Manufactured news?

[kenimpzoom]

Re: Manufactured news?

WIllyB, you totally missed the point. The media had the story as "Solder asks tough questions, Rumsfield stumbles", not "Lack of armor causing deaths"<br /><br />Dont you see the difference???? The first story simply attacks people, whereas the second story attacks the problem.<br /><br />The media spins the story one way to attack those they dont like. The could not care less about the actual problem.<br /><br />Also WilBWright, no one here denied there was an armor problem. No one said the answer was good. I dont like it either.<br /><br />But I also dont like to be manipulated by the media. They dont control me, but for some reason, they control a lot of people, and then that lot of people go and vote on things that affect me.<br /><br />Ken

 

[NYMINUTE]

Re: Manufactured news?

I think a national news boycott would be a wake up call for the media. Just shut the dam* thing off for a day. Wonder how the ratings would look?

 

[KaGee]

Re: Manufactured news?

Willy, There is no Hummmer built that can handle the amount of armor required to reasonably protect the occupants of the vehicle against attack from RPG or what do they call them.... IED's? The armor they are being upgraded with basically adds some sheilding for small arms and such. <br /><br />Like most Liberal ideas, it's mostly symbolizm over substance.

 

[mrbscott19]

Re: Manufactured news?

Originally posted by KaGee:<br />Like most Liberal ideas, it's mostly symbolizm over substance.

The armor protects against small arms fire and shrapnel. There are over 10,000 of our guys wounded, and guess what caused most of it?? Small arms fire and shrapnel. Symbolism over substance indeed. <br /><br />Gotta make the Repubs not look bad(symbolism), instead of fessing up to the problem and fixing it.(substance) Who really cares where the question came from? It was a valid question that needs addressed. The soldier who read it obviously agreed, or he would have never read it. Think of the soldiers for once istead of focusing on how the liberal media is trying to brain wash the country.

 

[mattttt25]

Re: Manufactured news?

agree with you mrbscott19.

 

[KaGee]

Re: Manufactured news?

Who says the problem is not being fixed??<br /><br />EDIT: From Howard Kurtz of the Washington Post<br /><br />

The problem the Guard soldier pointed out has more to do with other vehicles that the Army operates, such as cargo trucks, to which armor is being added in less formal ways. Of the 30,000 wheeled military vehicles the military has in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere in the region, about 8,000 lack armor, Army Lt. Gen. Steven Whitcomb said.

 

[lakelivin]

Re: Manufactured news?

Maybe the question was planted by the reporter, but my understanding is that the entire crowd of soldiers erupted in cheers when it was asked.<br /><br />As far as the reporters motives, how many of them might have been practical vs. political? I read his memo and nowhere did I see a reference or implication about embarrasing Rumsfield. I saw pride in getting the question about the problem to the top. The reporter was riding with troops stuck with unarmored vehicles and therefore at extra risk himself. And although he chose to be imbedded and could leave at any time, the troops certainly don't have that option.<br /><br />Politics aside, after personally observing beaurocracy in action (or maybe I should say inaction), I've gotta say I do have trouble with anyone sitting in their living room at home criticising the soldiers for using an unorthodox method to attempt to get something accomplished to reduce their risk of injury or death . Does anyone really have doubts that those soldiers had been trying for some time to get more armour through normal channels? <br /><br />I'll bet they accomplised more towards that end in a couple of minutes than would have been accomplished over many months through regular channels.<br /><br />And if it came at the cost of some political embarrassment, I ask this question: how do you REALLY rate supporting our troops vs. political agendas? Seems like it wasn't too long ago that many of you were criticising the democrats for placing politics above support of the troops. Sounds somewhat hypocritical to argue the other way in this case.<br /><br />Sorry if I've offended any posters with a contrary opinion who have actually served and found themselves in harms way. I haven't, and I respect and thank you for your past service. But I've got a nephew in the Marines who stands a good chance of being posted in the mideast soon. And the idea of political sensitivities increasing his risk really p****s me off.

 

[DJ]

Re: Manufactured news?

1. The general use Hummer was NOT designed as an armored vehicle. Improvising is necessary.<br /><br />2. We are fighting a different war. The enemy does not confront directly. Were Jeeps armored in Viet Nam, Korea, WWII? No. Did jeeps run over land mines in those conflicts and injuries result? Yes. Are we slow in getting the necessary equipment? Yes. The beauracracy is no better, I would say worse, than it ever was for any other conflict.<br /><br />I guess we now have an "Army of One". Every soldier for himself. If he has to go against the grain to get his point out. So be it. Regzrdless of orders. That does not bode well for an organization that has relied on discipline and teamwork to survive in the worst of conditions.

