Sob Story

[Jim Graham]

I bought a 1988 Carver 21 aft cabin. 260 merc with a MR Drive. Shortly after that I broke an exhaust valve. When I tore the engine down I found 30 over pistons so I decided to replace the motor. I bought a Crusader Power Pac. 300Hp. chev 350. Right away I had problems injesting water. To make a long story short. I was told my exhaust was too low but after 6 new starters, 3 flywheel ring gears, 4in. risor extensions and a lot of my labor pulling the engine and drive several times This engine will not work on my boat! I am a mechanic by trade so I'm not a rookie at all
and I have had and worked on boats all of my life. sometimes it is best to let the marine people deal with a problem like mine. I had no idea at all that the increased valve overlap on the new 350 would suck in water. My wife wants me to sell it. I told her fine I can proubly get 1 thousand. Thats 500 each. I now have over 30,000 invested. My only hope is to get my old 350 back and start again. Thought all would get a kick out of my story!
Slim Jim

 

[MikDee]

Re: Sob Story

Wow! Sorry to hear that Jim, are you sure your exhaust flappers are there, & working? this could be the cause of your water ingestion, unless you have bypassed this with thru-hull exhaust.

 

[Capt Ken]

Re: Sob Story

Before I got halfway thru your story I knew what your problem was. I see this all the time with the high performance engines. Those cams with too much valve overlap will suck water back into the cylinders all the time. Flappers won't help since its sucking the exhaust water that is exiting the risers back into the exhaust. Just a good ole standard 5.7 with a good ole standard marine cam will do just fine.

 

[Don S]

Re: Sob Story

Yes, those engines do have valve overlap and they do suck water back into the cylinders (at idle), but the Crusader is a marine engine, and should have a marine cam in it, and it should last.
But there is a lot of information lacking in that sob story to make any determination of why there was water in the cylinders.
Did it have NEW manifolds and risers? Or were old and possibly defective manifolds installed?
When did this water get in the cylinders to cause a hydrolock. During launching or retrival on a trailer? Just sitting at a dock? While running?
My bet is, even with putting an old style engine back in that the same thing will happen with it.
Why did the first engine loose a valve?

 

[mcleaves]

Re: Sob Story

My bet is, even with putting an old style engine back in that the same thing will happen with it.
Why did the first engine loose a valve?

I suspect Don is onto this one.. The problem seems to be following the boat, not the engine. Maybe it's exacerbated by the high performance engine maybe, but it was there before he swapped them.

M

 

[Bondo]

Re: Sob Story

But there is a lot of information lacking in that sob story to make any determination of why there was water in the cylinders.
When did this water get in the cylinders to cause a hydrolock. During launching or retrival on a trailer? Just sitting at a dock? While running?

Ayuh,........ Too many Questions without Answers to come up with The Answer.......

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: Sob Story

Glad you pointed it out Don. This sounds like a "bash" Crusader thread to me. It seems very unlikely that they would sell an engine that sucked in water all the time. Geez, it's not their first day! Some MAJOR piece of this story is missing.

 

[Don S]

Re: Sob Story

There is probably a LOT of the pieces missing. Hopefully Jim will come back and answer a few questions.
IF, he doesn't get scared off by people posting those big fancy ten dollar words like exacerbated.
Being a moderator, guess I ought to see if that guy needs banned for saying that

 

[mcleaves]

Re: Sob Story

There is probably a LOT of the pieces missing. Hopefully Jim will come back and answer a few questions.
IF, he doesn't get scared off by people posting those big fancy ten dollar words like exacerbated.
Being a moderator, guess I ought to see if that guy needs banned for saying that

Hey, it only cost 9.99, so I am under the limit. I checked!

M

 

[Coors]

Re: Sob Story

Is that an actual word, or are we being talked down to?
And how can a marine engine have valve over-lap, like my street rod?
Fishy.

 

[mcleaves]

Re: Sob Story

Is that an actual word, or are we being talked down to?
And how can a marine engine have valve over-lap, like my street rod?
Fishy.

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?search=exacerbates

 

[Coors]

Re: Sob Story

lol, it ain't in my American Heritage dictionary.

 

[Don S]

Re: Sob Story

And how can a marine engine have valve over-lap, like my street rod?
Fishy.

When the new Vortec engines came out, along came the valve overlap, and it is right on the verge of being a problem. The V6 engines have more problems than the V8's.
Either Merc had a service bulletin on it, or it was from Tech support, but they suggested after a long period of running the engine at idle speed, that you speed the engine up to 1200 to 1500 rpm to blow the moisture out before shutting down.
Occasionally, one would get enought moisture into the cylinders to cause it to missfire, but that didn't happen usually.
Merc also recommended propping the engine to the high side of the range as close as possible.

