Sons Cigar Boat Goes Down

[r.j.dawg]

Re: Sons Cigar Boat Goes Down

I’m glad to hear there were no injuries. Here in Ontario, as in some other jurisdictions, there is no requirement to have insurance on a boat. BUT, if the vessel is financed and not insured, in this instance you have just compounded your problems.

 

[lncoop]

Re: Sons Cigar Boat Goes Down

As for insurance requirements, I bet the states that require it, only require liability

Right. That's the case here. Any boater with a fifty horse or larger must maintain liability coverage. I think it should be mandatory everywhere. If one chooses not to maintain full coverage that's certainly his prerogative, but I'd hate to think someone could sink my boat or injure my family and not be able to meet the resulting obligations. I doubt most peoples' pockets are that deep. I know mine aren't.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: Sons Cigar Boat Goes Down

Wisconsin has mandatory insurance. plus it helps in cases like this.

Glad everyone is ok.

depending on the beach, he may be able to back a trailer down it and winch it out with proper permission. however if it sits too long, it will be toast. there are many salvage companies on the great lakes.

If the anchor ropes broke, they were either severely neglected, or not the right size for the load. now if they broke loose, could be not enough scope to the rode. in 5-7', would want a 10:1 scope.

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Sons Cigar Boat Goes Down

Right. That's the case here. Any boater with a fifty horse or larger must maintain liability coverage. I think it should be mandatory everywhere. If one chooses not to maintain full coverage that's certainly his prerogative, but I'd hate to think someone could sink my boat or injure my family and not be able to meet the resulting obligations. I doubt most peoples' pockets are that deep. I know mine aren't.

Well, it's still a matter of numbers. I would suspect that the number of incidents which involve more than one vessel on inland lakes (great lakes notwithstanding) is probably pretty inconsequential. Requiring every boater in the US to carry insurance for what likely amounts to a 1 in a few thousand chance that they would be involved in an accident with another boat/structure is probably overkill versus just allowing the courts to deal with it through the normal process. I've been boating for a few decades, and have seen some reckless behavior, but I've never seen (and rarely hear about) an instance where anything other than full-coverage would have provided any refuge for the boat owner. The liability requirement doesn't help the owner in most cases, so making it a requirement only taxes the average boater. Again, the premiums for most are pretty small, but it would likely dissuade a lot of weekend boaters (and their sales dollars to local businesses) if they had to maintain insurance on it.

It's an interesting subject as it's one of the few forms of personal transportation that doesn't require insurance coverage universally, aircraft are another similar example.

 

[lncoop]

Re: Sons Cigar Boat Goes Down

Well, it's still a matter of numbers. I would suspect that the number of incidents which involve more than one vessel on inland lakes (great lakes notwithstanding) is probably pretty inconsequential. Requiring every boater in the US to carry insurance for what likely amounts to a 1 in a few thousand chance that they would be involved in an accident with another boat/structure is probably overkill versus just allowing the courts to deal with it through the normal process. I've been boating for a few decades, and have seen some reckless behavior, but I've never seen (and rarely hear about) an instance where anything other than full-coverage would have provided any refuge for the boat owner. The liability requirement doesn't help the owner in most cases, so making it a requirement only taxes the average boater. Again, the premiums for most are pretty small, but it would likely dissuade a lot of weekend boaters (and their sales dollars to local businesses) if they had to maintain insurance on it.

It's an interesting subject as it's one of the few forms of personal transportation that doesn't require insurance coverage universally, aircraft are another similar example.

Most of what you're saying is certainly true, but consider this. What happens if an uninsured motorist with no significant assets causes an accident? Can he be cited? Sure. Car impounded? Sure. Sued? You bet, but to what end? If he has nothing to begin with the victim only stands to lose even more money. Will the victim's unsinsured motorist coverage kick in? Sure, if they have it, but that will only go so far and will likely result in an accident surcharge (AKA premium increase). This is why liability insurance is required for all motorists. Now, replace motorist with boater. You're absolutely right that it's a numbers game, and the given scenario is statistically unlikely on the water, but it does happen, and its rarity is cold comfort to the boater who's out his boat or worse because the at fault party in an accident didn't have any insurance or assets to pursue. Overkill? Maybe, but for a couple bucks a day I can't really think of a valid reason not to have it. JMO.