 

[JB]

Re: Manufactured news?

No cheers. That claim was also manufactured by the media.<br /><br />There was a subdued "Ooooooohhhh!". Sounded to me more like amazement than cheers.

 

[cmyers_uk]

Re: Manufactured news?

Everything in life is always balanced against cost. There will always be better technology that could save more lives but in the end the costs mean its not there in advance. As hard as it may sound political ends by war allows for casualities I believe in the 1st Gulf war the US command would accept 40,000 casualties from the ground offensive. If you gave them all the armour in the world someone would say ahh but if they each had a tank they would be ok. As for the media I think they work for the other side and should be censored. Look at the problems they have reported by being embedded They should not be there!.

 

[cmyers_uk]

Re: Manufactured news?

Everything in life is always balanced against cost. There will always be better technology that could save more lives but in the end the costs mean its not there in advance. As hard as it may sound political ends by war allows for casualities I believe in the 1st Gulf war the US command would accept 40,000 casualties from the ground offensive. If you gave them all the armour in the world someone would say ahh but if they each had a tank they would be ok. As for the media I think they work for the other side and should be censored. Look at the problems they have reported by being embedded They should not be there!.

 

[DJ]

Re: Manufactured news?

Now the facts start to come out.<br /><br />Sixteen months ago, there were approximately 320 "armored" Humvees in the theater when it became obvious that extra protection was needed. There are now over 15,000. <br /><br />Hmmmm, that seems like pretty good progress to me.

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: Manufactured news?

Many people are still missing the point...<br /><br /><br />

Originally posted by kenimpzoom:<br /> WIllyB, you totally missed the point. The media had the story as "Solder asks tough questions, Rumsfield stumbles", not "Lack of armor causing deaths"<br /><br />Dont you see the difference???? The first story simply attacks people, whereas the second story attacks the problem.<br /><br />The media spins the story one way to attack those they dont like. The could not care less about the actual problem.<br /><br />Also WilBWright, no one here denied there was an armor problem. No one said the answer was good. I dont like it either.<br /><br />But I also dont like to be manipulated by the media. They dont control me, but for some reason, they control a lot of people, and then that lot of people go and vote on things that affect me.<br /><br />Ken

 

[lakelivin]

Re: Manufactured news?

DJ: <br />as to your points:<br /><br />1) ok, but I don't see how an increased focus and effort to do so could be viewed as negative.<br /><br />2) I don't see historical problems as being valid justification for continuing to tolerate them. I'm not naive enough to confuse idealism with the practicality of solving everything, but in this case I can't see cutting through beaurocracy as anything but positive. <br /><br />3) Sorry, but I don't see this particular problem as stemming from one particular soldier. It's been brought up in the past by other units. And I don't see how asking a question trying to get a general problem resolved is going to effect discipline and teamwork amongst the troops. <br /><br />Chris, <br />Of course thre is a cost balance. The question is what is a reasonable cut off point? Every man with his own tank, of course not. Armour plating for vehicles that will be regularly transversing roads that are know to be hazardous and prone to the type of attacks the armour would defend against? Doesn't sound too unreasonable to me. <br /><br />Especially when you look at the price of the Haliburton contracts that were so readily tossed out. Forget about the politics of the no bid contracts. I suspect that the cost overruns and fraud we've already discovered would cover the cost of ensuring armour plated vehicles many times over. Where are our priorities?<br /><br />And note that I was not talking about the politics of the war in general; just the politics of an enlisted man asking a political figure what I consider to be a valid question even if it might cause some embarrassment.

 

[12Footer]

Re: Manufactured news?

Originally posted by DJ:<br /> Now the facts start to come out.<br /><br />Sixteen months ago, there were approximately 320 "armored" Humvees in the theater when it became obvious that extra protection was needed. There are now over 15,000. <br /><br />Hmmmm, that seems like pretty good progress to me.

