Lund Nisswa Restoration

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lundnisswa

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Re: Lund Nisswa Restoration

OK, I need to purchase plywood but have some serious contradictions in opinions of which kind of wood to use.
If I am gonna use PT, I need to get it drying for a month at least, but many on here say dont use it if it will be in contact with Aluminum, and then some say Epoxy won't stick to it, as far as I can see the only aluminum contact would be the transom Cap.
And stainless steel fastners are not affected by PT are they?

Then the other option is exterior grade ply, making sure to seal it thoroughly (Especially the edges).
Which wood should I go with?
Marine Ply is out of question, cannot get it in N.D.
Thanks
Lund
 
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lundnisswa

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Re: Lund Nisswa Restoration

Transom wood is removed! Took all day yesterday and a few hours this morning, the outer 1 inch was easy to remove, the inner 1/4" that had fiberglass on it was not easy, alot of scraping involved here, alot of grinding still but I am going to do all the grinding later outside.

Lund
 

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lundnisswa

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Re: Lund Nisswa Restoration

Got all the equipment together and started grinding today, man I was dressed right because not a bit of glass dust got on me, I did all grinding outside too which helped alot, you know what works good to get all that dust out of the boat when your done grinding for the day, 70MPH down the highway, no dust left after that!

Anyway, my first attempt at grinding pretty much anything, used 36 grit 4.5" disk from 3M, worked good, still learning-was sort of fun actually.

Now I know why you guys say to remove those channels, they are damn near impossible to grind free of debris, smack dab in the way too, they may very well be gone by the time I get done.

I figure about 4 more days of grinding, then I will grind some more ;-).
Will I ever get to fish in this boat again?

Lund
 

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lundnisswa

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Re: Lund Nisswa Restoration

Supplies;
Here is what I ended up getting.

Fiberglass Cloth, 8 ounce, 50" wide
Milled Fibers, 1/32", used to thicken and reinforce resins.
Wood Flour.
1708 Biaxial 50" wide (+/-45)-3/4 ounce chopped strand mat backing.
Epoxy AeroMarine 300/21-Consists of two gallons of #300 resin and one gallon of #21 Non Blushing Cycloaliphatic Hardener- WITH METERING PUMPS
AeroMarine 2# Density Foam 2 Gallon Kit; Consists of 1 gallon of Part A and 1 gallon of Part B. Yields 8 cubic feet.
Bubble rollers 3inch and 6 inch.
Safety equip - Respirator, rubber gloves, goggles.
Drill mount mixer
Measuring Cups

Thanks
Lund

I will be Grinding all week.
 
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lundnisswa

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Re: Lund Nisswa Restoration

OK, 3 more gallons of epoxy, to yield a total of 6 gallons.
I agree, there is alot of area that will require it.

So as far as the cloth goes, with the material I have (6oz E-Cloth and 1708). Would the 6oz be applied first, then the next day go back over it with the 1708 biax and overlapping, or is this not the way it is done?

I know, too many questions!

Lund
 
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oops!

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Re: Lund Nisswa Restoration

re-reading your last post......


i would think......the biax would be good.....2 layers ...done
 

lundnisswa

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Re: Lund Nisswa Restoration

Ondarvr, Ooops
Thanks for responding.
I value the information you bring to the table for this forum, and have read and reread many of your posts in other projects.

Just so I understand the intent of your last post.
Was it;
(Use the 1708 in two lay ups for the stringers and leave out the 6 oz because it would be of little value since I am already using the 1708?
If so, Roger-Copy-Wilco.)

With that said, Use the 6 oz cloth elsewhere, like; on the floor. OK got it.

Where else could this 6 oz be useful since I have quite alot of it.
Sandwiched between transom halves when I adhere them together?
Other areas that do not require great strength added but more of a contour or fairing of an area.

Lund
 

ondarvr

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Re: Lund Nisswa Restoration

Lund

Your correct on the layup and the cloth will conform to odd shapes better than 1708, so if you need to cover a tricky area it may be easier to use. The center of the plywood sandwich is where the least amount of stress is, so the strength of the cloth isn't really needed, but it won't hurt anything either.

