Oh Mr. President, what now?

Skinnywater · Jan 12, 2003

Re: Oh Mr. President, what now?

SCO wrote: "We've got two instincts working here and I've got them both. One to hide/ freeze, two to go crazy like Dennis Hopper in Easy Rider". Oh, me too. In a bad way. One for being attacked on our own soil with innocent lives being the target.

I want concentrated assults on all our enemys. I want total surrender from them. Since 9/11, I'll go further by supporting terrorist attacks against them! That's a pretty good statement for going at it like Hopper. "Hide and freeze" to me would be more like, a very uneasy feeling in the pit of my stomack. A feeling like something is wrong. Plywoody wrote: "And I think all you folks are wildly misinformed regarding Iraq and NK, among other things. Time will tell, as it seems an inexorable progression of events at the present". Plywoody has it to. Funny how you can go back. Waaaay back to all the things that you all agree that this country did wrong. How those actions came to, or are comming to bite us back. We say and agree that they were wrong in retrospect. Think it is a lesson learned and then allow failed policies to continue. You'll back the Prez. in this action, and sadly learn it was oil, or US being a bully, or US being JUST PLAIN WRONG. Yes, Saddam HAS weopons of mass destruction. Twelve(12) years ago we, US, wanted him to have them! Yes, he gassed his own people. Twelve(12) years ago US, Isreal and the UN wanted him to! Yes, he is building a nuclear program. The French and German government have been helping since '97. So what is it? I'll definately be danged mad at my attackers. I'll definately be danged mad at my countries past two-faced, fork-tongued, unethical, unAmerican way it has conducted forein policy affairs to its own people and the people in the rest of the world. Yes, it's a fact the President knows much that we aren't privey to. Both in ways of national defence AND in ways of pure propoganda. Yes, WW2 was a noble cause and HAD to happen. We did save the world from evil. However, two things happend right after our victory. The UN and the Marshall plan. Both the UN and the Marshall plan turned what was a noble cause into one that made this country able to CONTROL the worlds economy. In a sense making US the ruler of the world. If the rest of the world doesn't have a problem with that, neither do I. However, the problem with it would be if we don't hold ourselves without hypocracy, unfair and self-serving policies. This has been happening and the past and comming actions in Iraq will prove to be a continuation of that policy. Many of you want justice and retribution against our attackers. SO DO I. However, what I've been taught is to be consistant in fairness, morality and generally good values. America and its Constitution stand in your face of those values. Can you really, with full use of education, openess, logic, and intellegence, think our government has represented US with those same values?? I'd rather our boys be kickn'butt on Al Kilya. Or against a another REAL threat. Saddam was created by US and it was not mine or YOUR intention. Europe helped plenty AFTER we drove him back into his borders. France, Germany the rest of Europe and Russia need to be at the FOREFRONT of this war against Saddam. While we/US kick some terrorist butt. I'm getting real tired of being <duped>the world police and protecting Europes, the oil corporations and the worlds banks interests. My country: Has a war to fight. A foreign policy to change. A Constitution to remember. A growing deficet to control. Some infrastucture to build. Some GDP to make. Some leadership to example. Some laws to delete/change. Some morals to get back to. Some air and water to conserve. Some energy to use wisely. Some children to educate. Some people to feed. Some OF OUR OWN BUSINESS TO MIND. Hear, you Hawks! I'll make a deal with you. I'll pretend to feel good about attacking Iraq. If you agree, when we're all done turning it 2,000 deg. F. in the shade of and Iraqi date palm, we back out. We back out of being the worlds police and manipulator. Instead, we completely rethink our foriegn policy. Right the wrongs and move forward with everything that is right about this country. Shoot, some of you might think that is a leftist idea. Gettin' back to the greatness we were meant to be. Instead of what we've become. God bless America and her Patriots.

Skinnywater · Jan 12, 2003

Re: Oh Mr. President, what now?

Forgot. http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/articles/z9305-no-longer-safe.html

boatingfool · Jan 12, 2003

Re: Oh Mr. President, what now?

