Manufactured news?

[JasonJ]

Re: Manufactured news?

The problem with the public perception is a lack of understanding of our military equipment. The Humvee was designed and implemented during the Cold War. It was designed to operate in almost any terrain, during a conventional war where conventional tactics would be deployed. The planners didn't envision what is happening now. It has always been understood that there are weaknesses in the design. <br /><br />It is not an armored personnel carrier like the M113 or the M2 Bradley, it is a light wheeled utility vehicle. Same goes with the trucks. Yes, it would be nice if all the equipment was impervious to attack, but it does not work that way. In a conventional setting, a convoy of wheeled vehicles would be protected by armored weaponry. Unfortunatley, this conflict has exposed, like all wars do, a weakness in the equipment. <br /><br />This weakness will be solved, but it will require a ground up redesign or at the least, extensive retro-fitting of vehicles. This will disrupt logistics, because all military vehicles are designed to travel 300 miles on one tank of fuel (consolidation of refuel points-more efficient). You add armor, you add weight. You then need more power from the engine. Bigger engine equals bigger fuel tank. Its not as easy to solve this problem as a lot of people think it is. Where does that leave our soldiers? Laying sandbags on the floors, bolting scrap steel to the doors, etc. In anotherwords, Adapt and Improvise, a phrase that was hammered into my head the whole time I served. I wish them luck....

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: Manufactured news?

Lake, ummm he wrote that memo to his boss, dont you think he would have chosen his words wisely.<br /><br />His own words say there is armor, but it is "scrap metal". Ummm, the reporter obviosly doesnt know what he is talking about cause when it come to armor, metal is metal. As long as it covers the area, and is thick enough, it will do the job, scrap or not.<br /><br />Ken

 

[KaGee]

Re: Manufactured news?

I'm gonna say something that I'm sure I'm gonna get torched for. I believe the heart of the matter is we got ourselves one of them "make a name for themselves" journalist. But now that the bullets are about to fly, he's grown chicken feet and afraid to ride into Iraq in anything short of an armored personell carrier. Along with him, he's found a couple of National Guardsmen with similar sentiments. <br /><br />I'm tired of people like that journalist, and I'm really growing tired of all these National Guardsmen complaining that they actually have to do what they signed up to do. They gladly accept the bonus money, school tuition and whatever else, but when it comes time to pay the piper, all we hear is whine, whine, whine. <br /><br />Torch away! I'm wearing an asbestos suit! <br />

 

[JB]

Re: Manufactured news?

I had a fantasy this afternoon. <br /><br />Bunch of journalists picketing the white house in 1945 demanding Kamikase-proof ships.<br /><br />What an outrage!! Seven thousand American sailors slaughtered at Okinawa in a week because Truman hadn't supplied them with ships that were impervious to the Kamikase!<br /><br />What a bunch of (bleep) "journalists".<br /><br />Any enemy worth considering will find a weakness and exploit it. You fix it and they will find another.<br /><br />US "journalists" are even better at it than the terrorists.

 

[lakelivin]

Re: Manufactured news?

JasonJ,<br /><br />Thanks for that last post. Nice to read something that's logical and adds to an understanding of the issue rather than generalities that sound like "the libs are out to undermine our ability to win this war" or "the media is out to get republicans".<br /><br />As I stated earlier, I've got a nephew who is probably headed to the mideast in short order. I'm an independant and my concern is based solely on supporting our troops as best we can in order to resolve this conflict quickly and with as few casualties as possible, politics be da**ed. <br /><br />DJ, you state "Any idiot with a computer and a telephone could have found out what the Pentagon was doing about the issue." Others have stated that the problem has been recognized for a year and a half and is being effectively resolved. Well, the answers to the actual question that were provided by our Secretary of Defense and the 3 star General leave me feeling that the issue may not have received the attention it deserved up the chain of command. And if it took a reporter planting a question with one of the troops to raise that attention, so be it. <br /><br />Again, I have a very personal interest in this matter and if I'm going to err it's going to be on the side of troop safety. Sorry if others disagree.

 

[DJ]

Re: Manufactured news?

Lakelivin,<br /><br />If you don't get it, I pity you.<br /><br />Have a nice day.<br />-<br />-<br />-<br />-<br />-<br />-<br />-<br />-<br />-<br />-<br />-<br />-<br />-<br />-<br />-<br />Now I know why I took a one year hiatus from Dockside Chat and a two month hiatus from iboats, in general.<br /><br />What's the use?

 

[BoatBuoy]

Re: Manufactured news?

