You have a bad module and they don't want to send you a new one.

 

[RogersJetboat454]

Re: Trying to install Delco EST Ignition - not going so well

They told me I used the wrong timing light and it probably fried the module. They said some timing lights (specifically dial back timing lights) will put off a signal that shorts out something in the module. This makes no sense to me. Anyone else ever heard of this?

If you're using an inductive timing light, there is no direct connection between the spark plug wire, and primary ignition (module) unless this "signal" happens to be able to travel backwards though the plug wire, jump the air gap in the distributor to the rotor, up the coil wire into the coil, and find it's way into the primary windings.

Complete butt-covering BS... :facepalm:

 

[mguidry629]

Re: Trying to install Delco EST Ignition - not going so well

They're sending me a new module but he said if we use the same timing light it will burn this one up too. My uncle (machinist/engine builder who's built thousands of motors dating back to the 80's) got on the phone with this guy last night and they got in an arguement about all this. Today, this guy tells me that my uncle doesn't have a clue what he's doing. He also said I shouldn't be concerned with total timing. Just set your base timing and your done.... and at 60* advanced the engine wouldn't run. I agree it wouldn't run under a load or it would burn a hole in the piston with a load on it, but hooked up on the muffs with no load it will run with 60* advance. I witnessed it last night. Didn't run smooth, but it was running. Hell, cars now days are running in the 50s at low rpm low load cruising speeds.

This is what I get for trying to save a little money.

I just want the new module to work so I can get on with my life.

 

[achris]

Re: Trying to install Delco EST Ignition - not going so well

Just had a quick thought. The wire between the SCS and the distributor. While the SCS is open (not engaged) that line will 'float', that is, will won't be connected to anything. That could cause problems. The module might be unstable. I would, as an experiment, put a 2,000 ohm resistor between the terminal that wire goes to (at the SCS end) and ground. That way when the SCS is open the wire is tied definitively to ground. In electronics terms it's called a 'pull down resistor'. When the SCS engages it's of a high enough value to not draw too much current....

As I said, just a thought.

Chris.......

 

[Don S]

Re: Trying to install Delco EST Ignition - not going so well

Don't give them a chance with their BS. Don't use an advance timing light. Just get a regular ole flashing light, and make your own marks.
See if this thread explains how to do it.

How to Post Pictures - The Basics?/ 468676

 

[Glastron cutty]

Re: Trying to install Delco EST Ignition - not going so well

I just put the delco in my 4.3. The terminal block that the switch goes through...get rid of it. Its grounding u out

 

[sptjet90Reflexx]

Re: Trying to install Delco EST Ignition - not going so well

I just put the delco in my 4.3. The terminal block that the switch goes through...get rid of it. Its grounding u out

Yup cut both wires on that switch and verify its not grounded anymore and make new connections. This still does not fix your timing issue though

 

[djmakko]

Re: Trying to install Delco EST Ignition - not going so well

. Instructions say to install shunt harness and connect black wire to 12V and set timing to 1* BTDC.
1 degree BTDC for a 5.7?? should be 10 degrees BTDC!

 

[achris]

Re: Trying to install Delco EST Ignition - not going so well

Guys,

This poster hasn't been back for 2 months... I guess he has his problem sorted out....

 

[mguidry629]

Re: Trying to install Delco EST Ignition - not going so well

Sorry guys, I've been receiving the notification emails that this thread is active but I keep forgetting to come back and update.

I never did get this sorted out. They sent me a new module and it did the same thing. Timing was all over the place. They said they couldn't take the unit back and they're very rude (aftermarket marine / www.amarket.com). Something was faulty somewhere in the setup whether it was the distributor itself or the coil maybe...I don't know but I get tired of messing with it. I'm still running my automotive HEI at this point. Actually, I haven't taken the boat out in over a month as I've been busy with other hobbies.

I will just have to take a loss on this Delco unit and probably end up ordering a Marine DUI for $350.

In response to the last few posts; the switch was not grounded when I bought this boat. Someone had rewired it to work with an HEI unit and the switch had been converted to 12V instead of ground. This is one reason I chose the Delco unit since I knew it needed 12V from the switch.