I am in the armed sevices and I can tell you the last thing we want is war. But when I look at my children ,especially my 4 yr old son,I would rather go fight today so he wont have to tomorrow.Now I know there will always be wars but the threats we are facing today are not going to go away by closing our eyes and pretending they are not there. Sept 11th should have told everybody that.They are only going to get worse so I am ready to do my part to take care of what we have to today not only for the sake of my children but all children.

SCO · Jan 13, 2003

Re: Oh Mr. President, what now?

Again, good points Skinnywater. Plywoody, believe it or not, I agree 100% wrt Johnson. He knew we couldn't win the war and escalated anyway. The Vietnam lesson though was learned primarily by the military who were then the grunts and who are now the brass with considerable influence on how to wage a war. The unfolding scenario has been long anticipated, that of the terrorist weapons of mass destruction, and I think that's why things are coming to a head. We just can't afford to hide our heads in the sand. We may not even have the luxury of morality at this point if down to basic survival. The time for good leadership to have avoided all this is in the past. That we screwed up there is immaterial to our current problem unless a big apology will fix everything up. This could also be an unavoidable clash of culture just now made possible by technological advancment of the Middle East.

Fishbusters · Jan 13, 2003

Re: Oh Mr. President, what now?

Regarding the loss in Korea and Vietnam we lost both because of political decisions. Look at the wars we have won were there ever no fly zones? Were there areas marked on maps that say you can't bomb enemy forces here? I really don't think so. The American military was never allowed to bring it's full might into play in either of these conflicts and were handicapped by the politicians. Today I feel things will be much different in any conflict we care to undertake. I think we learned our lesson the hard way and now we will either fully commit or stay out of the fight. I also think it did not help any at all that the American people were not 100% behind it's military which was caused by the same sort of distrust in the government many people here have suggested. Personally I know that our government and President is not always right but I will back him and it 100% because it is the right thing to do and not because I agree with him. (Although I pretty much do in this instance)

plywoody · Jan 13, 2003

Re: Oh Mr. President, what now?

My big problem with all of your arguments is not that I think we cannot defeat Iraq in short order. I think we can. My big problems are these: 1. Will the world, and Iraq, be a safer place, or not, once Saddam is gone. Iraq has at least three powerful, different groups, that will vie for control once he is gone. None of those groups would ever be confused with democracy, nor are they likely to work in any way together. Iraq will be stable for as long as we maintain troops there, and maintain the peace. Will we have the staying power, and the will, to occupy Iraq long into the forseeable future? I doubt it. Afghanistan we have pretty much left alone to flounder at this point. In my mind, it is just as likely Iraq gets more erratic, rather than less, after an action there. 2. There is absolutely no evidence that Saddam was in any way involved with 9-11, and he is a secular leader, as opposed to most countries in the region who are Islamic states. Iraq is likely to resort to some sort of religious rule once Saddam is gone. Is that better or worse? MY vote is that it will be worse. 3. We need the world's cooperation to go after the real current enemies we face, ie the terrorists. You get cooperation by working together and using diplomacy and all sorts of other suble leadership tactics. You simply do not get cooperation from anyone thru military threat and action. I am 100% in favor of going after our countries enemies. I think we should use all available means to be successful in this regard. I believe history will prove this war, if it happens, will be counter-productive to those goals, and the world will be a less stable place in the war's aftermath.

crab bait · Jan 13, 2003

Re: Oh Mr. President, what now?

it all boils down to :: the stopwatch has been clicked... there's no stoppin'it.. ever since the dawn of time,,, the only way the world,, as we know it,, could end was by an 'act of GOD'.. but as of 50 someodd years ago,, man can/could end his own world.. the clock is tickin'... ............( another 50 years ..?? )..... right now only a few choice countries have the capablity.. but it growin' all the time... right now an for the next 10 years ,, we're just gonna be 'puttin' out fires'.. an tryin' to contain the blaze.. my biggest fear is poor starving blackmarket RUSSIA.. they'd sell a nuke for a three coarse meal... the 'bad guys' don't have to build one.. there's good product for sell aready made..

