President Bush and the illegal aliens

[Homerr]

Re: President Bush and the illegal aliens

Hmmm...<br /><br />"We're from the Government, and we're here to help"<br /><br />Now where have I heard that before?<br /><br />H.

 

[snapperbait]

Re: President Bush and the illegal aliens

John Q. Taxpayer is going to pay for them one way or the other... <br /><br /> Ok, off into the future...(enter the harp music ) <br /> The now "documented worker" is paying income tax, social security, and medicare.. Thats all fine and dandy, except for the fact that the wage for the now "documented worker" is'nt likely to go up, thus the taxes they will be paying, which won't amount to much in the first place, will just create more of a burdin on the now "documented worker" and his/her family.. Their still going to be in the same situation, if not worse.. Still with the medicare/medicade, welfare, and whatever other services that you and I pay for.. <br /><br />I seriously doubt that Bush's plan to pardon will create enough revenue from the new tax base he proposes to create to actually pay for the plan itself.. Big waste of time in my opinion..<br /><br />Bush plan, no plan, maintain the status quoe, deport em', whatever... We're still going to pay.. Get used to it..

 

[rodbolt]

Re: President Bush and the illegal aliens

hello<br /> wow what a topic. like I said I am glad I dont have to make a decision like this. I understand why they come. I also understand why the various administrations dont do much one way or the other through the years. I will never understand the left coast even though I was high schooled in Vallejo and san marin high. but my feeling is that if your here and have a child the child is a us citizen. period. I fear the immigration patrol is going to be like our so called war on drugs. it will turn into a never ending industry where a complete economy is grown that revolves around INS patrols. In the area I live in its all but impossible to go into a store and not be waited on by a russian,peruvian,columbian or middle european. problem is its all minimum wage and they have to live 8 to a house to pay the rent. I wish I was 18 again, I had all the ansewers then and I knew most the questions. its going to get tough soon as the middle class slowly sinks. <br /> good luck and keep posting and remember if its a GM merc or volvo or marine power all nice solid chevy motors that now say Hechen En Mexico cast in the heads and blocks.<br /> not tonawanda

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: President Bush and the illegal aliens

I fear the immigration patrol is going to be like our so called war on drugs.

The key difference is demand. Too many people want the drugs but, polls show the vast majority of Americans do not want illegal immigration. <br /><br />Besides cheap labor w/o any power (wage slaves) this is about being elected. **** Morris, former Clinton adviser, did a study that showed, due to explosive demographic growth, Latino American support is critical to all future elections. If I can find the study I will post it.<br /><br />Many Latinos are conservative - they are social conservative Catholics (real Catholics - not like the Northeast variety) and this is another attempt by the Republicans to win their support. If the Republicans are successful, they could keeps the Dems out of power for decades.

 

[JB]

Re: President Bush and the illegal aliens

Hmmm.<br /><br />I said the Illegal Aliens and Undocumented Workers are the same. Well, not quite. <br /><br />Undocumented Workers have jobs. For the most part they are jobs that "aren't good enough" for most American workers. They keep companies in the US and they keep prices of many commodities down.<br /><br />If we were capable of keeping them out, we would have. We try. If we knew how to "round them all up and send them home" we would have already done it. We try. Our Constitution forbids measures that might work better, and I, for one, want the freedom from a police state that the Constitution guarantees.<br /><br />We don't know who they are, but we do know that there are 10-11 million of them. That is more than the population of the entire United States in 1830. Their earning and spending represent about 20 billion first tier dollars to our "underground" economy annually.<br /><br />I don't think the President's proposal covers anyone except a person with a job, and it simply makes him or her a legal guest worker who may come (or stay) here to work for 3 years. I don't think it covers families.<br /><br />Obviously, if we know who he/she is and how long he/she has been here we have at least a chance to send him/her home at the end of the "tour of duty". If we don't know who, where or how long, our I&N people are helpless and the problem continues out of control.<br /><br />Rewarding illegal behavior? I guess you could see it that way. On the other hand you could look at the other side of the coin and call it rewarding hard working, productive members of our economy.<br /><br />Perhaps the two ways of looking at it cancel each other.<br /><br />We Texans have about double the experience with G.W. as the rest of the country. He was the first Governor re-elected by this state since...heck, maybe Sam Houston. We expect him to be the first President named George Bush to be re-elected ever.