 

[Jim Graham]

Re: Sob Story

Well now I didn't think I would get as much reaction as I did. Now to answer the questions. I bought the boat used so I.m not sure what happened to the exhaust valve but a small chunk came off the valve.I had a little extra money so I went with a new Crusader. Allong with it I also replaced the bullhorn with a new Mercruser and I went with new Sierra Manifolds and risers. A new dampner.
Right away I had problems. I would go fishing for a couple of hours, then move and maybe sit overnight. When I tried to start It would be hydrolocked. I would break a starter nose of damage the drive. I would be towed.
I went looking for the problem but I didn't find anything.
Even pulling the heads and have them Mag checked and pressure tested. All checked good. I would go out again and the same thing happened so I was told on another sight to go for the flappers. I installed the Quicksilver 807166A3 water shutter assembly from Merc. In the mean tiome a couple more starters and a flywheel ring gear.
Still the same problem. Then I was told my exhaust was too low. I also researched the merc bulleten on Water injestion. Now when I went out next I noticed sometimes when the engine would not start untill I left off the key and sometimes it would try to run backwards for an instant.By now I'm getting wiser so I have almost my complete Matco rollaway with me and I remove the plugs and water ran out of about 3 cylinders. And when I spin it over a lot of water comes out like the intake was full also. I manage to get it started but It begins running warm.Not real hot but It would go to 190-200 and then cool back down. By the way I have fresh water cooling by Merc.I started checking electrical and trying to figure out the backfire or run backwards. It came with a Mallary Ign and I wired in the resister like the drawing I got from Crusader.By the way in no means am I bashing Crusader. Pleasure craft marine bulds a quality Marine Engine and of corse I got a 2007 Lt. hand bottom mount black. Now a couple more starters and another ring gear which I got from Chev and swetted it on myself. This time I had the motor and drive both off. I replaced the gimble and checked everything I could and put it all back togeather. Last week I went out again. Stopped at a friends to roll some dice for a couple of hours. when I tried to start thjis time I backfired and broke the nose off the starter. I picked up another SR-185913 starter from my parts guy and I was finally able to get it started the next morning but on return to thje ramp my temp went up little b y little and when I arrived when I let off the gas it was smoking and died. Now it sits in my side yard Slim

 

[Don S]

Re: Sob Story

You REALLY need to get the idle down low enough, and the timing set properly so you do not get the dieseling.
You did mention you used Sierra manifolds and risers, and I suspect that may be another part of your problem. Might want to read the thead Bondo posted a few days ago. Here is a link to it.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=233452

 

[JustJason]

Re: Sob Story

yeahp.... pull them apart and check both mating surfaces (with a machine straitedge... not a ruler).
Rule of thumb says if your getting water in more than 1 cylinder it's almost always in the manifolds.. and usually its at the manifold/riser gasket area.

 

[Jim Graham]

Re: Sob Story

I've had the manifolds and risors off a half a dozen times since in installed the motor I have a Snap on straight edge and it checked good. The only thing I changed was I don't run the spacer plate anymore with 2 gaskets just an single gasket.I also installed new 4in riser spacers which is all I can get in there.They come up to My Engine Hatch.I really appreciate the come backs from all of you. Thanks Slim

 

[SuperNova]

Re: Sob Story

I've had the manifolds and risors off a half a dozen times since in installed the motor I have a Snap on straight edge and it checked good.

The best way to check them is to draw a file across them and look for even contact. Everybody is right; the manifolds and risers are the most likely source of water intrusion. Of course, this assumes you installed the exhaust flappers correctly. It would be difficult to do it wrong, but possible. By "fresh water cooling" do you mean "raw water cooling" or "closed cooling system"?
--
Stan

 

[mcleaves]

Re: Sob Story

Lets assume he has verified the mating surfaces are good and has a good seal. He should still make sure he tries to verify through the suggestions here yes, but I've heard of more than one bad cast from Sierra that allowed water in from the jacket itself.

Is this only happening on one side? I know you said you had water in three cyls, but I am not sure WHICH three.

M

 

[Don S]

Re: Sob Story

Along with Mikes question about which cylinders, I would also have to ask if you are even going to try to fix it? Does it still run? Is the engine locked up now and setting with water in the cylinders.
If you are planning on making a large planter our of it, all the suggestions in the world aren't going to help.