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Sons Cigar Boat Goes Down

Most of what you're saying is certainly true, but consider this. What happens if an uninsured motorist with no significant assets causes an accident? Can he be cited? Sure. Car impounded? Sure. Sued? You bet, but to what end? If he has nothing to begin with the victim only stands to lose even more money. Will the victim's unsinsured motorist coverage kick in? Sure, if they have it, but that will only go so far and will likely result in an accident surcharge (AKA premium increase). This is why liability insurance is required for all motorists. Now, replace motorist with boater. You're absolutely right that it's a numbers game, and the given scenario is statistically unlikely on the water, but it does happen, and its rarity is cold comfort to the boater who's out his boat or worse because the at fault party in an accident didn't have any insurance or assets to pursue. Overkill? Maybe, but for a couple bucks a day I can't really think of a valid reason not to have it. JMO.

Again, I don't disagree, but the numbers game is the key factor. You are infinitely more likely to get into an accident on land, so while it may be easy to replace "motorist" with "boater" grammatically, the statistics don't allow such an easy swap. I'm not advocating one over the other necessarily, just that the ability to sue someone in order to reclaim your money is likely sufficient for most people's claims. It is cold comfort for the few boaters who have been affected by those uninsured with no assets, but on the flip side, it serves the majority by not lining the pockets of insurance companies who will rarely have to pay out on a claim. It's an interesting topic, to say the least.

 

[jigngrub]

Re: Sons Cigar Boat Goes Down

I worked with someone a long time ago who lost a boat in Lake Erie, without insurance. couldn't afford the salvage, got billed for the rescue service, then had to pay a few EPA fines for pollution and releasing petroleum or something like that.
I don't remember how much they were but I know he hasn't owned a boat since that day.

Sorry for his misfortune, and glad everyone was O.K.

The EPA isn't playing around these days, they work days, nights, weekends, and holidays to issue fines and citations.

Twin engines means double the fuel and oil and double the fine... and the fine is a daily fine for every day the boat sits under the water.

This isn't just for boats either, drive your car, truck, ATV, or snowmobile out on the ice and have it fall through and it's the same thing.

 

[90stingray]

Re: Sons Cigar Boat Goes Down

I'll be the first to say it, this thread needs pics.

Nope. I beat you to it by 2 minutes. But for sure, we need pics to figure out what is going on a little more.

 

[lncoop]

Re: Sons Cigar Boat Goes Down

It's an interesting topic, to say the least.

That it is. I'd better leave it alone though since I've already hijacked the thread enough.:redface:

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Sons Cigar Boat Goes Down

Most of what you're saying is certainly true, but consider this. What happens if an uninsured motorist with no significant assets causes an accident? ... Will the victim's unsinsured motorist coverage kick in? Sure, if they have it, but that will only go so far and will likely result in an accident surcharge (AKA premium increase). This is why liability insurance is required for all motorists. ...for a couple bucks a day I can't really think of a valid reason not to have it. JMO.

you frame the problem and a simple solution in your argument.

First, if you are a responsible boater--and we all are here--you buy uninsured boater coverage just like you do for your car. You can't complain about how much it covers b/c you pick the amount. You also get underinsured boater coverage, again in the amount you choose. So for your "couple bucks a day" you are covered. No valid reason not to get it; I'd call it irresponsible not to have it. (Really, your medical coverage gives you the protection, since injury is what you are covering more than your boat itself).

Since the collision with an uninsured boat is a rare event, premiums are low. Many states' insurance laws prohibit your insurance company from raising your rates for a claim that is not your fault, so that "accident surcharge" is not going to happen. Or if there might be a surcharge, go back to the long shot that it will happen--it's worth it to cover the risk, get coverage, and take a long-shot chance of a rate increase.

Watch out for cheap insurance. They claim to give you $$$ coverage for less than the competition, but they do it by reducing the peripheral coverages, or by jacking your rates in year 2. being under insured is your fault alone.

The alternative to getting your own uninsured boater coverage? Mandatory coverage for all boaters: that is not a solution you can risk your family for. It simply doesn'ty matter what the law is. Irresponsible boaters won't get it (you know, the ones who don't read iBoats forums and who act crazy and who powerload and who block the ramps) and responsible boaters may let it lapse accidentally. No one checks each boater at the boat ramp any more than they check each car at the highway ramp. So law or no law, it is up to you to protect yourself from the stupidity, or worse, of others. Just like you do with cars. Problem solved.