KaGee, soldiers in every war are unhappy they're in a war - that's the nature of the beast. I think you're being a bit harsh on those that are actually fighting to protect your arse, while you sit comfortably typing useless responses on a generally putrid forum.<br /><br />JB, while I don't agree with most of the opinions in this thread, I respect the right of all to express. You, however, are in a different category. You're a "moderator". You're supposed to be above the fracas and "moderate". Maybe someone else needs to be moderator.

 

[one more cast]

Re: Manufactured news?

All I can say about this is if that question made Rumsfeld look bad and cause all of this commotion then maybe Rumsfeld isn't the man for the job.

 

[cbnoodles]

Re: Manufactured news?

Willy,<br /><br />Get the HE!! off that high horse you're riding. You think you have the franchise on personal experiences with this war and it's victims? My guess is that nearly half the people on this forum know someone or have a friend who knows someone involved.<br /><br />Just because we don't buy into the "Oh look how the Republicans have let our boys down again!" circus media hype doesn't mean we don't care or are unaware. As others have stated, we agree the need for better weapons, armor, training, and leadership never goes away. This is because every weakness is sought out and exploited. We do the same thing to them, only we're better at it than they are.<br /><br />Wake up and listen to what is being said instead of flying off the handle with your vitriolic spew that is based on YOUR misunderstanding of what has been said and written.

 

[12Footer]

Re: Manufactured news?

Actually, DJ, I think you got them to understand the entire situation somewhat, so that right there is the use <br /><br />Lakelivin, you are beginning to "get the big picture" now. What you say you are failing to see is the deceptive journalism that was revealed in the memo, called "propaganda".<br /> You read the "Corespondant's" memo three times, but did you read anything about how he wasn't in a press briefing? Did he say he was going to report on the questions asked of Rumsfeld by the troops present, as was his duty?<br />No he said he knew before hand, they were only taking questions from the troops, so he set up two of "HIS GUYS" to ask the questions HE wanted answered.<br />Simular "reporting" tactics took place in Vietnam. It added one more deadly front to that war---One that the military was powerless to even fight, much less win...That is, to defeat thier own "war corespondants" in thier attempts to turn the American citizen's resolve on it's ear.<br />They did this EXACTLY THE SAME WAYS they are doing it now.They suceeded. Dan Rather was a "war corespondant". And I'm not just saying this "to proove my point". I'm saying this help you understand what is taking place under your very nose by the media, just as it took place under mine 30years ago. I've seen this so many times before, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see it happening again.<br />But don't feel bad, as his tactics weren't meant to be readily visable. If they were, his efforts would have failed miserably.You are only one of millions misled by thier tactics.<br />In WWII, I was just a twinkle in my daddy's eye. but the war correspondants were on our side, as were most of Hollywood. Major film stars like Clark Gable,Jimmy Stewart and other (the highest level of able-bodied actors in that time frame) actually gave-up thier careers, and inlisted! Don't think Sean Penn,Brad Pit, or ANY of them would even consider doing that today. The "war corespondants" we have in the field now, would END thier film careers before they left the states!<br />I think you are seeing the big picture here now. It's not the Humvee armor. It's not the brave soldier who asked a valid question of Rumsfeld, that without QUESTION ,was on the lips of the soldier's own commanders in the field--- It was the anti-American strategy the left is using to bring-down thier own governemt right under our noses! Why? I'll leave that to you to figure out, because, for the life of me, I can't comprehend such hatered over small differences in ideologies between countrymen.

 

[PW2]

Re: Manufactured news?

Ken,<br /><br />That may well be your point, but it is hardly "the" point.<br />The reality appears to be that the soldiers seem to have to scrounge thru scrap metal to armour their vehicles, when we are learning that there is extra production capacity for additional armour and kits, contrary to what Rummy said.<br /><br />And JB, I'd watch that video clip again. The soldiers did indeed clap and cheer when that question was asked.<br /><br />War is indeed dangerous, and Iraq is a dangerous place. All the more reason we should do everything possible to protect our troops.<br /><br />The notion that Rummy would only take questions from selected troops, and no questions from any reporters smacks of wanting to control the news. The idea that most of you are more worried about Rumsfeld being embarrassed by a legitimate question, whomever asked it, than the safety of our troops amazes and appalls me.

 

[WillyBWright]

Re: Manufactured news?

