The O'Reily Factor show

[JasonJ]

Re: The O'Reily Factor show

Brett, I am not black, so I will never be so arrogant to even presume to vaguely be able to comment on how it is to be black. Soooo, I say again. If you have not been extremely poor, we are talking homeless, no food, no light at the end of the tunnel poor, you do not have a basis to understand it, hence, you should not comment on it. To comment is to display ignorance based arrogance. Am I being too harsh? No, because I went without, and I don't want to hear a damn thing from people who don't know a damn thing about anything. Got it?<br /><br />I will also say it again, because I must not be communicating this point properly. Society cannot function without poor. You must have rich people who need people to do things for them. You must have poor people who need to earn a living so they do the work. Society as a whole is a cooperative element that relies on need to accomplish the task of that functioning society. Someone has to take the trash, someone has to be the cop, someone has to be the doctor. If we had all doctors, society would fail. We need the poor to do the work the rich won't do. Why is that so hard to understand?

 

[BrettNC]

Re: The O'Reily Factor show

I will comment on it because I know what it takes to succeed and escape poverty. Got it? <br /><br />I don't give a da*n about feeling your pain or what emotional turmoil you went through. I care about fixing the problem. That is why I comment on it. <br /><br />Why does that threaten you?<br /><br />I don't think that police officers and garbage men are poor. I don't think that they are homeless. Is that what you really think?<br /><br />We already read your first post. Why did you repeat it?

 

[JasonJ]

Re: The O'Reily Factor show

I know what it takes to succeed as well. It is one thing to succeed from a moderate lifestyle, it is a whole 'nuther world to succeed from nothing. That is the difference. I am not threatened by anything. If you have bothered to take a look at my chosen professions, you might get the idea I don't shy away from the tough stuff. Lets see, a military career. Lets see, an exterminator (can you say Chemical Exposier?)., Lets see, my current progress into a full time career as a Law Enforcement Officer. Do you see anything about what I am that could ever lead you to believe I am threatened by anything? <br /><br />Are garbage men and officers poor? They make honest livings, work hard, and should be admired for the sacrifice they make for the mealy mouthed oxygen theives that sit in their unimpressive self imposed positions of so-called superiority. They are not rich, they are not middle class, so what do you call them? The smart ones make the small amount of money they make work for them, but in the end, according to the Federal Standards, they would be lucky to be called Lower Middle Class.<br /><br />Do you really know what it takes to escape poverty? Do you know it because you did it, or do you know it because you have read the post of someone like me who joined the military to escape poverty? The simple fact that you don't give a damn about any turmoil I may have gone through is a clear demonstration of a lack of empathy. That lack of empathy stems from having never endured it. <br /><br />EDIT: I removed the last sentence because it wasn't very helpful for anyone. I think we all can agree that you cannot even have a hope of succeeding at anything if you don't at least put forth the effort. That is the whole point of what O'reilly was saying...

 

[DJ]

Re: The O'Reily Factor show

We have lost the definition of "education" in this country.<br /><br />Everyone thinks it means a college degree, or more. That is not for everyone, nor was it ever meant to be.<br /><br />Education, to me, means being able to read, write, add, subtract, etc. to the point you can make your own decisions. We are failing miserably at achieving those BASIC goals.<br /><br />We turn up our noses at trade schools because we think they are deemed as degrading. Forty years of liberalism (NEA) has made sure of that. The entire government school system bases it's entire promotional philosophy on how many degrees one has. Never mind you can't tie your shoes. <br /><br />Yet, we cannot find enough plumbers, carpenters or electricians. Until we appreciate people that have a skill, we will NEVER get over this prejudice.

 

[JasonJ]

Re: The O'Reily Factor show

Very true DJ. People have been told for so long that they are not successful unless they are a doctor or equivelant. You never hear kids saying they want to be a plumber. Its just what ends up happening. Heck, I don't remember ever saying I want to be an Army guy or an exterminator or a cop when I was a kid. But that is the path I have ended up on, doing jobs very few people want to do. I must have some perverse need to have a ton of responsibility or something. Who knows. I also have always felt that going to college straight out of highschool is a bad idea. 18 year olds have no idea what they really want. Going and working a couple grunt jobs helps them see what is out there, and they can better decide what they really want to do. Maybe Mom and Dad wants them to be a high-powered corperate lawyer, but maybe the kid finds out he really enjoys landscaping, and ends up running his own landscaping business. If you want to earn a good living, open a customer service business. My boss had the right idea. He came to a small town with a lot of people that have disposable income, and opened up a pest control company. It was just him, then he hired one guy, then two. Now hed has the pest control company, and a landscaping division, and he does just fine.<br /><br />Kids need to know it is okay to grow up and be a trashman, then maybe we will have more kids who grow up to try harder, not just give up because they don't get to be a rap singer or an astronaut.

