To sue or not to sue!

willxuout3

Cadet
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Messages
12
Re: To sue or not to sue!

Forktail:<br /><br />The #2 shop has a water tank! :D <br /><br />The #1 shop has no tank...just muffs :mad: <br /><br />THX :D
 

Forktail

Ensign
Joined
Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: To sue or not to sue!

It's really irrelevant whether or not the Shops are authorized Evinrude/Johnson dealers.<br /><br />You paid for a professional service. You didn't get that service. Doesn't matter who provides that service.<br /><br />Shop #2 didn't find lose bolts at the upper crank bearing. And they didn't find any vacuum passages hammered closed. I see no reason to suspect or implicate the bolts.
 

seahorse5

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jan 24, 2002
Messages
4,698
Re: To sue or not to sue!

Let me explain in detail what the top 2 plugs looke like. They wer dark and looked like charcoal. the surface of the ceramic and electrode was covered by a thick coating of bumpy looking stuff that was dry to look at. VERy slight oil on each of the top 2 plugs.<br />
Not being able to see the plugs to make sure, but your description sounds like possibly a bit of water getting into the cylinder and leaving a granulated type of deposit on the plugs. Not all water intrusion results in wet droplets. This type of deposit is often seen in 60 degree blocks (90 thru 175hp) were water, usually salt water, migrates under the orings and into the #1 or #2 cylinder. Yours may have had a slight headgasket leak in your case. Again, this is a guess.
 

Forktail

Ensign
Joined
Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: To sue or not to sue!

Just my opinion...<br /><br />Yea, it can't be the kinked fuel lines that Shop #2 found as the cause. <br /><br />It must be something else like lose bearing bolts, or water ingestion, or a head gasket. :rolleyes: <br /><br />Point - it doesn't matter. Shop #1 should've found it. That's what they were paid to do.
 

Forktail

Ensign
Joined
Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: To sue or not to sue!

JB, this isn't a court case. And I represent no one. Everything posted here is "heresay", so people reading can take things any way they want. If you want to close this thread down due to what I've posted, then go for it...I have broken no rules.<br /><br />I'm not really sure what you find wrong with what I've posted...other than you disagree with it. :confused: <br /><br />On edit: JB, it looks like you just deleted your last post? If so, you can disregard this one too.
 

willxuout3

Cadet
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Messages
12
Re: To sue or not to sue!

How would a slightly leaking head gasket cause the bearing to fail? Wouldn't that have shown up in the compression test on the top 2 cylinders?
 

seahorse5

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jan 24, 2002
Messages
4,698
Re: To sue or not to sue!

A very very small leakage will not show up in a compression test, it may in a leak-down test, but not likely.<br /><br />Re-read a previous long post by me of how the upper bearing is lubricated. It was not damaged by the top two carbs or fuel hose problems, unless the vacuum port was blocked somehow. <br /><br />Now that you say it was a re-man powerhead and not the orginal block, then no one knows what condition the bearing and crank was in when you got it. The vacuum passagways could have been clogged, something could have happened when the installer had to change the carburetion system, the incorrect bolts could have loosened or sheared and sucked air, etc.<br /><br />From what all you've information that you've given since the start of this thread, I believe that your real issue is with the rebuilder of your replacement powerhead assembly.
 

rickdb1boat

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
11,195
Re: To sue or not to sue!

Sue the hell out of him. You have nothing to lose..
 

WillyBWright

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Dec 29, 2003
Messages
8,200
Re: To sue or not to sue!

