Just don't matter to most here, but

[neumanns]

Re: Just don't matter to most here, but

After a little reasearch this is what I come up with. In 2002 the federal goverments tax reciepts were $1,853,173,000,000 The Estimated 2004 US population is 293,027,571 or according to the math each person is responsable for $6,324 of the national debt.

 

[12Footer]

Re: Just don't matter to most here, but

Originally posted by Boomyal:<br /> hopefully there will be a big change, but you better do your homework on the VAT. It is common in Europe and one of the most insidious taxes ever conceived. There is no way to ever calculate how much of the purchase price is actually tax. It all depends on how many hands touch the product.<br /><br />The two options that make more sense are either a national sales tax or a flat income tax. Either way, the IRS is either greatly reduced or eliminated and Congress would have a much more difficult time social engineering using taxes.<br /><br />One thing for sure, you can count on the Libs fighting a change tooth and nail.

Agreed, but even a V.A.T. is a massive improvement over the archaic system imposed upon us us now. The trick is to get one passed-thru the bowels of legislation, with the obligatory parasite-bills tacked-on....Built-in, made-to-order loopholes. We all know that such changes to the original package are the norm,rather than the exception.<br />Right now, I'd take iether. But would insist it be a singular law, without cooties.

 

[KaGee]

Re: Just don't matter to most here, but

Originally posted by snapperbait:<br /> ... Meanwhile, the red states on the map say..... "Hey! Let's cuts taxes while our republican controled Congress has absolutely no budget and they're spending like theres no tomorrow"... <br />

Guess you forgot Snapper that it was a democratic led congress that passed legislation automatically raising budgets of most major programs by 15% a year.<br /><br />Let me high jack the thread slightly by asking... Snapper, RetNav and anyone else concerned...a question. The undertone of those who bring up this subject is 1)Tax cuts for the "rich", 2)The war w/Iraq 3)A spend-thrift congress are driving our country to the poor house. So, you are in charge now, what programs do YOU cut and what else would you do to balance our budget and start paying down the national debt?

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Just don't matter to most here, but

hello<br /> well we were warned of this back in august and again in october. the funny thing is if you reserach who is buying the debt bonds its the middle east,china and japan, they are getting rich off the intrest payments . the other funny thing is anyone who sai something was quietly removed from the administration or shifted to another position. seems any who said the emporer has no clothes gets the boot . so now our children and grand children will be saddled with the excesses of the past 4 years. now the war drums are beating again . cant wait to fight Iran. heck we should go ahead and bash the north koreans as well. heck lets take on everybody that does not have a two party democracy .<br /> we are in the wrong country fighting ghosts. and the cost is sofarabove what the projections were its unreal. but as the mission is "accomplished" maybe we can go fight someplace else. but going back to the deficet its going to come directly out of your paychecks. in my case as my costs go upsodoes my labor rate.some are not as lucky. as a tetired sailor my health insurance is paid. however I am having to sue the VA to get my benifits cause they have no money. getting your disability benefits once your retired is like picking hens teeth. lots of promises when your in but try to collect when your out.<br /> would have been cheaper to give every Iraqi 100K and let them be. especially since no iraqis were connected with anything done here. its all suads and jordainians. but in a rush to do something even if its wrong to appease the public we are all going to pay as well as our childrens children, lets see what happens by 2008

 

[RetNav]

Re: Just don't matter to most here, but

I appreciate all of the input. Contrary to some opinion this is not a troll. I am trying to find out if anyone else agrees with me that the national debt is like a big stone around the neck of every person alive and those to be born for some time to come. From the responses it is apparent that there is no agreement. Some believe it is no problem others see major problems.<br />.<br />rodbolt, being a retired sailor myself and having experienced the same promise/problems with the health system I couldn't agree with you more. As long as you are in the service you are a first class citizen, immediately upon retirement, among the finest print is a statement "you are now a second class citizen". At least that is the treatment one receives.

 

[one more cast]

Re: Just don't matter to most here, but

And thanks to Elmer Fudge, and lundboat (and anyone else I missed)for answering my question.

