Need better hole shot

[Frostz28]

My skiing days are over but I remember the days of loading the boat with people in their 20s/30s and a few of us wanting to ski. Back then it was mostly double skis (no one had learned to slalom yet) and the carbed 4.3 in an 18' was good to go. As we transitioned into slalom the 4.3, with boat loaded, wasn't going to cut it. Drag and drown was the order of the day. It completely depends on the skier also. A well fit experienced slalom skier can pop up on most anything. The problem with humans is, we're never satisfied. If you can find a prop that helps, my prediction would be it won't for long. Next problem will be the Rinker throws too big a wake and on and on. Sometimes reigning in our expectations is the cheaper fix. Of course money can fix many things. If you're really into skiing and have a lot of friends, go for a tow boat.

Yeah I spent most of my life skiing behind boats that were somewhat "under powered" for the task. Spent a lot of time dragging. lol I learned to slalom at a young age and skied behind any boat I would get to pull me. We had lots of friends with boats and I got to ski behind all kinds of boats. I was lucky enough to get to ski behind master crafts a lot. They are great for what they do, which is pull skiers. Other than that they weren't very practical. (maybe some of the newer ones are a little more "family friendly") but our family stuck with something a little more versatile. We had a Larson, a Sea Sprite, a Rinker, a Glastron, a Four Winns.... I think that's it. They all had differing levels of power they weren't "ski boats" so they would drag you through the water for a good bit before they could get you up on one ski. Some were more of a drag than others but in the end you would end up on top the water. The last boat my dad had was was a 19' Rinker with a carbed 4.3 just like you mentioned. we had four or more 200 pound adults in the boat and a 200 pound skier out back, it took a bit but she would get you up every time. So I'm no stranger to the drag, and I don't expect this boat to pop me out of the water like a master craft. However when there is ZERO chance of me getting up behind this boat, even with just a couple people on board, in my opinion something needs to be adjusted. I don't mind if there's some dragging but if a very experienced skier stands no chance of getting up behind the boat, I need to make a change. At the end of the day if I can't take my son, or nieces and nephews skiing and tubing then I either need to adjust the prop, or get a new boat because for us, a boat we cant ski and tube behind isn't getting the job done. I don't mind buying a new boat if that's what is needed but before I do that I'm trying to experiment with some props.

 

[Scott06]

Yeah I spent most of my life skiing behind boats that were somewhat "under powered" for the task. Spent a lot of time dragging. lol I learned to slalom at a young age and skied behind any boat I would get to pull me. We had lots of friends with boats and I got to ski behind all kinds of boats. I was lucky enough to get to ski behind master crafts a lot. They are great for what they do, which is pull skiers. Other than that they weren't very practical. (maybe some of the newer ones are a little more "family friendly") but our family stuck with something a little more versatile. We had a Larson, a Sea Sprite, a Rinker, a Glastron, a Four Winns.... I think that's it. They all had differing levels of power they weren't "ski boats" so they would drag you through the water for a good bit before they could get you up on one ski. Some were more of a drag than others but in the end you would end up on top the water. The last boat my dad had was was a 19' Rinker with a carbed 4.3 just like you mentioned. we had four or more 200 pound adults in the boat and a 200 pound skier out back, it took a bit but she would get you up every time. So I'm no stranger to the drag, and I don't expect this boat to pop me out of the water like a master craft. However when there is ZERO chance of me getting up behind this boat, even with just a couple people on board, in my opinion something needs to be adjusted. I don't mind if there's some dragging but if a very experienced skier stands no chance of getting up behind the boat, I need to make a change. At the end of the day if I can't take my son, or nieces and nephews skiing and tubing then I either need to adjust the prop, or get a new boat because for us, a boat we cant ski and tube behind isn't getting the job done. I don't mind buying a new boat if that's what is needed but before I do that I'm trying to experiment with some props.

My experience is much the same skiing was run what you brung back in the day. Most of our skiing was done behind our neighbors 1969 Starcraft (about 18 ft/ 110 hp merc) and later our 17 ft Sea Ray / 3.0. Both were underpowered to say the least.

As mentioned earlier I got decent results on the Sea Ray by swapping to a 16" Michigan Vortex 4 blade, ran a 18" for non ski days. You are just running too much pitch at 21". What props have you tried ? Would be helpful to have the WOT rpm with current prop but willing to bet its on the low side. Would think a 19" or 17" if you really want to go low will work (16" or 18" in four blade). Personally I prefer four blades for stern lift and similar use to you.