Skinnywater · Jan 13, 2003

Re: Oh Mr. President, what now?

boatingfool wrote: "I am in the armed sevices and I can tell you the last thing we want is war". To the most intellegent and professional, honourable and bravest warriors in the world. My entire family thanks you. Skinny 173INF Div. "The Patriots" '72-'75

ob · Jan 13, 2003

Re: Oh Mr. President, what now?

The dilemma that the president and his team of advisors face is trying to reason with the spoiled brat attitudes of the terrorist harboring countries.In this case the spoiled brat has tactical means of retalliation.Do you kick the brats ass or pay him to be good?So far it looks like we'll pay North Korea to be good.Negotiations can only be possible if you are negotiating with rationality.

plywoody · Jan 15, 2003

Re: Oh Mr. President, what now?

While we will never reach a point where one negotiation will end the need for future negotiations, I think the walk softly and carry a big stick theory works reasonably well. All the blustery talk, with not much to back it up, will never work. And now this President is "sick and tired" of Saddam's games. Let me see if I got this right. If the inspectors find something, that is cause for war. If the inspectors don't find anything, that means Saddam is hiding things, and that is cause for war. Seems like we are in a bit of a conundrom on this one. Could it be that our president is frustrated because even Tony Blair is suggesting we give the inspectors all the time they need, as are all the rest of our allies? After all, what is the big rush? And with the recent polls showing this president's rating declining, and his ineptness at addressing domestic issues and problems with the economy, he needs a war and he needs it now to bolster his ratings in time for the next election? Nah, that is just a happy coincidence, I suppose.

NOSLEEP · Jan 15, 2003

Re: Oh Mr. President, what now?

What is the big rush. ? I truly believe they are already late. No one wants to put soldiers in harms way, unfortunately thats what soldiers do. The world doesn't need any more reasons to remove Saddam from power.The U.S.does not need to prove anything.It is time for action, and fortunately President Bush does and says what he means.The time for Saddam to show his hand has come. The U.S. doesn't need to wait, and should not wait to see what card he deals next. Lets roll U.S.A.

SCO · Jan 15, 2003

Re: Oh Mr. President, what now?

Bush knew early on what the mission was...to solve this problem we have of people acting to remove us fom Mother Earth. He is not manufacturing a war to bolster polls. Weve been sucked in to the UN method, a Bush mistake possibly, but the story has not yet unfolded sufficiently to make that judgement which we will be able to do someday with 20/20 hindsight. He wants to get the job done on and for the best interests of us Americans. I think this because what he says and does are pretty much what I think I would do were I the President, and I know my motives are not corrupt. Therefore, why assume his motives are corrupt?

12Footer · Jan 16, 2003

Re: Oh Mr. President, what now?

I agree. The U.N. has to exist in today's world. But in it's present form, it does far mnore harm than good. If it cannot be repaired, it should be dismantled completely, and overhauled.

upstate · Jan 16, 2003

Re: Oh Mr. President, what now?

is that a smoking warhead I smell? they found chemical warheads yesterday and sadam saidd, we forgott

Fishbusters · Jan 17, 2003

Re: Oh Mr. President, what now?

A point was made today on the news program we are forced to watch at school that they were empty and out of date. HMMM if out of date why store them especially if they were empty and BTW where did the contents go anyway. Sounds like they were waiting to be filled or emptied in order to make the potent stuff easier to hide while giving up the part you can't hide. Anyway if there are a few I bet there are more.

charleswmoore · Jan 17, 2003

Re: Oh Mr. President, what now?

If it makes yall feel any better I live right between Norfolk Naval, Langly Air Force Base, Fort AP Hill, Ft. Pickett and Richmond air national guard and I can tell you these men and women are on the move. Most everything large, Carriers / Ships /Subs / Aircraft etc. etc. has shipped out. Many of my friends that are active or reserves are being staged to be shipped out as I type this. So it won't be long now! Just thank goodness the inspector game is giving us time to deploy so we can be pro-active and not defensive. As you can see New York is within a day drive and the Pentagon is within half a day so we on this side of the pond still have 9-11 embedded in our day to day activities. I didn't vote for Bush but my opinion of him has grown dramtically since his election. As other posts implied yes he is scary and the people surrounding him know what to do to get the job done and that should concern them more than ever. The only saving grace the other two bit country's have is that our immediate attention is on saddam and not them but they know they are next. That's why all the opposition. Besides if it wasn't for us, Britain and our true allies most of them would be speaking a differnt language right now. As far as protests go I feel confident after they talk to the media they crawl back into there hole and hope the US will be there. No we did not start this but I trust we will finish it.