Now, about that soggy cigar....

 

[lncoop]

Re: Sons Cigar Boat Goes Down

you frame the problem and a simple solution in your argument.

First, if you are a responsible boater--and we all are here--you buy uninsured boater coverage just like you do for your car. You can't complain about how much it covers b/c you pick the amount. You also get underinsured boater coverage, again in the amount you choose. So for your "couple bucks a day" you are covered. No valid reason not to get it; I'd call it irresponsible not to have it. (Really, your medical coverage gives you the protection, since injury is what you are covering more than your boat itself).

Since the collision with an uninsured boat is a rare event, premiums are low. Many states' insurance laws prohibit your insurance company from raising your rates for a claim that is not your fault, so that "accident surcharge" is not going to happen. Or if there might be a surcharge, go back to the long shot that it will happen--it's worth it to cover the risk, get coverage, and take a long-shot chance of a rate increase.

Watch out for cheap insurance. They claim to give you $$$ coverage for less than the competition, but they do it by reducing the peripheral coverages, or by jacking your rates in year 2. being under insured is your fault alone.

The alternative to getting your own uninsured boater coverage? Mandatory coverage for all boaters: that is not a solution you can risk your family for. It simply doesn'ty matter what the law is. Irresponsible boaters won't get it (you know, the ones who don't read iBoats forums and who act crazy and who powerload and who block the ramps) and responsible boaters may let it lapse accidentally. No one checks each boater at the boat ramp any more than they check each car at the highway ramp. So law or no law, it is up to you to protect yourself from the stupidity, or worse, of others. Just like you do with cars. Problem solved.

Now, about that soggy cigar....

I'm confuzzed. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? 'Cause I very possibly have the most overinsured boat in Arkansas.

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Sons Cigar Boat Goes Down

I'm confuzzed. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? 'Cause I very possibly have the most overinsured boat in Arkansas.

He was agreeing that he believes all boaters should have it. Again, I think this is an issue that is really circumstantial. Normally when I am boating, I am not within 100yds of another vessel or structure except when docking/at the ramp. In those situations, I'll take my chances that I won't do any damage to anything, and that I can generally avoid being damaged by someone else. I am on the water maybe a 14 days a year. Circumstances change when you boat in a congested area, moor your boat on the water, or are around a lot of expensive things. Remember, if insurance was mandatory for every boater, that means g'pa in his 14' tinny with a 9.9HP motor on the back is having to insure himself when fishing on a lake with no one else on the water. It's an activity that has a lot of different situations making it difficult to apply a one-size fits all mandate.

 

[lncoop]

Re: Sons Cigar Boat Goes Down

He was agreeing that he believes all boaters should have it. Again, I think this is an issue that is really circumstantial. Normally when I am boating, I am not within 100yds of another vessel or structure except when docking/at the ramp. In those situations, I'll take my chances that I won't do any damage to anything, and that I can generally avoid being damaged by someone else. I am on the water maybe a 14 days a year. Circumstances change when you boat in a congested area, moor your boat on the water, or are around a lot of expensive things. Remember, if insurance was mandatory for every boater, that means g'pa in his 14' tinny with a 9.9HP motor on the back is having to insure himself when fishing on a lake with no one else on the water. It's an activity that has a lot of different situations making it difficult to apply a one-size fits all mandate.

Oh, I didn't mean every boater should be insured, though in retrospect I think that is what I said. I completely agree that it's not always necessary, as in your example of a small tinnie. I believe Arkansas has a good approach with the horsepower threshold.

 

[Steve Mahler]

Re: Sons Cigar Boat Goes Down

I live on a big lake, a boat like this goes down practically every week during high season. EPA usually doesnt levy a fine (NY state) if efforts are made within 24 hours to get the boat up and out. Usually minimal fuel leak if nothing is broken in fuel system.

As others have said, you need a combination of pumps and air bladders of some kind. We have a gas wash pump on our local fire boat, will drain a 20 foot boat in a few minutes it seems.

 

[oops!]