 

[JGREGORY]

Re: President Bush and the illegal aliens

Well said JB agree 100%

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: President Bush and the illegal aliens

Undocumented Workers have jobs. For the most part they are jobs that "aren't good enough" for most American workers. They keep companies in the US and they keep prices of many commodities down.<br />

Semantics - if you are here illegally you are by definition and illegal alien. If you are here illegally and happen to be working you are both an illegal alien and an undocumented worker.<br /><br />There is no such things as a job that isn't good enough. The problem is exploited people here illegally depress wages and make the jobs less desirable. So citizens at the low end are incentivized no stay home and collect rather than work.<br /><br />

If we were capable of keeping them out, we would have. We try

We are more than capable we are just unwilling. If we wanted to keep people out we could. You backup the border patrol with the National Guard and hammer companies caught hiring illegals and you would see a significant drop in illegal immigration. There is nothing unconstitutional or illegal or inhumane about this approach - it is simple blocking and tackling.<br /><br />You can't say we are doing all we can when I guy like me can come up with a better plan than the government w/o breaking a sweat.<br /><br />This isn't about rewarding hard work. It is about rewarding illegal activity and winning over an ethnic group and the people who exploit them for political gain.

 

[oddjob]

Re: President Bush and the illegal aliens

Well said JB agree 100% <br />

Ditto JB.<br /><br />Sorry Ralph...first time I've disagreed with ya,..he,he

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: President Bush and the illegal aliens

If this policy leads where I think it will, with a flood of new illegals depressing wages across the board coupled with the exporting of all jobs at all levels that can be exported, we are going to spin into a depresion the likes of which this nation has never seen. Mark my words. We will all live to regret this. The only people who will be happy are the people who flood across the boarder, the people who exploit them (for political and economic gain) and the people who simply want more people with a similar ethnicity in America.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: President Bush and the illegal aliens

Let me ask a few questions that may have not been considered.<br /><br />Who is going to pay for the health care for these people? If they are in low end jobs they aren't going to be covered by their employers. So who is going to pay?<br /><br />What happens when the 3 years are up and they have since had children who are American citizens?<br /><br />What happens if they get laid off?<br /><br />What happens if they become incapacitated while here? Do they get to go on Social Security for life?<br /><br />Who is going to pay to educate their children? Are we going to have to bare the added cost of bilingual education?<br /><br />If they are low wage workers don't these costs to society far outweigh any economic benefit gained by them working cheap? This is the US taxpayer subsidizing the jobs of illegal immigrants isn't it?<br /><br />How do they reapply after the 3 years? Do they just simply sneak back across the boarder?<br /><br />Would you leave this country willingly after 3 years to return home to a place you fled in the first place?<br /><br />This is just more selling out and gutting of America.<br /><br />I don't mind subsidizing Americans at the low end of the ladder but I'll be damned if I am going to sit by and do it for non-citizens!<br /><br />Let's not forget, in this country, people at the low end pay almost no taxes. In fact, they get an earned income tax credit which means they get paid tax money to work.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: President Bush and the illegal aliens

An honest politician?<br /><br />Vicente Fox on Fox News Sunday just said his goal is a complete removal of all immigration barriers between the US, Mexico and Canada so people can live and work anywhere they want in the "North American Block."<br /><br />Gee, what a marvelous idea! <br /><br />What kind of leader wants to give up his national sovereignty? I guess he'd rather be a US Governor than a President... No wait... let's think for a minute. Mexico has a 100M people, if they were part of the US, the US would become Mexico. Ah, now I get it. But hey, that's better than paying a little more for our fruits and vegtables and such right?

 

[JB]

Re: President Bush and the illegal aliens

Ralph, all of your complaints are about what is already happening, and has been for years,.<br /><br />The President's proposal does not bring families to the US, only workers. It does not confer citizenship to anyone, or the rights of citizenship. It is not amnesty and it is not pardon. <br /><br />It is a way to bring the presence of non-citizen workers in our country under some semblance of organization and control<br /><br />It will reduce, not increase the things you are so panicky about.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: President Bush and the illegal aliens

JB - care to place a little friendly bet?<br /><br />I bet immigration will skyrocket. (meaning a flood of new people from SA not already here to take advantage of the program)<br /><br />I bet that less than 5% of people will ever be repatriated at the end of the 3 years.<br /><br />I bet the number of infrastructure providers (hospitals, local governments, etc.) that will require bailouts will increase by at least 100%<br /><br />I bet we move closer to Foxs vision than we do away from it.<br /><br />I bet that every thing I warned about comes to fruition in spades.<br /><br />It's time to put an end to this lunacy before it is too late. A tipping point will come when American's can clearly see the end results and leaders will emerge to deal with the issue. Unfortunately it will have to get a lot worse before it gets better. Just like we needed 911 to wake us up to the dangers of terrorism we need a virtual economic colapse to wake up to the dangers of gutting this country.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: President Bush and the illegal aliens

