Need urgent help with gelcoat color!

[jakehardgrave]

Hi guys, I run a small fiberglass repair business in TX. I have worked in the glass industry for awhile but have just opened my own shop. I already seem to have a catastrophic issue that no one can explain.

I am working on a Navy Blue Mastercraft 2008. I know dark colors are hard to work in, but I am a great color matcher and can ussualy make it work. This is the issue: I color match the gelcoat, thin, catalyze, and spray. I come back in the morning and the color is so spot on I had trouble finding my unsanded repair. I then hand block the finish from 400 all the way to 800. I notice the color has dramatically lightened and has reappeared. I proceed to clean it up and buff with Imperial and its sticks out like a sore thumb. I fret and respray it twice more and get the same results. I talked to Spectrum Color about it (using their gelcoat) and their tech guys said what I know to be true. The cured color is the finished color. Not in this case!!! They could only tell me that maybe my Duratec was causing the issue. Called duratec and they said theres no way. could it be an overcatalize being very apparent in the dark color? maybe because weve had high humidity for awhile? Maybe stail gelcoat?

Stats of spray:

Spectrum color match, field tinted to match.

thinned with duratec high gloss 30%

sprayed with preval to sufficient thickness, (the problem is not related to thickness)

sanded with 3m gold 320, 400, 600, 800

buffed with 3m imperial

Please help, this is an expensive boat, I feel like Im in a bad situation, Ive never had a problem I didnt understand with gelcoat.

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Need urgent help with gelcoat color!

Send a PM to Yacht Dr. He would be your Best Bet for getting advice on this.

 

[jakehardgrave]

Re: Need urgent help with gelcoat color!

thanks

 

[Georgesalmon]

Re: Need urgent help with gelcoat color!

I know you said its not thickness related, but,,,,,,,You did thin 30% with duratec which means that the pigments were also diluted by 30%. So, instead of the normal 18mil wet, 12mil dry hide of the gelcoat did you increase the thickness by 30% at least AFTER sanding? Just a thought.

 

[jakehardgrave]

Re: Need urgent help with gelcoat color!

Yeah, the problem is apparent when hiding the original color, thus if the hide is too thin, it would show through the original color blue.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Need urgent help with gelcoat color!

Welcome to Iboats Jake ..

Okies .. lets get down to some info first please ..

1. When you say its lighter blue then before .. do you mean a lighter blue halo around the patch or is it the whole new sprayed gel that is lighter.

2. Are you wetsanding at ALL. Before or after the gel was sprayed .. is there any wet sanding involved in your repair.

3. What pigments/tints are you using in the field to bring it to color..

4. Have you tried not using the Duratec and only use MEK or acetone solvent for reduction.

5. HOW Thick are your sprays and how long did you wait between coats. ( Thin after thin with 5 min between each coat .. thick and 2 min between coats kinda question )

6. Are you using low VOC gel from Spectrum ( It might just say Navy blue VOC or something )

7. Are you coating it with PVA.

And finally .. how did you guys determine the color of the 'Navy Blue' ? Which blue # are you using ..

I see a few here from Spectrum for a 08' mastercraft ...

Spectrum #'s Name of color and years used

3973 Blue Swirl/Monterey (1999-2008)
3989 Mediterranean blue (2003-2011)
3900A Navy blue (2005-2008)
3902A Navy Val LVOC (2006-2007)
3905A Seaside Blue (2007-2008/11)
3909A Navy CCP ( 2008-2011)

As you can see there is a possibility that your using the incorrect color or VOC condition. If you find out its 'Navy Blue' does not mean you have the right 'Navy blue' .. Sucks dont it.

I Added the 3902A Navy Val LVOC even though its not in your 08' year .. it still could have been used in that production.

Which one did you order.

Ill Be here..

YD.

 

[jakehardgrave]

Re: Need urgent help with gelcoat color!