Re: Sons Cigar Boat Goes Down

i have re floated boats like this in my lake.....

big inner tubs.......in the bow.....and in the motor cage.

you will need a relitively calm day.

inflate the tubes......she will come to the surface....then strap inner tubes UNDER THE HULL... you want to get the gun whales above the surface.

start pumping as soon as the gunwhales touch the surface
pump while inflating the under hull inner tubes.

as soon as the gunwhales are above the surface and waves.....you have it beat..

keep pumping till float. then tow it to the dock and load.

if its fresh water......the boat can be fixed easily.....you have to pickel the motors asap.
if you have ecm's, chances are they must be replaced.....but fresh water is better than salt. so you might open them up and try and dry them.

there are several systems that will need to be replaced....like the fire superssion sensor....the fuel sniffer...
but most of the systems are easily dried and re used.

 

[roger56]

Re: Sons Cigar Boat Goes Down

Wish I had some pics for you The boat is an older big twin Inboard. I have not heard from my son today Hoping he gets this resolved. I hope he learned a very expensive lesson. The Boat Is in 4-5 feet of water on bottom in sand. He does have ability to maybe get the trailor backed down to the boat. I am not sure the winch on the trailor could pull it out with out breaking something. If i am able to get some Pics i will post them. Thanks guys for the advice I will pass it along. I never though I would see this Many posts on a sunken Boat post.

 

[salty87]

Re: Sons Cigar Boat Goes Down

it sounds like wishful thinking to me that someone is going to get enough inner tubes under a twin engine boat to raise it. now we hear it's on the bottom, ain't gonna happen by a novice with recreational equipment. winching it up the beach sounds like a formula for failure too. add a potential injury to the mix from less than adequate equipment or lack of experience...starting to sound like a benny hill skit. no offense to the poster as you're family but kenny said it best...you got to know when to fold em.

i'm amazed the authorities haven't already been alerted and taken over the scene.

i'm most disappointed in the lack of pics. was this an island maybe? where can you go nowadays where there aren't 100 cell phone cameras?

 

[5150abf]

Re: Sons Cigar Boat Goes Down

Sorry to hear about your sons loss, it is so much easier when you can blame someone else.

No insurance or liceance/permit required in Indiana, don't even think about getting in a car without it but so far they have left the boats alone.

I have a rider on my house insurance(100K I think) that constitutes liabilty but that is all, hard to insure a 1980 tinny but I am big on the PLPD.

 

[roger56]

Re: Sons Cigar Boat Goes Down

All of the passengers Phones went down with the boat Except for One That was in a Plastic Bag (only smart thing that was done that day.This happen on a public beach. As far as the irish Go worked the stadium for12 years Not the same now as it was back then. My father in law worked as an usher for 60 years before retiring.

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Sons Cigar Boat Goes Down

I'm confuzzed. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? 'Cause I very possibly have the most overinsured boat in Arkansas.

My take:
1. every boater should have liability insurance with medical coverage. "should" means "ought to" but does not mean "required by law".

2. This includes the 14' tinnie with the 9.9: no problem because it's already covered by his homeowner's/renters liability.

3. Boats that are too large (by length or motor size) to be covered by H/O should have a liability insurance policy

4. But because many boaters won't have valid insurance, every boater should protect himself with his own policy. i really don't care about whether you cover your own boat from another damaging it. But you should cover your family from medical expenses from injury. Remember, your own medical insurance will pay for your medical bills if someone hits you. You can also get med pay as part of yuor coverage, and uninsured/underinsured boater, etc. to cover you and your passengers.

5. Liability coverage should include environmental clean-up. Liability includes property damage (you hit someone's boat) and you would be well advised, if your boat has value, to get "marine" aka comprehensive (he hits your boat, you have a fire, etc.)
6. I do not think a law requiring insurance will solve the uninsured problem--but it may help.

Why do I care, if I have my own policy, what someone else has? I don't want my tax dollars paying the medical, SAR, salvage and clean-up costs caused by a guy who was too irresponsible to get insurance. I don't want my own medical costs/insurance going up to cover the uninsured's medical costs.

Incoop, you are likely covered, but you were wondering what if you get hit by an uninsured/underinsured boater as if you weren't. As long as you have coverage for it, you are fine,and your rates should not increase if you file a claim.