 

[jtexas]

Re: The O'Reily Factor show

Originally posted by Boomyal:<br />

Originally posted by jtexas:<br />

Originally posted by Boomyal:<br /> You ask the likes of Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams and Clarence Thomas (BTW, Uncle Toms all) and they will all tell you that that inspite of segregation (admittedly not good) Blacks were of much stronger character than many today.

Boomyal, don't take this personal, but that is a racist statement that offends me as a human being and embarrasses me as a white man.

Hmmm?.... wondering what part of statements accurately attributed to someone else could be offending?

"Uncle Toms all" is the first part.<br /><br />Second is, you telling me how somebody else would answer a theoretical question isn't attributing a statement to them, it's you speaking for them, putting words in their mouths. Unless of course the question isn't theoretical; you asked the question & got that answer. In which case the offensive part is you using their statements to support a racist view.<br /><br />Any idea what they might say about character of whites?

 

[jtexas]

Re: The O'Reily Factor show

Originally posted by cpj:<br /> quote by Jtexas "It takes two to tango,then she gets left with the baby."Again,that goes back to the decision that she made to tango,with the knowledge that she could end up with a fatherless child.Unfair blame on the mother? Maybe,but she is the one that will be left with the burden.

Not so much unfair blame on the mother, as unfair letting the father off the hook (not that you're letting him off the hook, he just gets away).<br /><br />

Originally posted by cpj:<br /> <br />A simple but unrealistic approach would be:dont tango with someone you are not married to,and make sure that you have the means to care for the child if you do.

Meaning unrealistic to expect it of the children of welfare mothers. That approach works pretty well for the rest of society, but look at who these children have as role models. It's a situation that can't help but perpetuate itself without intervention.<br /><br />Question is how to support 'em without enabling 'em.<br /><br />

Originally posted by cpj:<br /> <br />All comes back to the moral decay of our nation.Do a study starting at 1900 and ending at 2005.I bet that you would find a corelation between morals(and lack therof)and the number of unwed mothers and a host of other social and economic problems.That is , moral standards go down,social problems go up.

I'm thinking, moral standards decline as social problems increase because it's the population with sub-standard morals that causes the social problems, and that population increases because of the sub-standard morals.<br /><br />Sorry, that sounds way too much like some kind of egg-head sociologist gobbledegook.<br /><br />But I don't see it getting better without intervention.<br /><br />As you can see, I've got plenty of questions but no answers.

 

[cpj]

Re: The O'Reily Factor show

Jtexas,<br />I would have to agree.The solution? I dont know.

 

[BrettNC]

Re: The O'Reily Factor show

It takes discipline, drive, motivation, and a never ending vision on the goal to escape poverty. Wait a minute, none of that could ever be correct, because I was never homeless. Just go ahead and wallow in your own self pity. That will help a lot.<br /><br />What arrogance.<br /><br />I see that you are threatened by people commenting on what can be done to solve a problem.<br /><br />Sorry, but empathy does not solve problems. "I feel your pain" does not solve problems. <br /><br />Telling kids that they will be poor if they become a police officer will not help. Because it is just not true.<br /><br />If the country depended so much on "poor people", aka policemen, garbagemen, throw in your own middle class position here, then new-car dealerships, restaurants, Disney World, the computer you are reading this on, and our entire economic structure would not exist right now.

 

[Mark42]

Re: The O'Reily Factor show

Posted by CPJ:<br /><br />"...that it makes no sense for someone to work for less than what they could get if they draw a welfare check.If we step back and think about it, that really makes no sense...."<br /><br />If the welfare recipient is able to work, they SHOULD work, even if it is less than the welfare check. I say that for the following reasons:<br /><br />1) Working gives the worker a sense of self esteme and importance. <br /><br />2) Regardless of what the work is, it is better to have the person contributing to the economy rather than loafing around all day with nothing to do. If your working you can't spend your time drinking, gambling, and getting into trouble.<br /><br />3) If a person doesn't work, they have NO chance for advancement in the work place. NO chance for raise, NO chance to use their current job as experience when looking for a BETTER job. Whether its sweeping a warehouse floor or doing dishes in a diner, if your not working, you're not building work experience. <br /><br />4) Just because someone is working and pulling in a paycheck does NOT mean they are not eligible for welfare assistence. They can still get food stamps, rent assistance and many other welfare benefits.<br /><br />Just ask the people who were on welfare how they got off. It involves a JOB.