True,DJ. But the libs and the enemy don't really want to hear the facts. They want a giant stick crammed-into the US military eye, at whatever cost. <br />This whole issue has me at a loss to understand what is so hard to understand about the issue. The libs and the media simply cannot see that MOST of us repubs aren't even QUESTIONING the soldier's actions, or the validity of his complaint,(if they want to call it a "complaint").<br />We take offense at thier PLANNED,STAGED MEDIA CIRCUS. It's reminicent of the movie,"Fairy-high911" and the tactics of that "ace journalist", Micheal Moore, Dan Rather's BS BLATHER,etal. The entire incident doesn't even require any brain-power!<br />After enduring all the low-ball assaults on the country's integrity and our own military efforts durring the elections, in an exteremly feable attempt at winning them,I've just about had it with trying to help them understand the direction the country voted to go, and WHY!<br /><br />They will read this again and again, as we try to explain it, but will STILL belly-ache about the military, or "the administration"... Or , "Not the military, but the warmongers that sent them into Iraq without armored HUMVs"....Predictable and brainless!!!<br />BTW, libs must think HUMVs were designed and built to take a FRENCH-MADE ,shoulder-launched APC,right up the tailpipe, and the occupants escape without a scratch!<br />I think this inabilty to comprehend anything military, has them taking-up arms against it,and attacking thier own forces, but I do not really know for sure.<br />They will not answer any of the following questions, choosing some condescending gloop about "WMD's ,Haliburton, Rummy, Joorje Boosh, or the costs incurred" instead;<br /> <br />What is the curb-weight of a stripped ,stock hummer?<br />What is the curb-weight of a standard issue military version hummer?<br />What does the ARMed version weigh before any armor is tacked-on?<br />What is the weight of the new "armored-up" field humvee?<br />If it were me, I'd want the lowly, vinyl-windowed,zipper-doored model with the pretty 50Cal mounted midships!

 

[DJ]

Re: Manufactured news?

Lakelivin wrote.<br /><br /> 1) ok, but I don't see how an increased focus and effort to do so could be viewed as negative. <br /><br />I don't see it as negative. Just not the way to do it. A smarmy reporter not interested in the facts or doing any research coached a soldier.<br /><br /> 2) I don't see historical problems as being valid justification for continuing to tolerate them. I'm not naive enough to confuse idealism with the practicality of solving everything, but in this case I can't see cutting through beaurocracy as anything but positive. <br /><br />War is war. We don't have all the answers when we enter into it. Otherwise, there would be no injury or death. See below. It was identified and acted on. Cutting beaurocracy is always a good thing. Rumsfeld is a "no nonsense" kind of guy. Most hate him for his straightforwardness. I love it.<br /><br /> 3) Sorry, but I don't see this particular problem as stemming from one particular soldier. It's been brought up in the past by other units. And I don't see how asking a question trying to get a general problem resolved is going to effect discipline and teamwork amongst the troops. <br /><br />You're right, the problem was identified almost two years ago. There are now 47 times more "armored" Humvees in the theater than there were sixteen months ago. Seems to me that the Pentagon has done a helluva job addressing it. Armoring those vehicles is a monumental task. It can't happen overnight. I know that is a shock, to some, in this instant society we live in.<br /><br />The ONLY facts here are that a reporter was fishing for self granduer, duped a soldier, and aided the enemy in the PR game.<br /><br />Is it "manufactured news"? You bet it is.

 

[12Footer]

Re: Manufactured news?

Originally posted by kenimpzoom:<br /> Many people are still missing the point...<br /><br /><br />

Originally posted by kenimpzoom:<br /> WIllyB, you totally missed the point. The media had the story as "Solder asks tough questions, Rumsfield stumbles", not "Lack of armor causing deaths"<br /><br />Dont you see the difference???? The first story simply attacks people, whereas the second story attacks the problem.<br /><br />The media spins the story one way to attack those they dont like. The could not care less about the actual problem.<br /><br />Also WilBWright, no one here denied there was an armor problem. No one said the answer was good. I dont like it either.<br /><br />But I also dont like to be manipulated by the media. They dont control me, but for some reason, they control a lot of people, and then that lot of people go and vote on things that affect me.<br /><br />Ken

I know,Ken. Maybee if we keep bumping this same post,they might not only finally read it, but might even COMPREHEND IT!....Nah. Brain-ded.(NOT YOU personally Willyb, the whole liberal mentality you debate for).

 

[lakelivin]

Re: Manufactured news?