wow<br /> on a pure cost basis we could stock the rio grande with pirrahna's and ask the KKK to take over border patrols for free. <br /> or we could do a Billary Clinton and make our medical as good as the canadians is. or maybe we could tax the rich and trickle it down. but I do agree with ralph and JB.<br /> as bad as I dislike guber-ment intrusion it may be time for another large scale public works like the hoover dam or the tennesee river valley or the tenn-tom waterway peroject. and if everyone had a doctorate who who clean the floors and remove the trash? I dont know, I just fix boats. but I do know that more and more the mexicans and south americans will work and work very hard. we just fired a native white guy here. guy would not quit smoking in the boat dry stack building. could not keep him off the cell phone. guy would not follow simple instructions. I finally told the marina owner that he is YOUR employeebut has has to stay away from me. as I look about the majority of the dock hands we hire are incredibly lazy. they all want to learn but not a single one ever picked up a service manual read a page and asked a single question. I dont mind teaching but the student must wish to learn. most Undocumenteds that I trained were terribly impatient about me teaching so slow. we had quite a few at some of the machine shops I worked at in and around the FT Worth area in the 80's. most were very good workers. never on the phone always on time and never complained when asked to work late or holidays. about the biggest complaint is when we were on 40 hour weeks and they wanted 50 or 60 hour weeks.well enough rant there. I wish I had answers but I dont. all I can say is the mexican policy needs to be revamped as does the cuban policy. myself I would love to work with people that have the brains and balls to convert a 50's chebby pick um up and try to motor it acrossed 90 miles of water. that is balls, bravery and a sincere desire to better oneself. that is what we need not whining sniveling welfare queens that crank out babies. and I am including the men that fathered them as well. we can also create more government jobs. give everyone a GS 7 or 8 job and everyone would be happy.<br />well enough rant. but I wish they had saved that good looking old chebby<br /> good luck and keep posting

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: President Bush and the illegal aliens

let me just try to make one point clear. It is in my economic interest to have unchecked immigration and have as many jobs as possible exported. It keeps prices of everything down. I am not even a little bit concerned for me or my family. I am simply worried for my fellow citizens especially those at the low end of the socio-economic ladder. Those are the people who will suffer.<br /><br />Let me make another point really clear. I am not saying that illegal immigrants are bad people. They are not. They are, in general, good hard working people who know how tough life is outside the US and are willing to work hard because they are motivated. That in no way justifies illegal immigration. It in no way justifies exploiting them and it in no way means it should be tolerated because some Americans are lazy.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: President Bush and the illegal aliens

rodbolt - How long before one of those guys tells your boss he can do your job for half the rate or your boss figures out he can hire 3 good illegals to do your job for less money? It is only a matter of time. You'll train them then you'll be shown the door.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: President Bush and the illegal aliens

Last point. There is a myth that they take jobs Americas don't want. My mother in-law was a matron (janitor) for Gillette (the razor maker) for over 20 years. They paid her a good wage and she even had health benefits and a pension. Gillette in general is a very "good" corp citizen. It has always paid fair wages and benefits and treated employees with respect.<br /><br />Well, they finally caved to the numbers pressure and fired the entire staff and outsourced the services. Now it is done by immigrants for pennies on the dollar. How long before they start making razors in Mexico rather than Boston or replace the existing workers with "guest" workers for pennies on the dollar?

 

[pjc]

Re: President Bush and the illegal aliens

Palph,<br />

rodbolt - How long before one of those guys tells your boss he can do your job for half the rate or your boss figures out he can hire 3 good illegals to do your job for less money? It is only a matter of time. You'll train them then you'll be shown the door.<br />

Organized Labor. We have it here. Labor Unions have attempted to organize the sweat shops in Mexico for example. Additionaly, Nevada for example has a very low undocumented "problem". Why, very strong labor unions that represent those that do the work of hotel maintanance, food workers and so on. Nevada is one state that has and does contol the undocumented worker situation. If only other states would follow suit.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: President Bush and the illegal aliens

Pat - you are right. They could be a big part of the solution when they are already in place. Where are they on this issue though? They seem to be in favor in the hopes that they can reinvigorate themselves by organizing them. They should be standing up for the American workers and getting tough.

 

[Homerr]

Re: President Bush and the illegal aliens

Ralph...<br /><br />You and I need to meet up sometime...<br />I'd like to buy your a beer!<br /><br />You and I think a lot alike.<br /><br />If I ever get my 26ft project done, I officially invite you on board to do some fishing on the Oregon coast!<br /><br />This is.... If we can even fish on the coast without taking out a second mortgage!<br /><br />H.