Please help, need some advice, small deck repair.

[Coyote23]

Re: Please help, need some advice, small deck repair.

sheesh, my thread wasn't supposed to start an argument. Out of 20 replies, about 3 have been helpful, thanks to those....
Ace hardware has a "fiberglass resin with hardener" will that work? I'm guessing this means epoxy. Or do I need to go to a boat store?
Also, how can I tell if the existing deck has epoxy or poly on it now?

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Please help, need some advice, small deck repair.

Sorry about the "Passion". It happens here on the forum sometimes. I'm guilty of it more times than not.
99.9% of all Boats are made from Polyester resin. Not epoxy. The stuff at Ace Hardware is not very good and is expensive compared to what you can get elsewhere. I suppose if you are only going to repair the soft spot you could use the stuff from Ace. It will be Poly resin with Hardener. 1 Gallon should be just about enuf. You'll need 2 yds of CSM Mat and 1 yd of Woven Cloth too. Cut the wood to fit coat it with resin when the resin is almost dry, kinda tacky, put on a layer of CSM and wet it out on the bottom part of the wood. Let it dry over night. Install the patch and use some sanding dust to thicken the resin and then put the thickened resin in the seam around the patched area. then put down Two layers of CSM and finish with a layer of cloth. You should be good for several years.

 

[Coyote23]

Re: Please help, need some advice, small deck repair.

Thanks, so resin + one layer of CSM on the bottom of the plywood, and then resin + 2 layers csm and one layer cloth on top. Questions generated:
1. Do I put resin in between each of the 3 layers above the wood?
2. How much should I overlap the csm and cloth over the existing surrounding floor?

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Please help, need some advice, small deck repair.

^^^ Yup .. ^^^ .

In fact as long as the area does not get any more water then it will last basically for as long as you own the boat.

YD.

PS. I for one am NOT sorry for the 'Passion'. Its a matter of being objective to a simple question in a Thread.

IE question

how to repair a small soft spot in my deck without going into a total rebuild

.. kinda like yours.

Answer: "Dont bother .. your 30 year old boat is probably a hunk of junk."

Albeit quite possible that this statement is true .. its being suggested as fact rather then opinion unsupported by any true measurement or information. Thats just not right IMO .. I think these kind of answers/posts need to be toned down a bit from now on.

I will stop there because I could go on..

Peace.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Please help, need some advice, small deck repair.

Thanks, so resin + one layer of CSM on the bottom of the plywood, and then resin + 2 layers csm and one layer cloth on top. Questions generated:
1. Do I put resin in between each of the 3 layers above the wood?

Yup .. thats what lamination is . resin coat..apply the mat..wet it out to accept the next layer .. rinse and repeat until every thing is properly resin saturated ( you only want enough resin to wet out the glass. .. too much resin is not good.. not enough is not good .. you want that Goldylocks zone ) .

2. How much should I overlap the csm and cloth over the existing surrounding floor?

For a one sq/ft repair .. I think 6" would be fine ( if possible ).

YD.

 

[jigngrub]

Re: Please help, need some advice, small deck repair.

Let me explain this another way:

I am a carpenter by trade with over 30 yrs. in the business. I know how wood rots and what it takes to make a strong repair.

Your deck rot extends far beyond the soft spot. When water started penetrating the fiberglass barrier on your deck it fanned out and then seeped down, this happened every time the deck got wet making the spot bigger and bigger. The 'glass barrier on your deck prevented any water form evaporating and trapped it between the 'glass and decking surface.

Water seeks it's own level and will seep down until it joins with other water and then it starts spreading out. Plywood is like a sponge, especially the end grains of the right angle layers. If you were to remove you're whole deck you would see that the rotten spot on top of the decking is much larger on the bottom side of the decking, probably 10x or bigger. Your decking only feels solid because most of it is being supported by expanding floatation foam.

When you do a "cleat and scab" repair in this situation the screws you use to fasten the cleat to the existing decking will mainly be screwing into rotten wood. The screw heads will pull through the rotten decking in short order with foot traffic and even just the natural expansion and contracting of the decking... and now you have a weak floppy spot in your decking.

In order to make a strong/lasting repair you'll need to cut out your decking from stringer to stringer exposing 1/2 of the stringer on each side, this will only leave you with 1/2 - 3/8 of an inch for bearing, which will be pretty weak in itself. Then you'll need to install a bulkhead at the fore and aft cuts, coming up from the hull to the top of the stringers and from stringer to stringer.This needs to be installed so your existing decking sits on half of the bulkhead and your patch sets on the other half, I would suggest a piece of 1 1/2" lumber for these. This will support your patch... but you won't be able to glass them in properly, so I suggest using treated 2x6 or 2x8 cut to the contour of your hull on the bottom and glued to the hull and stringers.