Coors

Most types of glass work well with epoxy, although using mat with it is kind of a waste of money. Types of fabric made like 1708 are the strongest, which means the layup can be lighter and achieve the same strength. Because of how the cloth and roving are made, the strands are always being bent around other strands one way or the other, they never lay flat and straight like 1708 and other stitched products. Glass is at it's best when the strands lay flat and the stress is in a straight line, it puts less stress on the resin and keeps it on the glass where it belongs, so the 1708 (and products like it) end up being stronger for the same weight.
 

lundnisswa

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Re: Lund Nisswa Restoration

This is Grinding week, so I am hitting that hard.
Gonna Grind and then grind some more.

I do have one question that has been bugging me, cutting fiberglass cloth like 1708 or whatever into the proper size pieces,
Do I need to buy a special scissors or is there a trick to your trade?

Thanks.
Lund
 

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ondarvr

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Re: Lund Nisswa Restoration

Large scissors (shears) work and so does a razor knife, for a razor knife put a 2x4 or plywood under the 1708 and a straight edge (another 2x4 will work) on top and cut into the lower 2x4, this can help hold all the glass together if it wants to fall apart or change shape.
 

erikgreen

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Re: Lund Nisswa Restoration

This is Grinding week, so I am hitting that hard. -
Gonna Grind and then grind some more.

I do have one question that has been bugging me, cutting fiberglass cloth like 1708 or whatever into the proper size pieces,
Do I need to buy a special scissors or is there a trick to your trade?

Thanks.
Lund


Nope. You can cut it with a razor blade or good scissors. Personally I have a paper shear, one of those things you used to use in school to cut the edges of bit pieces of paper straight. With a little effort it cuts biaxial glass the same way, perfectly straight with no shredding.

Sorry I didn't reply earlier, I think I've been asleep or something.

The epoxy sounds good at 6 gallons... to wet out six square feet of the 1708 you'll need to use almost a half gallon. You have to keep adding resin until the glass is translucent, with no bubbles... takes a lot.

Epoxy is a lot more forgiving than poly resin like oops uses, but it's still better to work all the layers at once if you can manage it. I'd try to avoid letting a layer harden for a day then going back to it. It's unavoidable sometimes, but it does add strength to work wet on wet. Also do surface prep.. clean the surface, sand if you haven't, and wipe it down with Acetone while wearing disposable gloves. I use some cheap cloth rags and I make sure to pretend I'm wiping butter off the dining room floor... you don't want to spread contaminants you can't see around, you want them gone.

Six ounce cloth is very light... I'd use it for covering wood to prevent epoxy cracks, and small odd jobs. The biax is going to be most of your strength. You can use either one first, I'd probably recommend the biax because it'll be easier to get into place when it's not going over older glass (sticks better). My technique for wetting out 1708 is as follows:

1) Perform the fillet on whatever joint you have... leave no voids. Try for an interior radius about the same size as a US quarter dollar... more is ok, just wasteful. You can use a piece of plastic coffee can lid for forming the radius.. I cut them into quarters, then run the rounded edge (minus the lip) along the fillet to smooth it.

2) Using a 1" foam roller wet the surface of the area to be glassed. Make sure you don't deform the fillet, because if you're working wet on wet it's still mushy.

3) Gently fold the biaxial at the same place it will be folded on the hull (usually lengthwise). Put the corner of the fold down first, then open the glass up into place. Position it carefully where you want it, then use a gentle pressure to stick it to the pre-wet surface. It should stay in place pretty well. Reposition as needed to remove large wrinkles. Most glass including biaxial can deform and stretch a bit when wet.

4) Use the same foam roller to wet the top of the biaxial. Make sure you keep the roller wet, IE go back to the tray often. You'll see the glass get wetted out in color changes... it turns darker a bit, then translucent. Make sure you add enough resin to wet out any white spots. There's a fine line between that and resin pooling in the bottom of the boat, just FYI :)

5) Repeat 3-4 for other layers of glass or other glass types.