I learned about pitch and blade design with cheap aluminum props on my 17 ft, when I got a new to me 21 ft I felt confident selecting Stainless ones. Bought them all used on ebay over a couple of seasons.

My 21 ft Sea Ray 200 sport (2004) is probably similar to your set up in size and weight. I repowered the 4.3 that the PO cracked to a 5.0 with a 4 bbl Carb (260 hp at crank) but kept the 4.3 drive ratio (1.81) and am running a 21" Revolution 4. I would probably do better hole shot wise with a 20".

You have slightly less power , a 1.62 ratio, and a 21" pitch with predictable results. If it were my boat I would try both a 16" and 18" Michigan Vortex 4 blade. They may still blow out , so if you end up doing a revolution 4 would think 18" or maybe 19" would be good (maybe 17" its a big prop).

Of course a lot of assumptions in those comments....

 

[Frostz28]

My experience is much the same skiing was run what you brung back in the day. Most of our skiing was done behind our neighbors 1969 Starcraft (about 18 ft/ 110 hp merc) and later our 17 ft Sea Ray / 3.0. Both were underpowered to say the least.

As mentioned earlier I got decent results on the Sea Ray by swapping to a 16" Michigan Vortex 4 blade, ran a 18" for non ski days. You are just running too much pitch at 21". What props have you tried ? Would be helpful to have the WOT rpm with current prop but willing to bet its on the low side. Would think a 19" or 17" if you really want to go low will work (16" or 18" in four blade). Personally I prefer four blades for stern lift and similar use to you.

I learned about pitch and blade design with cheap aluminum props on my 17 ft, when I got a new to me 21 ft I felt confident selecting Stainless ones. Bought them all used on ebay over a couple of seasons.

My 21 ft Sea Ray 200 sport (2004) is probably similar to your set up in size and weight. I repowered the 4.3 that the PO cracked to a 5.0 with a 4 bbl Carb (260 hp at crank) but kept the 4.3 drive ratio (1.81) and am running a 21" Revolution 4. I would probably do better hole shot wise with a 20".

You have slightly less power , a 1.62 ratio, and a 21" pitch with predictable results. If it were my boat I would try both a 16" and 18" Michigan Vortex 4 blade. They may still blow out , so if you end up doing a revolution 4 would think 18" or maybe 19" would be good (maybe 17" its a big prop).

Of course a lot of assumptions in those comments...

 

[Frostz28]

yeah I have my eye on the revolution props as well. I've heard good things. Right now I'm doing, as you said, experimenting with aluminum, until I get a little closer to where I need to be then I may look into a stainless. I know there will be a bit of performance difference between the stainless and aluminum but I honestly haven't notices much. I usually run the aluminum in the river and the stainless at the lake.

 

[Stinnett21]

WIth my 5.0 MPI I changed from a 21 to 19 and made a big difference. The 21 was at 4700, within the motors range of 4600-5000, and the 19 put me at 5100. All I do is cruise and I still like the performance with the 19 better than the 21. Tbh I think it actually uses less fuel. Top end stayed the same, hole shot improved, just all around better. Mine is the crummy Vengeance that gets no love on here but I'm dialed in so well makes it hard to justify the $700 for a better prop. But who knows I may get bored and Ebay something else in the future.

 

[Stinnett21]

The Enertia is not heralded as a ski prop but the beauty of it is you can dial it in, in 1" pitch increments vs 2" as most all others. I've never tried it but that might come in handy if you're trying to cover all bases, ski vs cruise.

 

[Scott06]

WIth my 5.0 MPI I changed from a 21 to 19 and made a big difference. The 21 was at 4700, within the motors range of 4600-5000, and the 19 put me at 5100. All I do is cruise and I still like the performance with the 19 better than the 21. Tbh I think it actually uses less fuel. Top end stayed the same, hole shot improved, just all around better. Mine is the crummy Vengeance that gets no love on here but I'm dialed in so well makes it hard to justify the $700 for a better prop. But who knows I may get bored and Ebay something else in the future.

That is 100% correct if you are propped such that you can get to the top or just above the max range the boat will have much better throttle response and snappier performance.

