sincere debate?

[mellowyellow]

Re: sincere debate?

<br />heck, even Einstein flunked outa school?<br />instead of trying to make all kids the "same",<br />perhaps it's better to let nature takes it's<br />course. nurture all in areas of strength regadless<br />of ability in another subjects...

 

[cvx35]

Re: sincere debate?

I vote that every $100 in taxes deducted from my paycheck should be good for a coupon for 1 case of beer. In 1 year I should be able to open my own bar.

 

[12Footer]

Re: sincere debate?

Ok, I'll sincerely try to keep my political comments out of a political question, but it aint gonna be easy. Lesee here, Education.<br />Kery, I dunno. So far, he hasn't said what he plans to do about education.<br />Bush and his entire family's main concern it would seem is education. If you look-back at his record and that of his bro, dad, mom, ect, it's allways been on the behalf of higher education for all, including illegal immigrants.<br />Economy;<br />Kerry, I dunno. So far, all he has done was complain about the present economy, but I haven't heard any ideas on how to improve it. granted, I try not to pay him any attention.<br />Bush has a deplorable record on the economy. Outside of his tax cut, which was a real shot in the arm, his record resembles that of a liberal tax-n-spend president. Somehow, I have to ignore this rotten record, as the alternative is unthinkable.

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: sincere debate?

cvx35, obvious biz graduate... <br />senior counceler will schedule appt. with BUD.<br /><br />onto economy now:<br />being in IT sales, I know first hand if corp. US<br />is spending or being conservative. MY experience<br />is they are playing it close to the vest and not<br />yet ready to re-invest. why is the question...<br />dow way below 10K, nasdaq below 2K.<br />confused,<br />M.Y.

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: sincere debate?

no worries 12'er, the question is not who will<br />do what, but what exactly would u do brother...

 

[newhewes]

Re: sincere debate?

What bothers me so much is that everyone is an expert on the field of education yet few understand the postition that educators are in. If teachers could teach students at their ability level it would be great but remember that we have children from everywhere and with all kinds of individual problems. Consider a class with 20 students, which is fairly small, and in this class you may have 2 students who qualify for special education and their individual education program (IEP) states that if they can sit quietly for a given period of time they deserve an "A" in that class. You may have 2-3 others who have a specific disability but do not qualify for special ed. but fall under 504 which requires that we make resonable accommidations, then you may have a few others that may be having problems due to fetal alcohol syndrome, crack babies, or other such problems. Then we have this wonderful thing called Adequate yearly progress (AYP) which was implemented by the government which is based on standardized test result. As an example of how this wonderful program, which is in part to hold schools accountable, 95% of the student body have to take the test, if you don't test the 95% then you do not make AYP. If you have a student who is in the 8th grade, for example, and they have an IQ of 70 the school and parents can decide whether they should take an alternative assessment or be tested at grade level. If they take the alternative assessment they automatically fail to make AYP and if you have 95% of that subgroup failing to make the cutoff again the school fails to make AYP. Don't get me wrong, I am all in favor of acountability but lets make it real. Another situation that we have to deal with is attendence, ask anyone of your school administrators what the state law on attendence is, for the most part, in K-8, we cannot enforce a child to attend school. We have students who miss over 1/4 of the school year and there is nothing that can be done, legally. As for the money, all states are alittle different in funding but here it is based on the number of students in the school. This means that regardless of the costs to maintain the school, heating, electrical, fuel prices, etc. our budget remains the same. We can cut and still not have enough money to run the school and in Montana the state average for teacher wages is one of the lowest in the nation. Just a few thoughts.

 

[kd6nem]

Re: sincere debate?

Dsmith has a valid point. The hoops which have to be jumped through are unreal. Some local schools are just screwed up. But the rest still are caught in the bureaucratic crossfire and not legally able to fix the problems created for them by ivory tower bureaucrats and politicians. They become puppets of conflicting authorities higher up the foodchain. I say fire the bureaucrats and let the principal be the principal. Let the administrators answer for what they do but give them the tools to work with first. Kill most of the red tape and bonehead regulations. Accountability is good, but one size may not fit all- let the rules fit the situation for a change.<br /><br />By the way, the same high standard still apply to schools whose enrollment is 70% spanish speaking at home. These are great people for the most part, and the kids do make great progress whenever they get a bit of encouragement at home. But how are we going to get first or second graders to pass the standardized tests when they just arrived from Mexico? Something the bureaucracy didn't anticipate, obviously. So now we who are in a poor rural area get threatened to have funding cut- we who try to provide services beyond the normal level because of greater need? Doesn't add up. Accountability is very necessary, but leave more local control, please!

 

[kd6nem]

Re: sincere debate?