 

[RetNav]

Re: Just don't matter to most here, but

neumans, not to be disagreeable but the figures I found show a much larger amount i.e.:<br />U.S. NATIONAL DEBT CLOCK <br />The Outstanding Public Debt as of 20 Nov 2004 at 01:13:55 PM GMT is:<br /> <br /> $7,450,143,330,119.27<br /><br />The estimated population of the United States is 294,846,907<br />so each citizen's share of this debt is $25,267.86.

 

[neumanns]

Re: Just don't matter to most here, but

REt, my error...what I was figuring was each individuals share of the annual budjet.<br /><br />EDIT:<br />The goverment owes $25,267 for every $6,324 of annual income or about Four times there annual income. The fact is if you or I went to the banks with these numbers and had job stability they would still give us an auto loan...The boat loan may be out at this time though.

 

[f_inscreenname]

Re: Just don't matter to most here, but

Just a thought. No dept, no "T" bills, no "T" bills ...you can fill in the rest.<br />"$3.1 million to convert a ferry boat into a crab restaurant in Baltimore."<br />hey we need that crab boat restaurant if not we would had to walk a whole block to the next crab place.

 

[snapperbait]

Re: Just don't matter to most here, but

So, you are in charge now, what programs do YOU cut and what else would you do to balance our budget and start paying down the national debt?

Ok KaGee.. Here's a few..<br />#1 Elected officials take a serious pay cut.. <br />#2 Flat tax.. Maybe 10%, for example.. (everyone pays same-same), Or a National Sales tax... I believe either could work..<br />#3 Most, but not all, of the Welfare program goes bye-bye.. Replaced by Workfare, and done in a way as to turn a financial profit to support what would be left of Welfare (for those truly in need)...<br />#4 A real balanced budget amendment..<br /><br />Got more but gotta run.. My fiscal conservative side comming out.

 

[RetNav]

Re: Just don't matter to most here, but

KaGee,<br /> I haven't looked for much, but here is a start:<br />Pork Barrell Spending - Private Concerns<br /><br /><br /> $3.1 million to convert a ferry boat into a crab restaurant in Baltimore. <br /> $6.4 million for a Bavarian ski resort in Kellogg, Idaho. <br /> $13 million to repair a privately owned dam in South Carolina. <br /> $4.3 million for a privately owned museum in Johnstown, Pennsylvania. <br /> $11 million for a private pleasure boat harbor in Cleveland. <br /> $6 million to repair tracks owned by the Soo Railroad Line. <br /> $320,000 to purchase President McKinley's mother-in-law's house. Funds to rehabilitate the South Carolina mansion of Charles Pickney, a Framer of the Constitution, even though the house was built after he died. <br /> $2.7 million for a catfish farm in Arkansas. <br /> $3 million for private parking garages in Chicago. <br /> $500,000 to build a replica of the Great Pyramid of Egypt in Indiana. <br /> $850,000 for a bicycle path in Macomb County, Michigan. <br /> $10 million for an access ramp in a privately owned stadium in Milwaukee. <br /> $1.8 million for an engineering study to convert Biscayne Boulevard in Miami into an "Exotic Garden." <br /> $13 million for an industrial theme park in Pennsylvania. <br /> $500,000 for a museum to honor former Secretary of State Cordell Hull. <br /> $33 million to pump sand onto the private beaches of Miami hotels. <br />Total: $109,470,000

 

[RetNav]