The Enertia is not heralded as a ski prop but the beauty of it is you can dial it in, in 1" pitch increments vs 2" as most all others. I've never tried it but that might come in handy if you're trying to cover all bases, ski vs cruise.

The revolution 4 is also available in inch increments.

 

[Stinnett21]

That is 100% correct if you are propped such that you can get to the top or just above the max range the boat will have much better throttle response and snappier performance.

The revolution 4 is also available in inch increments.

You are right. I stand corrected. Apparently it comes in 1" in the 17-21" range.

 

[Scott06]

You are right. I stand corrected. Apparently it comes in 1" in the 17-21" range.

Wasnt trying to correct you. I think with the tighter wot rpm ranges on some engines and tighter peak power bands you will see more props in 1” increments

 

[Frostz28]

Someone mentioned earlier that with the MPI I would have a rev limiter. Now I'm used to rev limiters on cars and its usually pretty obvious when you hit the rev limiter there. However While messing with a couple props last year, at WOT each one ended up right about the "maximum suggested RPMs". Speed changed a bit but not much. Now I'm wondering if it was stopping at the max rpm because of the rev limiter or because of the prop. From what I understand, ideally you want to prop your boat so that the fastest it can spin the prop is right at "red line" I could be wrong about that but that's my understanding. That makes me wonder then, would I know if I was hitting the rev limiter? Maybe with those props the engine would normally over rev but because of the limiter it wasn't. In theory meaning I could prop it for more low end acceleration because I have more "room left on the tach". I don't know if that makes sense or not.

 

[Scott06]

Someone mentioned earlier that with the MPI I would have a rev limiter. Now I'm used to rev limiters on cars and its usually pretty obvious when you hit the rev limiter there. However While messing with a couple props last year, at WOT each one ended up right about the "maximum suggested RPMs". Speed changed a bit but not much. Now I'm wondering if it was stopping at the max rpm because of the rev limiter or because of the prop. From what I understand, ideally you want to prop your boat so that the fastest it can spin the prop is right at "red line" I could be wrong about that but that's my understanding. That makes me wonder then, would I know if I was hitting the rev limiter? Maybe with those props the engine would normally over rev but because of the limiter it wasn't. In theory meaning I could prop it for more low end acceleration because I have more "room left on the tach". I don't know if that makes sense or not.

What engine other than 5.0 do you have ? serial number if you have it.

On a merc the carbed Thunderbolt V systems have a rev limiter too. It will be felt as a miss, you can't miss it... it drops ignition from cylinders then rpm will drop a tad, will keep repeating until you pull back. Dash tachs can typically be inaccurate as well.

Unless you felt a miss you were not on the rev limiter and hit the wall of available power/ the hull/ and prop design.

Yes boat performance will be best when you are in the upper end of WOT range. You may find that to get the hole shot you want you can over rev when lightly loaded. This is where people run a couple different props depending on what they are doing/load in boat that day.

Wouldn't hurt to see if you can test the tach vs a known good shop tach.

 

[Frostz28]

What engine other than 5.0 do you have ? serial number if you have it.

On a merc the carbed Thunderbolt V systems have a rev limiter too. It will be felt as a miss, you can't miss it... it drops ignition from cylinders then rpm will drop a tad, will keep repeating until you pull back. Dash tachs can typically be inaccurate as well.

Unless you felt a miss you were not on the rev limiter and hit the wall of available power/ the hull/ and prop design.

Yes boat performance will be best when you are in the upper end of WOT range. You may find that to get the hole shot you want you can over rev when lightly loaded. This is where people run a couple different props depending on what they are doing/load in boat that day.

Wouldn't hurt to see if you can test the tach vs a known good shop tach.

Interesting. I don't have the serial number off hand. It might be in the giant pack of papers I have at home. All I know is its the original motor from 2005 its a 5.0 and fuel injected. If it has a rev limiter I definitely never hit it because I felt nothing like you described. Maybe I do have a little room at the top end to play with. I have two props on their way to my house now based on every one's suggestions that will HOPEFULLY improve my hole shot. If they do but I lose a lot of top end I don't mind switching props when I need to. It would have to be a lot though because I rarely find reason to burn fuel as fast as possible just to go a few MPH faster. I know my boat isn't fast and don't really care. I just want to have a good time with the family. As far as the tach being off, growing up on older boats, Ive come to assume most gauges on boats are more of a general idea rather than a precise reading. Considering what I am trying to figure out here it would probably help to have an accurate reading. I have an appointment at the shop to have her serviced and checked over when we get down. I might call them and ask if they could add that to the list of things to check.