Thanks for the reply, Im not at the shop, but I believe its the 3900A Navy blue (2005-2008).

1. the entire patch, even color.

2. definitley used some wet sanding before and after. boat was wiped with acetone and allowed to dry before spraying however.

3. Im using the jars of concentrated pigment from johnson fiberglass supply, no tube colors.

4. Tried both

5. sprayed thinned gelcoat pretty thick, waited maybe a minute or two, sprayed again, waited, and sprayed one last time. Nice thickness built.

6. refer to top

7. Tried once with PVA applied after the kick to see if it was any different, but it changed nothing and the duratec should be its own surfacing agent right?

I want to stress that one, Ive made countless flawless color matches in the past, and with this job its no different when sprayed and cured. with the exception of the slight orange peel, you would never see the repair. UNTIL SANDED......

thank you

 

[jakehardgrave]

Re: Need urgent help with gelcoat color!

Yacht Dr, your questions may have raised a thought in my mind, when the hull was wet sanded and dried, I guess a certian percentage of moisture was retained in the porous gelcoat, thus causing a moisture induced milkyness. Does that seem like a viable concern? I mean, im not spraying gelcoat onto a water wet boat, I certianly dry it first, but maybe I still have moisture on a microscopic level. So frustrating, Ive resprayed this area so many times I think Im going to puke haha.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Need urgent help with gelcoat color!

Thanks for the reply, Im not at the shop, but I believe its the 3900A Navy blue (2005-2008).

Make sure its the right color. You may need the LVOC or CCP. I remember doing a red on a Mastercraft that everything pointed to one color.. after one attempt I called mastercraft and found out it was another color from a prior year. Bang dead on match.

1. the entire patch, even color.

Well that eliminates perosity surrounding the repair.

2. definitley used some wet sanding before and after. boat was wiped with acetone and allowed to dry before spraying however.

Consider Dry sanding for everything ( prep and post cure finish sanding ). There was a blue I used once that would turn a lighter color when water ran over it. Dunno why but the color changed back after it was dry.

I like to dry sand everything if I can help it.

3. Im using the jars of concentrated pigment from johnson fiberglass supply, no tube colors.

Actually .. I ment what color pigments are you adding and how much are you adding. Sometimes you need to add some Clear or Neutral gel to your mix when adding tints to darker color bases. The resin to tint ratio might become too unstable without adding more gel to it ( Duratec does not count as Resin base ).

4. Tried both

I would recommend that you stay with an additive other then Dtec. I like the patch aid from CCP for small/medium repairs. Or you can try nothing but Acetone or MEK solvent to thin.

5. sprayed thinned gelcoat pretty thick, waited maybe a minute or two, sprayed again, waited, and sprayed one last time. Nice thickness built.

I have seen gel swing hard on colors when custom matching is done. The best application method when using a gel that has a lot of tint in it is to apply in more Thinner coats. Dont build up 3 times. Do it maybe in 5-6 light coats ( or more if needed ). I feel that the pigments cant flow as much in a puddle than a pond kinda thing.

6. refer to top

Double check again ..Triple check if you feel the person on the other end of the line doesnt quite know for sure.

7. Tried once with PVA applied after the kick to see if it was any different, but it changed nothing and the duratec should be its own surfacing agent right?

Dtec is an additive that has surfacing agents in it yes .. but I dont know what it does to the pigments/tints in the mix.

I have Never used Dtec until recently .. and my vote is still out on that. Matched gel perfectly without it in the past so I dont know why it helps me now.

I want to stress that one, Ive made countless flawless color matches in the past, and with this job its no different when sprayed and cured. with the exception of the slight orange peel, you would never see the repair. UNTIL SANDED......thank you

I would try the thinner layers of spray and more of them. Dont let the colors move around and surface so much.

Use Acetone and PVA for your reduction and surfacing agent.

Try to dry sand as much as possible.

Let it cure for a few days. Let it cure !