... but anything you do will be in vain if your boat has wet foam below the deck. The moisture will continue to rot your boat from the bottom up and the inside out. You will be finding more soft spots in the deck as your stringers decompose and your transom will start cracking if it's rotten. I'd guess that right now your floatation foam is holding up 50%-85% of your decking.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Please help, need some advice, small deck repair.

Let me explain this another way:

I am a carpenter by trade with over 30 yrs. in the business. I know how wood rots and what it takes to make a strong repair.

Your deck rot extends far beyond the soft spot.

I understand your point .. but agree or disagree to the point that ..

1. The OP Can not afford the suggested efforts that you're strongly suggesting .. #1 .. he cant and will NOT do this.

2. The OP has stated that he has good wood on the cut lines of the deck ( meaning he chased out the bad decking ). So its kinda a little hard for you to believe without a shadow of doubt that he didnt in fact cut to good ply cuts.

3. This has become on the boarder of being too personal .. Please PM me if you wish .. I will give you my personal # if you want to continue this subject. I have nothing to gain or lose. but if there is nothing further in this thread that you can contribute then I suggest you PM Me or ..

YD.

PS. I look forward to your call.

 

[Coyote23]

Re: Please help, need some advice, small deck repair.

Ok, last stupid question, should I let each layer dry before applying the next, or all in one shot?

PS. I actually am starting to enjoy the argument, because I like seeing this from both sides. That's why I'm here, getting DIFFERENT opinions, not robotic responses, so that I can formulate a educated answer as to what to do. I have not yet cut out my square, and will do so soon. At that time I will do a more thorough inspection of everything else. As I said before, the foam I can see is DRY, and a couple inches below the deck, perfectly cut. So I'm not riding on foam, at least not between those two stringers where I can see.

 

[jigngrub]

Re: Please help, need some advice, small deck repair.

I understand your point .. but agree or disagree to the point that ..


3. This has become on the boarder of being too personal .. Please PM me if you wish .. I will give you my personal # if you want to continue this subject. I have nothing to gain or lose. but if there is nothing further in this thread that you can contribute then I suggest you PM Me or ..

My last reply was directed at the OP only... If i'm directing a reply to you I will quote you.

 

[jigngrub]

Re: Please help, need some advice, small deck repair.

I remember another thread nearly identical to this one where the OP thought he just had a little soft spot to repair in his deck... you should take a look at it Yote.

http://forums.iboats.com/boat-restoration-building-hull-repair/first-attempt-boat-repair-579280.html

Your boat will be the same... because when they get to the soft spot in the deck stage they're all the same.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Please help, need some advice, small deck repair.

Ok, last stupid question, should I let each layer dry before applying the next, or all in one shot?

Up to a certain point you can apply all the layers of glass at one time, three or four layers is normally OK, but the weight of the fabric and ambient temperature has a great deal to do with it. Heat is what determines how many layers you can do at one time, you don’t want it to overheat and discolor the laminate. Heavier fabrics will build thickness faster, so fewer layers can be used at one time, plus the warmer it is the hotter it will get. The other factor is the resin, the stuff you buy at the big box store tends to be very fast and hot (I’m not sure why they choose a resin like this) and will get much hotter, so fewer layers can be put down at one time.

 

[Coyote23]

Re: Please help, need some advice, small deck repair.

Thanks ondarvr, very helpful.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Please help, need some advice, small deck repair.

Ok, last stupid question, should I let each layer dry before applying the next, or all in one shot?

All in one shot if you can. Its actually better if you can put at least 3 layers of lams at a time. Bubble rolling one layer is impossible .. rolling out 2 layers is hard .. rolling out 3 layers is perferable .

My last reply was directed at the OP only... If i'm directing a reply to you I will quote you.

Sorry then if I jumped the gun on that one ..

I remember another thread nearly identical to this one where the OP thought he just had a little soft spot to repair in his deck... you should take a look at it Yote.

http://forums.iboats.com/boat-restoration-building-hull-repair/first-attempt-boat-repair-579280.html

Your boat will be the same... because when they get to the soft spot in the deck stage they're all the same.

They are Not all the same. The differences in build products and bedding/construction can make these types of repairs Vary from boat to boat.

One screw on deck that was not properly done could result in a failure of water intrusion ( even though the rest of the lams are solid ). It would mean that a localized repair Might be just that .. Localized.

Up to a certain point you can apply all the layers of glass at one time, three or four layers is normally OK, but the weight of the fabric and ambient temperature has a great deal to do with it. Heat is what determines how many layers you can do at one time, you don’t want it to overheat and discolor the laminate. Heavier fabrics will build thickness faster, so fewer layers can be used at one time, plus the warmer it is the hotter it will get. The other factor is the resin, the stuff you buy at the big box store tends to be very fast and hot (I’m not sure why they choose a resin like this) and will get much hotter, so fewer layers can be put down at one time.