12Footer · Jan 18, 2003

Re: Oh Mr. President, what now?

Now ya see? here is Charles who isn't even a fan of the current administration, who,as a true American, gotten behind his commander and chief, to suport his country for the big win. How can we fail with such support? God bless you, Charles, and those who have deployed.

Skinnywater · Jan 18, 2003

Re: Oh Mr. President, what now?

So 12footer, A true American is one who "gotten behind his commander and chief" Is this like unconditional love? No need having a 1st ammendment if your going to judge the people who use it as not being "true" Americans. How about if the the President lies under oath to Congress and Federal Courts? What if he asks me to read his lips? What if he uses covert actions to further his own political means while knowingly violates the Constitution he has sworn to uphold? What if he swears to me he isn't a crook? What if he has a "New Deal" for me? What if he put bankers and other secret unknowns ahead of his Country? What if he declares Genecide on all the native people of this Country? What if he puts brother against brother on the battlefield? What if he owned slaves? So, all the people who were against thier Commander and Chief, were not true Americans. That's kind of low level inflamitory language isn't it? Not to worry 12', your view is fully protected by iboats moderators. Should delete my response to you and lock the thread. The moderator has their own political agenda and you are judgeing true Americans now. Flat taken all the fun out of it.

JB · Jan 19, 2003

Re: Oh Mr. President, what now?

Gee, SBN and 12'. You left out a number of sins and/or behaviors viewed by many as sins committed by past Presidents Of the United States. Do you mean that we should only support our President if he is perfect? Have we ever had a perfect President? I agree that many true Americans have objected to some behaviors of some Presidents and that doesn't make them any less true Americans. We are not discussing, here, secret unethical activity. We are discussing the foreign policy position of our government toward an international outlaw, who attempted to assasinate our President, and who has violated his probation and committed every crime that made Adolph Hitler the most reviled and hated national leader in history. There is a difference. Let's keep this discussion on a high plane, so that it wont be necessary to close it. Thanks.

12Footer · Jan 19, 2003

Re: Oh Mr. President, what now?

Precisely, JB. Saddam Husien (SP) suposedly won te recent "election" in his country by 99 or 100% (can't remember which). All I can can say is that will never happen ere in the U.S.A. What I mean by "getting behind our commander in chief", was that as any participant in any battle, the individual is a soldier on one side or the other.If not, he/she is "neutral" to the conflict, and simply must stay sidelined,in the bleachers, or exhiled. These neutral individuals must remain neutral, or they obviously have suported one side or the other,by thier expressed support of one side or the other. It's not hard to understand this. So do not declare me unamerican. Just don't do it. And I quote you Skinny, "So, all the people who were against thier Commander and Chief, were not true Americans. That's kind of low level inflamitory language isn't it? Not to worry 12', your view is fully protected by iboats moderators." No, Skinnywater, that0is just the way it is, in love and war. For/against/neutral, make your stand, and stick like glue, my friend!! That's just plain sad! All I meant was you are iether with the U.S., or you are against us. In war, it must bethis way. If you are on my side, welcome comrad. If not, die at my countrymen's hands, ememy. If you are niether, do not suport iether side, lest you be foundd a traitor to one side, martyr to the other. The math is simple here.There are only two sides. "Us and them",as Roger Waters puts it. The moderators here and on all sites worth thier salt, are not democractic-based. They are dictatorships,and must be. At some point, just as in many heated topics, the gambit of thought and opinions has been penned, (many times,more than once). At that point,or some point close to it, the moderators will close out the topic. And it's totally up to him.That is why we have one.

Oh Mr. President, what now?

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