There are three things that stand out in that 30 seconds of history that will be etched in our minds for awhile.<br /><br />1. The audacity of the carefully worded question.<br /><br />2. The pregnant pause, followed by a notable gasp, followed by thunderous and seemingly unanimous applause from the rank and file.<br /><br />3. The shocked look on Rummy's face, mouth agape in disbelief. Precious!<br /><br />The response was actually rather anticlimactic. Just rhetoric. But his demeanor was belittling and arrogant. "You go to war with the army you have, not the army you want." is akin to "Let them eat cake." <br /><br />The source of the question is meaningless. The collective response of the soldiers in the room validates it beyond debate! Make-do is a good excuse in a war of self defense. It can never be an excuse in a war of agression!

 

[SoulWinner]

Re: Manufactured news?

Was Laci Peterson the only killed by her husband? Was Elizabeth Smart the only 14 year old girl abducted? Was Jen Bennet Ramsey the only little girl murdered? Nope, just provocative stories with "Human Interest" that get splashed al over the headlines for ratings. All news is manufactered.

 

[WillyBWright]

Re: Manufactured news?

Catching Rumsfeld speechless on camera. What a coupe! I'm afraid Cheney and Rumsfeld are media targets. Talk about your Grumpy Old Men! Fodder for the media, man. Fodder! See? We hear what you're saying. You're just putting the emPHAsis on the wrong sylLABle.

 

[JB]

Re: Manufactured news?

Interesting notion, BoatBouy. <br /><br />The only difference between me and the other three Mods is that I moderate and post under the same name. The other mods moderate anonymously.

 

[12Footer]

Re: Manufactured news?

Originally posted by WillyBWright:<br /> Catching Rumsfeld speechless on camera. What a coupe! I'm afraid Cheney and Rumsfeld are media targets. Talk about your Grumpy Old Men! Fodder for the media, man. Fodder! See? We hear what you're saying. You're just putting the emPHAsis on the wrong sylLABle.

Huh?

 

[KaGee]

Re: Manufactured news?

Originally posted by BoatBuoy:<br /> KaGee, soldiers in every war are unhappy they're in a war - that's the nature of the beast. I think you're being a bit harsh on those that are actually fighting to protect your arse, while you sit comfortably typing useless responses on a generally putrid forum.<br />

I fully understand that soldiers get frustrated and afraid. I was specifically reffering to National Guardsmen. The soldier and the reporter stiring up this bru-ha-ha are both tied to a National Guard unit.....from Tennesee no less. <br /><br />I don't know if anyone more concerned about covering their own arse is actually acomplishing anything constructive that will protect mine. <br /><br />Most likely events such as this one will probably make the enemy more emboldened to keep up their activities, perhaps expand them on the premise that they are instilling fear in the American soldier and the citizens that send them to war. <br /><br />If this forum is so putrid, there are plenty of other boating and general discussion forms on the net. <br /><br />JB...<br />I for one appreciate an interactive moderator. Don't stop.

 

[two gulls and a bouy]

Re: Manufactured news?

Trying to get ahold of BoatBuoy regarding is Gator trailer restoration. <br />I'm working on a 1959 Gator and am having trouble finding the right wheel seals. I'm hoping you may be able to tell me where you got yours and the part # if posible.<br />Thanks!

 

[lakelivin]

Re: Manufactured news?

JB & BoatBuoy,<br /><br />Interesting point indeed. I understand and agree in general with BBs point about mods and the potential for conflict of interest.<br /><br />But I don't personally think that JB has violated that principle in this thread. He hasn't acted in the role of moderator, just as a participant. <br /><br />Note that from everything I've seen, 'moderator' has a different meaning in forums (ensuring forum rules are observed) than say in a business sense (acting independently from the rest of the participants to effectively help differing sides see other perspectives and reach a mutually agreeable resolution).<br /><br />If JB had negatively edited an opposing viewpoint or used his powers as a mod to further his side or restrict opposing views I'd have a problem. I haven't seen that so far in this thread. And given their voluntary work and limited numbers, I think it would be unfair to ask the mods to restrict their participation in the forums to neutral observers/ enforcers.<br /><br />And I like the idea that JB acts with 'full disclosure', ie, posts under the same name as under which he mods. That way if I do see him acting in a way that I view as a conflict of interest I can point it out and ask him to consider that aspect of his participation.<br /><br />My 2cents on an interesting point. (and does anybody else occasionally get annoyed that while there's a dollar sign key on the keyboard there isn't a cents sign key? don't need it that often, but enough that I wish it were there)

 

[lakelivin]

Re: Manufactured news?

DJ,<br /><br />I understand your frustration (even if it might be from the other side on some issues) and decision to take a break from reading Dockside Chat <br /><br />But I'm curious as to why took two months off from the rest of the forums? I find I'm almost getting addicted given how much I'm learning from the technical ones.