 

[kachenjr]

Re: Trying to install Delco EST Ignition - not going so well

This is a little late probably.. I bought a older boat where the owner tried to put one of these on and had the same thing. Try to do the setting, and the jumper had no effect. The directions state that the coil needs 12V, and if you're not getting 12V from your purple wire, then run one from somewhere you're getting 12v. It calls out specifically if you're getting 10.8 or so, that you've got some kind of resistor in play ( like the starter solenoid in my case ). For S&Gs I just ran the wire from the coil straight to the positive side of the battery, and it started working like it was supposed to. With it running, add the jumper, and it bogged down. Set the timing to what it says, remove the jumper, and boom, advanced timing
Eventually, I just ran a new wire from the ignition switch to be sure.. will do something more elegant this winter.

Hope this helps!

 

[LorenHaus]

Re: Trying to install Delco EST Ignition - not going so well

....So I call the vendor that sold me the Delco EST and he says you can't use a dial timing light. So I go get a check timing light and same thing..... .

Wow.....that's all I can say. Yes, you can use an adjustable timing light. We (Michigan Motorz) sell hundreds of EST kits kits for 3.0L's, 4.3L's, 5.0L's, 5.7L's, 7.4L's, and 8.2L's all day long.

Seeing that I personally deal with this question 10-15 times a day it seems like.... I'll give ya some pointers.....

Generally speaking, when converting from points ignition, the biggest issue I run into is people NOT removing the ballast resistor that is built into the engine wire harness. Points-based ignition uses a lower voltage to operate (4-9 Vdc), where the Delco EST system requires FULL battery voltage (12V-14V charging). When you install an EST kit, the new EST module won't get full battery voltage if the resistor is still installed on the purple wire circuit. Its about the equivalent to an electrical brownout to your home computer, and go figure... it doesn't work right! Running your boat like this for extended periods with low voltage will cause a module to fail. Further, sometimes even WITH the ballast resistor removed, the purple wire still isn't giving the ignition system proper voltage because of other reasons!

Three common problems I've found that are ignition power related:

1.) Corrosion/loose pins in the engine wire harness connector (usually a 1?" diameter connector or an 8-pin rectangular connector)

2.) A dash mounted key switch that has internally corroded from being exposed to rain/seawater (the key switch is where the purple wire power originates from in older boats). KEEP YOUR COVER ON THE BOAT WHEN NOT IN USE!

3.) Gauges that have loose power connections on the back (the purple wire is usually run from the key switch and then daisy-chained across multiple gauges and then back to your ignition coil and just one loose wire on your gauges will cause low/intermittent/lack of power to the coil/ignition module). This is especially true if someone "just upgraded all their gauges because they were old and unreliable". I get this one a LOT.



The only way to make SURE power is at the coil ALL THE TIME, is to put a good multimeter on the purple wire while you are driving the boat. I usually run a temporary extension wire from the coil up to the dash and put my multimeter where i can see it. This is very easy and beats running back to the engine compartment every 2 seconds to see whats REALLY happening...AND, you can watch the multimeter when you hit the waves hard to see if wires are jiggling around somewhere causing intermittent problems.

Sometimes the ballast resistor goes bad and no longer resists voltage properly, which usually leads to constantly replacing your points because they "burn out" ridiculously quick. That's when you go looking for a new ignition system, you buy it, you install it, start having problems with lack of advance, and upon checking the purple wire at the coil it appears you have "good" voltage. WRONG. If you have points, YOU HAVE A BALLAST RESISTOR. IT NEEDS TO GET CUT OUT!

Once you know you have good clean power at the coil, obviously you need to time the engine. This requires the use of a special timing shunt to set the base timing. You cannot just turn the distributor like old points based ignition systems. After i set the base timing, I tignten the distributor clamp down, check the base timing one more time to make sure the distributor didnt move while tightening the clamp, and call it good. At this point I usually rev the engine up to around 3500 RPM in neutral for a couple seconds to verify the timing is advancing properly (5.7L engines are usually 26? total).