 

[JasonJ]

Re: The O'Reily Factor show

Brett, you are not getting what I am saying, you are interpreting it in a manner that conforms to some viewpoint that you have. I wallow in nothing. I work my arse off every single f##king day to better myself, because I know that no one will do it for me. My 21 year old niece works two jobs and goes to college full time to better herself because she knows what we went through. Every single member of my family works their shiny butts off to better themselves, because they have experienced what the alternative is. That is true dedication and work, not that crap you are spewing.<br /><br />At what point in any of my post did I say that kids should be told that cops are poor? Is it your assertion that kids should be told that they will earn millions if they do blue collar work? That is not only a horrid way to raise a child, it shows you are experiencing life that is removed from reality. Children need to be taught to alway strive to better themselves. They also need to be taught the economics of reality. That reality dictates that when a person chooses to become, say, a police officer, they are doing it for more than a paycheck. Anybody living a life in this world knows cops, or whatever, do not make a living that is proportionate to the risks they take. A lawyer commands a massive income with little risk to life and limb, but perfoms a function the average person cannot do. <br /><br />Good for you for having never experienced what some others have. You should be very proud of being able to talk out of your inexperienced arse about something you have only seen on TV. Maybe you tossed a buck to a homeless guy once, that is about as close to homeless as you give the appearance of having come to. It is very easy to say "I am better because I stayed out of it". Guess what, we are ALL mere minutes from being homeless. All it takes is a loss of job, massive medical injury, a huge recession, a stock market crash, whatever. You think you are immune from it? No one is, and as long as you remember that, you will at least have some vague sense of reality. As it stands, the only thing I hear coming from you is hollow superiority that masks the true fact that you are just another joe on the street without enough real life experience to let you know that you have a lot more to learn about the world. Hows that for arrogance. That's what I get for having life experience... <br /><br />You don't think empathy solves anything? Don't you think empathy is the driving force behind things like, I don't know, helping Katrina victims, 9/11 victims, Iraqi citizens? Do you even know what empathy is? Apparantly not, because you have no idea how it is used or applied do you? If you think empathy is feeling sorry for someone, that is not it. Empathy is actually caring about what is happening to someone else. Feeling sorry is what you do out of guilt, without any real meaning behind it. Are you saying it is not important for our society to care about what happens to each other? To lack empathy is an indicator of sociopathic behavior. You aren't a sociopath are you? I hope not.<br /><br />I want you to understand this, because this is what happens when you talk out of your arse. UNLESS YOU HAVE BEEN THERE, YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.<br /><br />Mark, you are right in what you say, and that is how we were able to pull out from the dregs. During our bad patch, my mom had to actually volunteer for a short period until actually getting a job in the court system. We were not on the dole very long, maybe a year if that. Mom worked her butt off, because like you said, you can't progress on welfare (unless you pump out more kids). I am glad I went through what I have, it has allowed me to appreciate things more than people who have not had to endure it. It has also better prepared me for what the world can toss at me. Are you really prepared Brett?

 

[cpj]

Re: The O'Reily Factor show

Mark,<br />You are correct sir.I hope that you didnt misunderstand my post.I was just trying to show the stupidity of our welfare system.Sit at home and make more than minimum wage.How about pick up trash along the highway and earn your check?

 

[Mark42]

Re: The O'Reily Factor show

cpj,<br /><br />Yep, I sure misunderstood that one. My mistake. But what I posted is still true. More people should be aware of it. <br /><br />Unfortunatally, the highway trash pickup jobs in NJ are already taken by the SLAP project (Sheriff's Labor Assistance Program). Low risk offenders reduce their county jail time by cleaning up the highway in bright orange jumpsuits. I'm sure it costs some bucks to bus them around and pay for the sheriffs to watch them. But I'm sure the dividends they receive in reduced inmate problems and cleaner highways are well worth it.

 

[gonefishie]

Re: The O'Reily Factor show

Having empathy for disaster, terrorist attack victims is one thing but having empathy for the peoples who continually being a burden on society is a whole different thing. A high powered corporate lawyer parents would have push their kids into something more than a landscaping profession from day one not if there are anything wrong with being a landscaper but good parents know what good for their children and ALWAYS push them hard to succeed. Going to college right out of high school is the best thing for 18 yrs old kids to do. With the right up bringing most if not all 18 yrs old should at least have an idea what they want to do. Taking a couple years off would get them in trouble, make them not want to deal with school since they have been out for so long. <br />Our welfare struture should be change to just supporting the elderly and the disabled. If you're able and come under unfortunate circumstances you can be eligible but for only a short period and you can't reapply once your time is up. Having more kids doesn't increase your welfare check amount. Not fair to the kids you might say? True but that will force less kid and force the parent to work harder to stay out of welfare. There are 24 hrs in a day, you can always work two jobs.