 

[Scott06]

Interesting. I don't have the serial number off hand. It might be in the giant pack of papers I have at home. All I know is its the original motor from 2005 its a 5.0 and fuel injected. If it has a rev limiter I definitely never hit it because I felt nothing like you described. Maybe I do have a little room at the top end to play with. I have two props on their way to my house now based on every one's suggestions that will HOPEFULLY improve my hole shot. If they do but I lose a lot of top end I don't mind switching props when I need to. It would have to be a lot though because I rarely find reason to burn fuel as fast as possible just to go a few MPH faster. I know my boat isn't fast and don't really care. I just want to have a good time with the family. As far as the tach being off, growing up on older boats, Ive come to assume most gauges on boats are more of a general idea rather than a precise reading. Considering what I am trying to figure out here it would probably help to have an accurate reading. I have an appointment at the shop to have her serviced and checked over when we get down. I might call them and ask if they could add that to the list of things to check.

Here is a thread on the rev limiter on an MPI engine. Would assume you feel a miss same as carbed but cannot be sure. Per the thread I believe yours would kick in at 5150 rpm. The crab style ignition caps on the mpi are known issues but usually has a miss. Last summer my neighbors VP MPI was sluggish on holeshot. She is a very avid skiier, but is in her 70's now.... Flame arrrestor was covered in fuzz, of course it is buried under a plastic cover. She was pissed because she just paid for summerization and tune up incl ignition...

Rev limiter

Can someone educate me on a rev limiter question? I rarely ever run WOT but I’m considering a re-prop so I’m trying to get a baseline with current set up. So here’s the question: what does the rev limiter on a 2002 5.0 MPI do? What does it sound like? In other words how do I know when it...

forums.iboats.com

 

[Stinnett21]

I hit my limiter once (2002 5.0 MPI) in the now 20+ years of owning the boat. I rarely ever go to WOT but conditions must have been just right that day. I had recently put the 19" on. I can vouch that the 5150 is correct. I heard a beeping sound. I can't say I remember an ignition miss however. Quickly backed it down. Frostz, your engine should be Vessel View Mobile capable. Highly recommend this device. All readings come directly off the ECM bluetoothed to your phone.

 

[Stinnett21]

Wasnt trying to correct you. I think with the tighter wot rpm ranges on some engines and tighter peak power bands you will see more props in 1” increments

Yeah just noticed the Tempest Plus does also.

 

[Scott06]

Yeah just noticed the Tempest Plus does also.

its the prop version of one footitis....

 

[Frostz28]

I hit my limiter once (2002 5.0 MPI) in the now 20+ years of owning the boat. I rarely ever go to WOT but conditions must have been just right that day. I had recently put the 19" on. I can vouch that the 5150 is correct. I heard a beeping sound. I can't say I remember an ignition miss however. Quickly backed it down. Frostz, your engine should be Vessel View Mobile capable. Highly recommend this device. All readings come directly off the ECM bluetoothed to your phone.

I've never even heard of "vessel View" but it looks fantastic! Added that to the cart! The delivery guys are going to love me!

 

[Frostz28]

Well I got the first of my 3 props this weekend. I won't be able to try them out until memorial day weekend when we get down to the lake but I will be sure to post the results when I get to do some testing.

 

[Scott06]

Well I got the first of my 3 props this weekend. I won't be able to try them out until memorial day weekend when we get down to the lake but I will be sure to post the results when I get to do some testing.

What props did you buy ?

 

[Frostz28]

What props did you buy ?

I got a Michigan wheel Vortex 4 blade 15"X16 a Quick Silver Nemesis 4 blade 14x19 and a Quick silver Black Diamond 3 blade 15x19.... I think, so many numbers flying around. I know none of them are top of the line props. I'm just trying to get a feel for what I need, or figure out if a prop will even save me at this point. Once I have an answer to those questions I may go find a good quality prop. For now its about experimenting. I may even add more to the test group if I come across some other suggestions. I have emails out to a couple prop shops in the lake area as well just to get an idea of what they have on hand and stuff.