By the way, big yes on vouchers- remember parents are taxpayers too. Competition is healthy. It becomes a form of accountability, doesn't it? I work in a public school, but wife teaches in private. The kids go with her. Even with her staff discount it hurts financially, but at least they haven't become pawns in the wounded educational system. They are at least a year ahead academically as a result. More in some subjects like math and language. (It helps when the parents have higher expectations and actively participate!)<br /><br />Flat tax- yes. Only fair, should be across the board. <br /><br />The federal gov't needs to downsize and quit making unfunded mandates to burden the states.<br /><br />To those who blame the president for the economy- shame on you. He did not invite 9-11. It takes time to repair anything so massive. There was a recent president from the other party who I remember gloating and proclaiming the economy more healthy than ever- despite most families for the first time having two breadwinners to make ends meet and record amounts of overtime being worked. (people work THAT hard because the economy is really that great? I don't think so!) This was not much before 9-11. Isn't it as much a change in perspective as in dollars and cents? My point is the economy is complex, usually slow responding (unless panic strikes), and given all the smoke and mirrors that inevitably gets used by each administration (and by the pundits), it can be silly to so quickly point a finger. I don't think it is nearly as big a difference as is reported, honestly. It can take years to see the bigger picture. My thinking is President Bush did do the right thing given the incredibly difficult circumstances. I wouldn't mind seeing some more fat trimmed from the budget, but it will need to be surgically removed from the sacred cow and pork barrel items only. We need to put more back into roads and things MOST people need. There is absolutely no excuse for deficit spending.

 

[12Footer]

Re: sincere debate?

Amen, BP! And vouchers are werking in Florida, regardless of what anyone (including NBC) tells you. There is a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth, because looser schools loose, while winner schools win, and it returns some semblance of power back to the student/parent as to thier individual education.....No more ability to indoctrinate them!! (waaaa. boohoo)

 

[aspeck]

Re: sincere debate?

dsmith, I agree with you that it is not black and white. But why isn't it? Because of over government intrusion and bureaucracy. I believe that most of the teachers we have in the system today are good teachers, maybe even execllent teachers. But because they are forced to deal with so many social issues (give a kid an "A" because he can sit still, who cares about the material taught. At least he will feel good), instead of teaching the basics of English, math, and science.<br /><br />What MY is proposing (correct me if I am wrong), but if a kid excells in your class, he goes on to the next. If he doesn't, he repeats the class, not the whole school year. Eventually the students will "arrive" at the level of learning they can handle and the teacher will have an easier time because most of the kids in the class are on the same level. However, the faster kids are allowed to move on and not be held back.<br /><br />Radical change? Yes. Hard to accomplish? Yes. Impossible? No.

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: sincere debate?

A different tax method only changes the way the tax is collected, not the amount. I used to like the idea of a flat tax, till I realized that the governement will still somehow collect the same amount of tax, so what is the reason to change. A tax on the rich, middle class or poor is still just a tax on the people. Taxes on the rich, means they have less money to buy toys, and if you work ina toy factory, there goes your job.<br /><br />The only way to reduce taxes, is to reduce spending, and their isnt a poltician alive that will cut his own throat.<br /><br />Solution, there isnt one unless we take up arms and force these idiots to quit spending our money.<br /><br />Economy is doing fine, we are re-adjusting to manufacturing jobs going overseas, but service jobs taking their place. It will take a while, but it will all balance out. By the time it does, the thirld world countries will have higher economies and higher pay and higher shipping rates, and that will make manuafacturing in the USA look much better. Plus when these other countries economies boom, who will supply them with all thier goodies? Western countries, thats who.<br /><br />As for education, I really dont see any problems. The problems are with the parents letting the kids run wild and ignore school. If the kids were halfway encouraged about school, they would do fine in it. Many parents see school as a babysitting service.<br /><br />I do like the idea of privitizing all schools. Let the school sell its self, and you pay for it with vouchers. This would put parents in the drivers seat and make them care about it more. This would also end the beuocracy, red tape, and church/state issues.<br /><br />Ken

 

[newhewes]

Re: sincere debate?

Aspeck, There are so many issues in education that it is hard to isolate one over the other and in fact they seem to just overlap with each other. I speak only about what I observe as a teacher and administrator in the state of Montana, but some of issues are not unique to other states. Considering the fact that our state has less than 1 million people and our rural schools can have 3-4 children some of the problems we see are maybe unique. It is not just the government interference that is the problem, I feel that it is our attitude as a society in general. Of course we have some excellent teachers, but then as everyone knows we also have some real "sicko's" that prey on children and we have others who are in the profession for all the wrong reasons. One of the problems, which will lead to other issues, is that because, maybe due to the lack of trust in our system, is that a number of folks do not support our educational system. I can remember we I was in school, if you got in trouble at school then you got into more trouble at home, except in my case--I got into trouble in school, at school by my dad (also a teacher) and then again at home, you would think I would have learned, anyway, today in a number of instances the first and only blame is on the teacher and the school. Additionally, it seems that we see a lot of parents who get mad at a teacher, for whatever reason, to hard, not hard enough, etc. they pull their child and go to a different school. When the same thing happens in that school they end up homeschooling. This leads to another issue which goes is that, and I am not saying homeschooling is bad, there is no accountability for homeschools. In some cases we have seen parents pull their child out of school, homeschool them, refuse all services offered by the school and not do anything with their child. The child comes back into school a couple of years later at the same level at which they left, and then we have one year to bring them up to grade level or we don't meet AYP. I could go on, but will stop for now. Thanks for listening.