I am almost positive that it has to deal with over the counter Resin cure. Cant have them box stores sell resin that does not kick off. So they make it fast cure. Almost hard to mess up unless you dont add the hardener to it at all .. I mean if the boxed resin does not cure we would have to come to 2 conclusions .. either the end user added No hardener .. or the resin used Exact mixing ratios for the resin ( which has variables just like you said ) resulting in not a full cure.

YD.

 

[jigngrub]

Re: Please help, need some advice, small deck repair.

They are Not all the same. The differences in build products and bedding/construction can make these types of repairs Vary from boat to boat.

One screw on deck that was not properly done could result in a failure of water intrusion ( even though the rest of the lams are solid ). It would mean that a localized repair Might be just that .. Localized.

Are you really that naive, or have you just not been paying attention in this forum? Can you show me just one fiberglass boat restoration that had a soft spot in the deck without any below deck damage?

The build products and bedding/construction of these boats are all nearly identical, they have to be to keep their prices competitive. The materials are basically the same... polyester resin, glass matt and cloth, and pine/fir dimensional lumber or plywood. The below deck build craftsmanship is usually about the same too, sloppy... because it'll never be seen until the decking is removed.

One botched screw hole that turns into an 8" diameter soft spot is indicative of long term exposure and neglect,and the results of this won't be pretty when the deck is lifted.

As far as the damage/repair being "localized", the below deck damage may be "localized" to the port or starboard sides if the boat was stored with one side higher than the other... or it may be "localized" to the fore or aft depending on if the boat was stored with the bow up or down... but there will be below deck damage, and more than likely it'll be extensive.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Please help, need some advice, small deck repair.

Originally Posted by Yacht Dr.
I understand your point .. but agree or disagree to the point that ..


3. This has become on the boarder of being too personal .. Please PM me if you wish .. I will give you my personal # if you want to continue this subject. I have nothing to gain or lose. but if there is nothing further in this thread that you can contribute then I suggest you PM Me or ..

My last reply was directed at the OP only... If i'm directing a reply to you I will quote you.

So this one is for me ?

Are you really that naive, or have you just not been paying attention in this forum? Can you show me just one fiberglass boat restoration that had a soft spot in the deck without any below deck damage?

I can walk down the docks and find boats with decks starting to fail without having any stringer/bulkie problems.

I can tell about New out of the box boats that have deck Failure .. Still in the Showroom !!

Never mind my offer to you .. Dont PM me ..

Peace out.

YD.

 

[Grub54891]

Re: Please help, need some advice, small deck repair.

This old fiberglass boat sunk just because the plug was left out:
http://forums.iboats.com/stupid-huma...et-584575.html
The only thing that kept it from sinking deeper was the outboard skeg was on the bottom of the lake in shallow water.
That WAS my old crestliner,the new owner did that to it. It was completely under only the bow up,6 feet of lake right there.
Funny how I drove it 7 years and never had to kick the bilgump in unless it rained, LOL even if it had a float on the bilge pump it would have went down anyway, a 3/4 inch hole provides a lot of water real fast!
Grub

 

[JB]

Re: Please help, need some advice, small deck repair.

This thread belongs to the OP and his question, not to repliers going off topic to take shots at one another.

Please stay on topic so this thread may survive.

 

[Coyote23]

Re: Please help, need some advice, small deck repair.

Ok, I got a little deeper into this last night, took some pics but don't have them with me now, will post them soon. Here is my revised theory:

This boat did not rot from the bottom up. I think it was parked outside, on a slope, starboard side being downhill, many years ago. Everything is very dry, leading me to believe it happened before the previous owner. The rainwater sat on the starboard side, and toward the rear and seeped in through the seat screw holes. This reulted in a 1-2 ft. radius of bad decking.

The CRAZY part of this is that someone TRIED to repair it in this place once before, TRIED being the key word. The 1 foot square patch consisted of 4 STRIPS OF WOOD! They were all white wood, and none of them covered with resin. Over the top they were smeared with some goofy kind of caulk, no fiberglass, no resin.

The boat however must have stayed dry since the repair, because none of that new wood was rotten, even though it was unprotected. The "bad spot" I found was right next to that "repair". So out with the bad spot, out with the bad "repair", and my resin and fiberglass should be here today or tomorrow. My patch is now going to be about 18" x 28" or so.

This is a very shallow boat, there is only about 2 inches of space between the hull and the deck in this bad spot, Tapering to maybe 4-5 inches at the first stringer. There's only about 8-10 inches between the deck and the hull at the ski locker. The stringers look all good, except for the last foot (rear) of one of them, looks like they nailed the repair board to it, puncturing the fiberglass and allowing water in. So I'll have to decide what to do with that one.

Pictures may come tomorrow...

 

[jigngrub]

Re: Please help, need some advice, small deck repair.

Glad to hear you investigated further and things aren't as bad as they usually are with this type repair.