 

[jtexas]

Re: The O'Reily Factor show

A welfare-to-work program should, for a limited time, continue to pay benefits that supplement wages to the extent that will not be more profitable to stay home.<br /><br />Ok, what about the single mother of 6, how much will day-care cost her (i.e. cost the taxpayer)? We willing to foot that bill to get her into a job so she can teach her kids some self-respect? Why not use that day-care time as an opportunity to indoctrinate the children on how to become more productive citizens?

 

[Boomyal]

Re: The O'Reily Factor show

Originally posted by jtexas:<br /> <br />Ok, what about the single mother of 6, how much will day-care cost her (i.e. cost the taxpayer)? We willing to foot that bill to get her into a job so she can teach her kids some self-respect? Why not use that day-care time as an opportunity to indoctrinate the children on how to become more productive citizens?

I agree whole heartedly jtexas. Use the day care to indirectly, but effectively, shame their mother for having too many kids, most likely by different sperm donors, most likely out of wedlock and then having to depend on the State to take care of them all.<br /><br />I think that would be a very effective way to insure that the next generation does not fall into the same old habits.

 

[Tinkrrr]

Re: The O'Reily Factor show

Originally posted by gonefishie:<br /> A high powered corporate lawyer parents would have push their kids into something more than a landscaping profession from day one not if there are anything wrong with being a landscaper but good parents know what good for their children and ALWAYS push them hard to succeed. Going to college right out of high school is the best thing for 18 yrs old kids to do. With the right up bringing most if not all 18 yrs old should at least have an idea what they want to do.

20 odd years ago I was a "high powered corporate lawyer". Before that I'd left school at 15 and knocked around a fair bit. Most of my subsequent legal career, judged by the standards of the usual legal pecking order, has been spectacularly unimpressive. It has revolved around legal aid, which was something I was involved in when it was very unfashionable for a law student 30 years ago and which has been the main focus of my legal career for 30 years.<br /><br />My 15 y.o. son wants to be a carpenter.<br /><br />He has the brains to be just about anything he wants to be.<br /><br />I've discussed it with him and explained the realities of physical labour and how there's not a lot of blokes over 40 on the tools on building sites.<br /><br />I've also told him that if he really wants to be a carpenter I'll support his decision.<br /><br />And so I will. <br /><br />It's his life.<br /><br />All I can do is guide him.<br /><br />Lots of people consigned me to the scrapheap from age 12 (or a lot earlier with my first stepmother) to my late '20's.<br /><br />I've disappointed a lot of people, including my kids, by not exploiting my money earning capacity in corporate law etc.<br /><br />I'm pretty much satisfied with the career decisions I've made.<br /><br />If other people don't like my life, they can take a flying f**k at themselves for all I care.<br /><br />Pretty much how I think my son is entitled to think about the decisions he makes and the career he chooses. It's his life.

 

[DJ]

Re: The O'Reily Factor show

Pretty much how I think my son is entitled to think about the decisions he makes and the career he chooses. It's his life.<br />

Yet, you have an influence. Don't deny or abdicate that responsibility.

 

[JasonJ]

Re: The O'Reily Factor show

Gonefishie, I'm hearin' what you are saying, and on paper it makes sense. I just have met and talked to so many people who wish they would have taken a break between high school and college to figure things out. I have met a lot of "Career students" who just can't figure out what they want to be when they grow up, yet they are hobbled by the fact that they havn't experienced anything beyond campus life. <br /><br />I suppose it also depends on the individual. Some kids figure it out pretty quickly, and they go for it. Others need time to figure it out. The worst thing you can do as a parent is to force your child to do something they don't want to do. You not only build resentment, but you waste time and money. Children need to know all of their options. I agree that children should be raised to strive for the best, but if a child feels the best for him is a yak rustler, well, he should be allowed to be a yak rustler. He may find out that being a doctor is what he really wants, but sometimes it takes being a yak rustler to find that out. We as parents are supposed to arm our children with the knowledge it takes for them to make the best decisions possible for them, not for what we want them to be. Lord knows I want my daughter to rule the world, but she is not any less if she decides a career in artificial rabbit ensemination is what she wants.

 

[cpj]

Re: The O'Reily Factor show

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