It's possible but hard to go back after everything hardens and remove bubbles, but it's easier not to make 'em in the first place.

Once you're done adding glass, check once more for positioning problems, major bubbles, and anything else wrong, then knock off for the day. Nothing is more frustrating than doing a great glass lay-up then stepping in it or putting a knee in it trying to do something else.

You can accelerate hardening using heat lamps if it's cold... most medium epoxies take 12 hours to harden, but up to 2 days to fully cure, so be aware it won't be rock hard for a couple of days. It will be hard enough to work around.

Post your progress here :)

Erik
 

erikgreen

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Re: Lund Nisswa Restoration

Oh, I forgot to mention: For the paint roller, I use disposable 1" rollers from home depot, which I get in the paint section. The tray is a good quality metal tray that I line with the white plastic disposable tray liners. They're actually somewhat reuseable... once the epoxy hardens in them, you can peel it out in one piece most of the time. Leaves a clean tray.

I use latex disposable gloves, but I'm going to switch to a different brand... the blue ones you can get in places work well and last a while. The ones I use now I got at Harbor freight for about $8 for a box of 50 pairs.

Erik
 

lundnisswa

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Re: Lund Nisswa Restoration

Erik, Ondarvr- Thanks for the replies you guys....
I am slowly getting all the stuff I need together and the tips you just gave are great. I will take all you have at this point because this boat is going to come together.

Now I am beginning to understand the "Grinding never ends" consensus, I never seem to be done with any particular area, the more I grind the more I find to grind, plus I can only go about 3-4 hours before either I get fatigued or my air filter gets so plugged I cannot breath.

Back to those Fillets Erik, what mixture do you use to make the peanut butter? The filler material I have now is a tub of the chopped glass strands, should I have something else? And I am going to have a ton of corners to conquer.

Thanks again.
Lund.
 

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erikgreen

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Re: Lund Nisswa Restoration

Personally, I use a mix of the chopped glass with a powder filler to make it stiff (the technical term is "thixotropic"). My usual filler is wood powder/wood flour, which is basically just a very fine sawdust I buy (it's cheap) by the pound. Here's a link to the stuff:

http://www.iboats.com/Wood_Flour_Fi...5873185--**********.024122728--view_id.342107

You can also use cabosil, which is fumed silica (powdery stuff). I prefer the wood flour to the silica because it's a bit less toxic and is actually structural.. it adds to the strength of the peanut butter, where cabosil just thickens.

I typically don't measure to mix, I just mix the epoxy first, then drop in the fibers in the amount I want, then thicken to taste with wood flour.

Last night I did batches using 32 oz. of epoxy, about 2 cups of milled fibers, and about 1 cup and a half of wood flour. The mix came out a bit thinner than creamy peanut butter.

You might want to consider using a drill press or similar to mix it up.

Also, make sure you start by mixing the epoxy... don't just dump everything in and mix, you'll get uneven curing. Mix the epoxy first, making sure to scrape the sides of the container to involve all the resin. Then add in the fillers, which I like to do one at a time to ensure they get mixed in evenly.

I use my stirring stick to glob the approximate amount of fillet I need where I need it, something like 1 quarter cup glob every foot along the fillet. Then I smear it into place/form with the coffee can lid. I also use the lid to remove extra.

When I have the fillet smooth and shaped right, the last thing I do is clean up extra globs of peanut butter... if you let it harden, you'll have to grind it off later.

Erik

PS: I wish it was that sunny outdoors here :)
 

lundnisswa

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Re: Lund Nisswa Restoration

Plywood dilemma;

Choice #1.
I have already purchased all the plywood for the project, I felt I settled for something since I could not get Marine grade and the PT was so wet, what I got was "Exterior A/C grade". $40.00 per sheet 3/4" - $33.00 for 1/2".