You took the motor to your first mechanic to correct a problem. He didn't. You should get your money back (the $750). Offer to split the difference and you'll both walk away feeling partially satisfied. But he didn't create the problem.<br /><br />That would fall on the guy that pieced that rebuilt powerhead together. I think we have some parts compatability issues here. I wouldn't expect your first mechanic to know what the rebuilder did. But there's no way you're ever going to find out who that was. Sucks!<br /><br />You inherited the previous owner's headache. He sold it because he was having the very problems you had. His original powerhead blew and he had a rebuilt one installed, but it had problems. So he sold it to some poor unsuspecting dude. Lucky You!<br /><br />Happens all of the time. But I really don't think your first mechanic should be held responsible for another mechanic's mistake. I think we file this one under "Let the Buyer Beware."<br /><br />You did everything right. You tried the boat before you bought it. The previous owner had no problem with that because he had a fresh set of plugs in it and he knew it would last long enough for a test ride. I'd chalk this one to a very expensive lesson in Human Nature. Sorry you're on the recieving end of a ripoff. I hope you enjoy what you now have. I certainly hope you have much better luck from this point on.<br /><br />Happy Boating!
 

willxuout3

Cadet
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Messages
12
Re: To sue or not to sue!

Seahorse,<br /><br />there is no way of knowing the condtion of theph that blew. i asked the guy about 5 times to supply the info on the reman ph he said had 40 hrs on it. he never gave me the info....maybe should have been the first clue. The 2nd mech I took my ob to originally gave me a quote of $7500 to rebuild my motor. Thats $5000 for the ph and the rest was labor. I fell out of my chair and passed out :eek: :D <br /><br />Anyway, I told him I would supply the reman ph and would pay him the labor to rebuild the carbs and for parts (new vro pump, carb kits, fuel lines, etc) He was really apprehensive and said they wouldn't warranty anything. I agreed because i didn't have a choice. I just spent 10k on the boat and couldn't afford a new OB. When he recived the reman ph that i ordered (cost me $2700) he called me and said he was impressed. He had taken the time to carefully inspect the ph and said it appeared they did a good job. (no welds, etc) He agreed to warranty the rebuild for a year which was a total 180 from the previous conversation. He said he ha seen some really Shi!@!#$ty rebulds and didn't have any experience with the reman company i chose. (EJB Marine in Orlando FL) All turned out well for me in the end though. I have a reliable OB with 35 hrs on it to date and i plan on maintaining it better the most.<br /><br />That still in my opinion doesn't let the 1st mech off the hook. Nobody expects perfection....after all they are 2-cycle engines...made to run like a scalded dog and then fail (eventually). If the first mech had completely torn my OB down and rebuilt it from the ground up it wouldn't have cost me more than about $3000, that would have saved me $1500. Like i said. I've learned alot.<br /> :D
 

willxuout3

Cadet
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Messages
12
Re: To sue or not to sue!

maybe i sould take the seller to court! Hmmm!<br /><br />That guy will get his someday if that's what happened! Ip ersonally am going to keep the boat i have now. Got a good reliable motor and lots of years to come. (hopeful)
 

JoeW

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Nov 8, 2003
Messages
664
Re: To sue or not to sue!

Just in case you needed another opinion, I'll throw my 2 cents in. I've read every reply on this post and I believe the most sound advice I read came from Forktail. <br />All of the discussions about the possible causes of this failure are irrelevent. Willxuout3 has all of the technical evidence he needs, an unbias opinion from a professional. He obviously did not receive the professional work from mech. #1 that he paid for and relied upon. Guys, this is NOT a frivolous issue. <br /><br />Sorry WillyBWright, but I couldn't disagree with you more. If a professional mechanic needs more information from his customer, he should ASK for it. If the customer knew precisely what information the mechanic needed, he probably wouldn't need the mechanisc in the first place. <br /><br />willxuout3, I've gone through a similar situation with a heater repair on my house. If I were in your shoes, I'd wright the letter myself to mech. #1 letting him know exactly what you expect him to pay for and why you think it's his responsibility to pay for it. You probably won't get the entire $5,000.00, so come up with a reasonable compromise. If he doesn't pay up, take it to small claims. It's much easier than you may expect. It's true that, should you win, you will still have the problem of collecting your money, but it sounds like your after more than just the money. I think I know just how you feel. It doesn't feel good when you think you've been HAD and the culprit is out there continuing to impose his incompetence on others. :mad: <br />By the way, I won my lawsuit ($1,500 for a new heater). When the judge heard both sides of the story he awarded me more than I had asked for. :cool: <br /><br />I've seen only one crank problem in my days of boating. It was on my 1972 60hp Merc. The cause was too lean of a mix. It was my fault. I hadn't let the oil mix enough on a fresh tank of gas before I took off from the doc. I didn't get 100 feet from the doc before the crank broke in half.
 