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: sincere debate?

sorry, DS, but I ain't eatin it...<br />"There are so many issues in education that it is hard to isolate one over the other and in fact they seem to just overlap"<br />bullpies!<br />only thing that counts in end is production!<br />what percentage of yur students have the basic<br />skills required? if it ain't 100%, u should get<br />a job in sales maybe?

 

[aspeck]

Re: sincere debate?

dsmith, see point #2 under Education in my first post. You are preaching to the choir on that one. That is the parent and students responsibility. But as a teacher, you take responsibility for what you CAN do. If you blame others for the failure, then you are no better than the parents and students you mention.<br /><br />I am on your side, so I hope this doesn't seem like I am lashing out at you, just trying to make a point. Parents blame teachers, teachers blame parents, and everyone can be happy with a mediocre system because it isn't their fault.<br /><br />And yes, I do take an active part in the schools system, and I don't have any kids in it at this moment. When the youngest gets of age, am thinking of homeschooling, or a "Virtual Charter School." <br /><br />I try to do my part and I take responisbility for what I do.

 

[newhewes]

Re: sincere debate?

I do appreciate the large percentage of people who do support education and under no circumstances am I trying to make excuses for anyone or anything but I also know that there is a large percentage of teachers who are trying to do what they believe they should be doing and what they can do because of regulations and limitations put on them because of beliefs about what should be. As for what percent of our students have the basic skills, our school has meet AYP and we are always looking at doing better but what in this world is at 100%? Are you trying to say that every child in every classroom can achieve at 100% proficiency? If so maybe you should spend some time in a school to see just what is going on. In addition, if we do reach 100% proficiency is that good enough or should we raise the standards like a standardized test so that only 50% achieve, the so-called bell curve? I don't take offense for what I believe or for what I do, I just feel that before people start riding their high horse they maybe should spend some time in a school system (public) and see what we are dealing with. As for private schools verses public school if the public school dealt only with the students who wanted to learn and parents who wanted their children to learn and had the ability to kick out or ask them to leave if they were being disruptive to the system it would be a different story. I strongly believe that we need to make changes in the system and there is not anyone thing or person to blame but again go back to the attendance issue. If you can't get a child to come to school how can you teach them the basics?

 

[Parrott_head]

Re: sincere debate?

Originally posted by Parrott_head:<br /> I would enjoy exchanging thoughts and philosophies about economics. Would greatly enjoy this if it can be done with rancor or personal attack. <br /><br /><br />Care to join me?<br /><br />Sincerely,<br />Parrott_head

I can think of no endeavor by mankind that has a 100% success rate.<br /><br />The opinions and insights of dssmith84 and Bearcat Powered have made me think anew some of my own opinions. This is the purpose of debate.<br />Have been opposed to school vouchers but am now looking the matter over again.<br /><br />I also live in a part of the great nation that has a large Hispanic population and I had not given one bit of thought about how that would effect the testing outcome.<br /><br />I am more of a person envolved with economics then academics but both subjects grab my interest.

 

[BinLurkin]

Re: sincere debate?

Yeah, lets change it. What did the founding fathers know. Idiots! I can't hard'ly make a living here with my 3 boats, motorhome, 2001 pickup truck, oldsmobile car & Passport SUV. Geeses, how much worse can it be? Guess I could be a Republican? That would do it. I better ask George Bush for some help? You think? You hippocrite Republicans would, wouldn't you? That's a rhetoricle question, I used to be one of you.

 

[kd6nem]

Re: sincere debate?

Bin Lurkin, I'm curious about something. Just how much of the founding father's writings have you read recently?<br /><br />For the life of me I don't know how you say what you do if you had read much from the founding fathers and give them any credit at all. And if you don't agree with them, then pretty amazing results they got for being so silly as to be so forward thinking as they were, while so dedicated to absolute values! <br /><br />By the way, this was a civilized discussion which had some substance to it. Not much in the way of heavy opposition, so perhaps you have a point with some substance? We welcome honest debate and real dialogue. But there is no need to throw out mere insults. I disagree with your values, but I will not call you names as you have done.

 

[aspeck]

Re: sincere debate?

BL, where did that come from, and why? Seems like a civil discussion going on here, no mention of right or left, republican or democrat. Just a bunch of guys discussing problems and possible solutions. Haven't heard anyone say to throw more money at it. So why the hate and flaming from you? This is not really called for in this debate. Thank-you.

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: sincere debate?

So why the hate and flaming from you?

He must work for the state. Probably the Department of Motor Vehicles. <br /><br />The flat tax scares me. <br />Anything taken from my paycheck is a slap in the face to me.<br />A sales/consumption tax would work better. The poor guy doesn't buy as much so he doesn't pay as much.<br />Give the businesses a cut for the burden of collecting.<br /><br />The tax payers would save a bundle doing away with the IRS.<br /><br /> Oh!, and by the way! Make government employees and elected officials use the same SSI that the citizens use. No more special government employee pensions for them.