Ken and 12, when you say some of us are missing the point when you talk about 'the media' maybe we need to distinguish exactly what you mean.<br /><br />If you're defining 'the media' as a generic term, I do understand your point. And I'm not qualified to comment on it either way as I haven't seen any reporting of this story other than the memo above from the reporter who initiated the questions.<br /><br />If you're specifically including that reporter, I haven't seen any evidence to justify your conclusions. I just reread his memo 3 times. Nowhere do I find in it anything that suggests that his PURPOSE was to embarrass Rumsfeld, the military, etc. In fact, I see much that indicates that his purpose was to help rectify a problem experienced by the troops he was embedded with. Reads to me like Rumsfeld was the means to resolve a problem, not an end for political embarrassment. <br /><br />DJ states that 'The ONLY facts here are that a reporter was fishing for self granduer, duped a soldier, and aided the enemy in the PR game.' How exactly did you draw that conclusion?<br /><br />Here is the quote from the memo which to me seems to indicate the reporters primary purpose: <br /><br />"I have been trying to get this story out for weeks- as soon as I foud out I would be on an unarmored truck- and my paper published two stories on it. But it felt good to hand it off to the national press. I believe lives are at stake with so many soldiers going across the border riding with scrap metal as protection. It may be to late for the unit I am with, but hopefully not for those who come after."<br /><br />Self aggrandizment? Sounds to me like it was more a question of self protection. <br /><br />The rest of his memo had to do with the logistics of his getting the issue raised given the rules for the meeting (and yes, he did 'backdoor' the rules and also did some self back patting on how he did it). But if he honestly perceived a major problem for the troops he was embedded with, and his motives were to highlight it to someone at a level that might actually help quickly rectify the problem, I can understand his pride in the fact that he was succesful and perhaps helped accomplish something that might actually help reduce future US injuries or even save lives. <br /><br />As far as duping the soldier? Seems to me that although he coached and perhaps empowered the soldier to ask the question, it was an issue about which many of the troops there did have a very real concern.<br /><br />If anyone wants to point out specific portions of the memo that would indicate a desire to embarrass Rumsfeld rather than to highlight a problem to him, please highlight and I'll take another look and reconsider.<br /><br />And again, I'm limited to commmenting on my take about this reporter and his motives, not how the story was treated by the general media.

 

[Scaaty]

Re: Manufactured news?

Someone send the little crybaby this picture...this wasn't exactly built in Detroit.<br />

<br />Does he want me to go over there and show him how to weld too? And as to the reporter, I would expect nothing less...little scumbag loser. It will come back to haunt him (like it isn't right now). (Pleiku Vietnam 1969- 563rd Trans group- Convoy Mechanic/gunner depending on conditions!)

 

[DJ]

Re: Manufactured news?

Lakelivin wrote,<br /><br />"DJ states that 'The ONLY facts here are that a reporter was fishing for self granduer, duped a soldier, and aided the enemy in the PR game. How exactly did you draw that conclusion?"<br /><br />The reporters editor found it necessary to apologize for his actions.<br /><br />I look for other sources of news besides ABS, CBS, NBS and CNNBS.<br /><br />It seems the reporter may have been a bit overzealous and needed to be "reeled in".<br /><br />One other fact is that he didn't have a damn clue as to what he was talking about or trying to portray. Any idiot with a computer and a telephone could have found out what the Pentagon was doing about the issue. Or, he could have looked around and seen that there allot of "armored" Humvees. That would have required leaving the safety of his accomodations. With a little gumption, he may have asked someone in charge as to why not all of them were armored. He may have got the real story. <br /><br />Case in point is that he didn't. He wanted a real grandstand story. Trouble is he didn't work for it. Another troubling thing is that half the people in this country believe the sound bite. Facts be damned. He went in with a preconceived notion of what he wanted the news to portray.<br /><br />That is "manufacturing" news. Unfortunately, I think that is also the norm, not the exception.<br /><br />There are two sides to almost every story. Here's one.<br /><br /> http://www.newsday.com/news/nationw...r,0,2659864.story?coll=sns-ap-world-headlines <br /><br />The media is broken. It is agenda driven. What happened to ferreting out facts and reporting on them instead of sensentionalizing a perceived, by agenda, problem? <br /><br />When I ask my direct reports for a breakdown on an issue, I want facts, potential solutions and a realistic timeline. Not opinions based on personal feelings.<br /><br />We tend to get things done, based on that business model.