Forktail

Ensign
Joined
Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: To sue or not to sue!

You didn't buy the motor blown up. You didn't bring it to Shop #1 blown up. Not sure how you can blame the previous owner or rebuilder? :confused: <br /><br />The presumption that the previous owner lied or knew there was a problem, or that the outboard was previously rebuilt improperly, is a reach at best.<br /><br />The outboard simply had a kinked fuel line, which if diagnosed and repaired properly by Shop #1, would've saved the outboard.<br /><br />Shop #1 may not have created the kinked fuel line, but they created the blown motor by neglecting to diagnose and repair the fuel line.<br /><br />IMO, it appears Shop #1 did nothing but allow you to blow up your outboard out of pure neglegence. And charged you $500 to do it. <br /><br />For example if you had taken your outboard to a better shop and had the fuel lines repaired properly, this headache wouldn't even exist.
 

denniz

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 21, 2002
Messages
743
Re: To sue or not to sue!

It may have been blown when it got to the shop. Man up and quit trying to blame it on someone else. IF ITS NOT RUNNING RIGHT YOU DONT RUN IT. You blew it. Plain and simple.You sue happy *******s make me sick.Mechanics dont have a crystal ball to tell them whats wrong.Your mechanic was probably well qualified YOU as a owner are not. a upper bearinglube check is not done on a carb job. In fact it is hardly ever done.Sh-t happens stuff breaks. your going to sue a $10.00 a hr. mechanic. WHOA YOUR THE MAN.
 

rickdb1boat

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
11,195
Re: To sue or not to sue!

I had a repair shop troubleshoot a problem with the carburation. They came back and said...."add more oil" (I premix 50:1) about 3 hours later the upper crank bearing disintergrated. It ruined the crank and upper crankcase. It cost me $4500 to rebuild. The "qualified" mechanic who diagnosed the reason for the seizure said it was carburation. The very problem I had the other shop look into. The problem was that the fuel lines from each of the top two carbs were old and when I ran WOT or close to it the lines were restricting and causing a lean condition. I didn't believe him so I want down myself and looked at what he was talking about...sure enough...then fuel lines were restricted. If the other mech had even visually inspected the carbs he would have noticed the restriction. Anyway, I hired an attorney
I disagree rod.A well qualified mechanic would have caught the problem in the first place.
 

Ralph 123

Captain
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Messages
3,983
Re: To sue or not to sue!

If a shop gave me back my boat and said the engine was fine, and it blew 3hrs later, I would be pretty POd. If they could prove to me they could not have known then I would accept it. Otherwise, I would expect them to make it right. That's what they pay insurance premiums for.
 

Elmer Fudge

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 25, 2003
Messages
1,881
Re: To sue or not to sue!

Well,I'm a firm believer in if one pays for professional services in good faith,then it is so deemed upon the service provider to provide the service in a competent and professional manner,everything else is just simply gobbledegook, therefore i am inclined to agree with Forktail on this matter.<br />Willxuout2 if you want to go forward with some form of litigation with this grievance,which i and others feel that you were subjected to.Then my advice is to solicit appropriate consul.
 

Hooty

Rear Admiral
Joined
Oct 2, 2001
Messages
4,496
Re: To sue or not to sue!

"Balderdash"? <br /><br />c/6<br />Hooty
 

Cricket Too

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
May 14, 2003
Messages
1,732
Re: To sue or not to sue!

Hey Rod Knocking...A qualified tech shouldn't need a crystal ball, he should only need to be honest and to use proper diagnostic techniques. I don't believe the guy intentionally overlooked the problem, but he could have looked closer and at the very least he should "Man Up" and take a little responsibility. Regardless willxuout did not asked to be yelled at or talked to like a child, he simply asked an opinion and everyone else is giving him an educated one, so take that tough guy SH-T to another post, we don't need it here!
 
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