Try not to put too much heat while wheeling ( treat it like paint and dont over heat the surface ). Bring your grits up to like 1500 and buff it slowly.

Yacht Dr, your questions may have raised a thought in my mind, when the hull was wet sanded and dried, I guess a certian percentage of moisture was retained in the porous gelcoat, thus causing a moisture induced milkyness. Does that seem like a viable concern? I mean, im not spraying gelcoat onto a water wet boat, I certianly dry it first, but maybe I still have moisture on a microscopic level. So frustrating, Ive resprayed this area so many times I think Im going to puke haha.

Never had this problem with wetsanding or otherwise. So no I dont think its a viable concern

YD.

 

[jakehardgrave]

Re: Need urgent help with gelcoat color!

Yacht Dr,

I believe Ive fixed the issue, changes ive made, before spraying, I took my heat gun and lightly warmed the surface of the boat to force out any moisture, then mixed up gelcoat with dtec as before, sprayed in 5 light coats, waited overnight before touching it, came back and dry sanded it. at first, I felt like the problem was still apparent. but as I moved up to 800 grit, it was less apparent, and after imperial, the blend magically happened. Not sure which of those variables did the trick, but hey, knock on wood.

About the Dtec, I dont believe it caused the problem, and Ive only used it for a few months but I see no reason to stop. It doesnt affect anything colorwise, when used properly, it can almost eliminate orange peel from a preval, and no pva neccicary.

Thanks for all the help!!

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Need urgent help with gelcoat color!

It was probably the lighter coats that did the trick.

Remember .. a Good gel match is not just when your done .. it continues for 5+ years after that.

Sure it looks good now and get paid. But what happens to your repair next season..or 3 seasons ..

If you have never had a prospect tell you that you need to do a better job then "the last glass guy" then your fresh into the game of gelcoating .

Looked good when he paid him 200 bucks .. but now its a yellow splotch on the side of his boat.

This is why I dont really recommend Dtec. Its a high gloss additive with its UV stuff. But sometimes its better to let your repair Die with the rest of the boat naturally without a UV gloss coat surfacing to the repair.

Its not just the match of the color its a Match to the Year and condition of the boat.

I have done A lot of repairs that I dont even BUFF out .. Yup you heard correctly. I dont even put any buffing process in the repair. Just sand it and leave it.

Matched perfectly to the rest of that faded out gel around it. I explain "sure I can buff out that repair for ya .. and your gonna see it.. but then its gonna cost 400 bucks to blend in a 6" Brand New factory shine to your old boat"

Or .. even more times I have Custom matched a color that didnt match. Its close .. but not to the liking of the customer. I say " I put alot of yellow in there .. its gonna change.. give it a few months and it will "Swing In to the proper color and hold for a long time". Those guys have always called back a few months later and they can no longer see the repair(s).

Thats what makes you good. Be honest about the nature of gel-patches and willing to tell him that you can custom match it perfectly NOW .. but its gonna change. You have to know how it changes ..

Im really going off the deep end on ya now .. but its a sore subject on "matchers" for me.

You know All those Yellow spots or other mis-matched splattered across a good paying guys boat that just scream to you what a bad gel guy that was. Im sure it looked good when he paid him. But now he is coming to YOU for some reason.

Match your color to color .. and match it to year and fade out.

YD.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Need urgent help with gelcoat color!

That last reply was not directed towards you in any way .. just for learning and experience.

YD.

 

[jakehardgrave]

Re: Need urgent help with gelcoat color!

Thanks for all the help again Yacht Dr. and your quote about doing a job that someone else missed, thats exactly what this is. Ive taken a gamble and opened a glass shop in lubbock, TX, where while small, there is a boating industry. There is absolutley no glass people up here however. After talking to the local boat dealers in town, theyve confessed to giving all glass repair requests to an auto paint shop to be bondoed and sprayed with paint. Now there giving them to me because none of the customers like how they turned out.