After timing is set and you verified the advance is correct, just one last thing....SHIFT INTERRUPT. This is very simple really, it just confuses people because they don't understand how it works. Briefly, shift interrupt is designed to lower engine RPM's at idle so you can SMOOTHLY shift in and out of gear without the CLUNK in your drive. without it, it would be difficult to shift and tear your drive up quickly. MerCruiser used to GROUND the ignition out, however Delco, being electronic, actually APPLIES power to the ignition module. so, in short, cut both wires at your shift interrupt switch. One switch wire will go to your purple coil wire, and the remaining switch wire will go to your single black wire on the distributor. Simple as that. Power into one side of the switch, power out from the other side of the switch. It doesn't matter which wire you use either. Its a switch lol.

Start the engine back up, and now you can test the switch. just push it real quick and then let go and see if the engine RPM's drop. If you hold it, it WILL shut the engine off. The "V-cam" on the shift bracket should flick the switch for about 1/2 second which is just enough to shift in and out of gear propery. If your engine stalls when shifting, chances are your shift cables are out of adjustment (which is VERY common on older boats) from either internally wearing down the plastic jacket, or they're stretched out and need to be replaced. Many older boats should just have the cables replaced because you'll get frustrated trying to adjust the cables that have waaaaay too much play in them anyhow because of age/use.

Hope that helps.

 

[Glastron_V210]

Re: Trying to install Delco EST Ignition - not going so well

Not sure where the op is with this, but I haven't seen a correct schematic yet. I'm pretty familiar with the HEI module so I thought I'd post some info. The HEI module comes in a lot of different flavours:

General Motors 7-pin HEI Ignition Control

This page has a good diagram of how it should be wired in. Substitute purple for the +12, and insert the 'open when spark disabled' shift interrupt switch into the blue (-) coil wire. Add the grey tach wire to the (-) of the coil and you're done.

Both the coil and the HEI module (Otherwise known as the ICM Ignition control module, or the flat thing that lives in the distributor) need +12V. Only the HEI module needs common. This is messed up in a few of the diagrams above.

There are also older versions which were non-computer controlled distributors known as the Delco Voyageurs. I have on my old Glastron.

Check out this info:

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...sc_iX_dGzwZcz2_0mBde_mQ&bvm=bv.52434380,d.cGE

Chay

 

[Bruce57]

Re: Trying to install Delco EST Ignition - not going so well



Well, I've read through the installation guide and yep, that is the case ... So much for it being a direct replacement!!!

I don't know if all of the original engine harness is there, and I also still don't know if it really was a TB-IV system being replaced, but if those things are true then here's the way I'd do it..

The original set up had a purple wire coming into the coil. That's the RUN power lead. It then goes off to the old module.
You are going to need to isolate both terminals of the SCS. One of them may be grounded (the black) through the screw holding the terminal block to the shift plate.
The gray wire is the tacho signal.

Run the original purple lead (that went to the old coil) to one side of the SCS, then run a new (preferable purple) wire from the same terminal on the SCS to the power terminal on the new coil. Connect the tach signal wire from the new coil to the old gray wire. Connect the harness between the new coil and the new distributor. Run a wire (I'd also make it purple) from the other side of the SCS to the 'R' connector of the distributor (I think they provide that connector, yes?)

I've done a TB-IV wiring diagram re-work... See what you think of it... Hope it helps.

That should now work.

Chris........

Here's the original Merc TB-IV wiring.

Here's the modified drawing for the Delco EST..
The parts list numbers, on the right, refer to items in the installation instructions in Figure 1. The installation instruction, btw, are quite thorough and complete.
If you don't have the instructions... They're here -> www.centerstateengine.com/Delco_Voyager_Installation_Guide.pdf‎

I’ve got a question realize this is an old thread but throwing a Hail Mary here, hooked up the purple wires like you stated but the black wire coming off the interrupt switch is a ground, do I un-ground this from the harness and connect to the distributor as you outlined,thx.