Choice #2
Well today I found a pile of super dry 5/8" PT, it is PT7 grade C on both sides so there are alot of knots and voids I suppose, $33.00 - 5/8" only.

Choice #3
Since some of you have mentioned using it I also looked at the Cabinet Grade Plywood, and I was suprised to see that the label actually says for Exterior/Interior use- Beautiful stuff Birch A/A grade both sides, prices were close to that of Marine Grade. 3/4"-9 plies $69.00 and 1/2"- 6 plies $49.00


What would your pick be?

Lund

P.S.
My fishing buddy who has been very little help at all in this project says I over engineer everything, I say I am just trying to make the right decisions.
 
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lundnisswa

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Re: Lund Nisswa Restoration

Plywood Dilemma is over, found a way to get the Marine grade delivered up here, so that will make me feel better anyway.

In my particular project I could not salvage any stringer material for a rough template.
So Cutting templates for 12' stringers is an aggravating task, you have two different angles to deal with, the curve of the hull, and the slope of the deck.
But I got it with the help of lots of cardboard and tape, the boards running across represent the level of the decking.

On weather hold for grinding still have lots of areas that need to be ground.

Lund
 

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lundnisswa

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Re: Lund Nisswa Restoration

I had been keeping a running tally of expenses.


Had to have Supplies;
Marine grade Plywood 6 sheets
Stringer wood (2400 series #1 Grade Douglas Fir) 2ea 2X10 / 2ea 2x6
Epoxy Resin, thickeners etc
Urethane Foam
Fiberglass Cloth (1708 and 6oz Cloth)
Grinders (4.5" 2ea)
Safety Equip (Masks/goggles/throw away white suits/rubber gloves)
3M 5200
Thru-Hull Fittings
MEK
Rollers/Trays/Scissors/Mixers/

Total; $1485.00

Other stuff I did not need but decided to replace;
Seats (3ea)
Misc Stainless hardware
Hatches Access (4ea livewell and dry storage)
Custom boat registration lettering

Total; $470

Grand total of $1955.00 so far.

Lund
 

lundnisswa

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Re: Lund Nisswa Restoration

Stringers are fitted, embarrassed to say that it took me two days to get those suckers in there level.
There are a ton of factors to deal with when fitting these, the thing that got me the worst was the dimensional lumber was cupped, and I had no extra width to cut it square. If there is a next time I do this I just may go the plywood route.

I want to start waterproofing by applying Epoxy to these cut stringers, do I thin it or not? How many coats, within a certain time period or not?

So in your guy's experience, a quality wood flour/mixed with epoxy-resin to a peanut butter consisitency will provide a quality "Stick" to the floor?
How about chopped strand glass, will that do anything for the peanut butter?


Now for some good weather so I can grind some more.

Next thing is to get the three bulkhead templates made.

Am ready to Rock-N-Roll as soon as the Marine plywood gets here next week, Hope it is Dry.

Have all the fiberglassing materials I believe is needed, I suppose I should practice some layups on scrap wood, since I have never done this, could practice those fillets too if I build a Mock-up.

Lund.
 

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lundnisswa

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Re: Lund Nisswa Restoration

Finally removed the last of the rotted wood from the boat.

Now that the Stringers are cut and level, side lockers were no longer needed as the only reference for the floor level, so now that is removed as well, one side was rotten, other was not, needed them out to gain access to the side of the hull, as the floor goes under there and gets glassed to the hull sides.

Now for the Grinding, just have to grind until happy with it I guess and then she is ready for the reassemble process.

The tear apart took a month of working on it to some degree almost every day, what I didn't know when I began was that everything would come out, so I was slowly peeling the Banana.

Took alot of pictures along the way, and wrote down a ton of measurements for reference.


Lund
 

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lundnisswa

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Re: Lund Nisswa Restoration

Dang it,
I ground a hole through the hull today!

It is right on the top of a strake, I was cleaning up the bedding area for the stringers and bulkheads when it happened, about the size of a pencils lead.
How would you fix this?

Lund
 

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