Re: Just don't matter to most here, but

KaGee,<br /> Here are some more":<br /><br />Pork Barrel Spending - The Absurd<br /><br /><br /> $107,000 to study the sex life of the Japanese quail. <br /> $1.2 million to study the breeding habits of the woodchuck. <br /> $150,000 to study the Hatfield-McCoy feud. <br /> $84,000 to find out why people fall in love. <br /> $1 million to study why people don't ride bikes to work. <br /> $19 million to examine gas emissions from cow flatulence. <br /> $144,000 to see if pigeons follow human economic laws. <br /> Funds to study the cause of rudeness on tennis courts and examine smiling patterns in bowling alleys. <br /> $219,000 to teach college students how to watch television. <br /> $2 million to construct an ancient Hawaiian canoe. <br /> $20 million for a demonstration project to build wooden bridges. <br /> $160,000 to study if you can hex an opponent by drawing an X on his chest. <br /> $800,000 for a restroom on Mt. McKinley. <br /> $100,000 to study how to avoid falling spacecraft. <br /> $16,000 to study the operation of the komungo, a Korean stringed instrument. <br /> $1 million to preserve a sewer in Trenton, NJ, as a historic monument. <br /> $6,000 for a document on Worcestershire sauce. <br /> $10,000 to study the effect of naval communications on a bull's potency. <br /> $100,000 to research soybean-based ink. <br /> $1 million for a Seafood Consumer Center. <br /> $57,000 spent by the Executive Branch for gold-embossed playing cards on Air Force Two. <br />Total: $ 45,980,000

 

[RetNav]

Re: Just don't matter to most here, but

f_inscreenname,<br /> man you crack me up..<br /><br /> Just found an interesting read by Sen J McCain. I won't C&P the whole thing, just the link:<br /> http://mccain.senate.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=Newscenter.ViewPressRelease&Content_id=1220

 

[KaGee]

Re: Just don't matter to most here, but

Mr. Snapper,<br />I got no issue with any of your suggestions. Only one problem... you could never get elected to dog catcher with that agenda and if you already were in office and proposed these things, you'd be run outta town faster than Newt Gingrich.<br /><br />RetNav,<br /><br />Your point is a valid one too, but 45 mil is not even a ****le on an ant's butt in the yearly budget. f_in's little joke there is funny only because it's soooo true. Go and ask all those folks about those projects, they were all absolutely necessary. I'll bet if we do some digging, Arizona got some pork too. Mr. McCain is not pure as the wind driven snow.<br /><br />Here's my point, though everything you all have briefly discussed are valid points, the bulk of the federal spending is military/defense, Social Security, Medicare and the bureaucracy itself. Just try and discuss cutting back any of those and see where it gets you. Well, some folks won't have a problem cutting back our military. But just discussing the rest will get you tarred and feathered and sent out of town on a rail. <br />The national debt is what it is, brought about by democrat and republican alike in response to the greedy wants and desires of the American electorate.

 

[12Footer]

Re: Just don't matter to most here, but

See? All that math just makes my head hurt. Why can't they just simplify the system so that everyone is extorted equally?

 

[cmyers_uk]

Re: Just don't matter to most here, but

but you better do your homework on the VAT. It is common in Europe and one of the most insidious taxes ever conceived. There is no way to ever calculate how much of the purchase price is actually tax. It all depends on how many hands touch the product.

There is nothing strange about VAT its 17.5% on a purchase so you know exactly how much of the puchase price is tax. Any invoice has to show purchase price , VAT and total. Its supposed to be a good tax as its not on what is classed as essential items like certain foods but is on luxury items.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Just don't matter to most here, but

hey them playing cards aint pork. never know when ya might need a late night game and lord knows wally world cards aint good enough

 

[Dunaruna]

Re: Just don't matter to most here, but

Boomyal, I respectfully disagree with you assesment of VAT (AKA GST "goods & services tax").<br /><br />As a small business owner I deal with VAT everyday and its not that difficult to handle. As Chris said - its a user pay system which is by far the fairest way.<br /><br />Aldo

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Just don't matter to most here, but

Originally posted by Chris Myers:<br />

but you better do your homework on the VAT. It is common in Europe and one of the most insidious taxes ever conceived. There is no way to ever calculate how much of the purchase price is actually tax. It all depends on how many hands touch the product.

There is nothing strange about VAT its 17.5% on a purchase so you know exactly how much of the puchase price is tax. Any invoice has to show purchase price , VAT and total. Its supposed to be a good tax as its not on what is classed as essential items like certain foods but is on luxury items.

Chris, what you have described is a sales tax not a VAT(value added tax). A VAT is a tax that is added to the product at each stage of manufacture and distribution. Only the portion of the tax that is applied at the time of sale, to the end user, is broken out and visible. <br /><br />Without trying to specify a VAT tax rate, lets say you make a product. You have to buy components and materials from three different suppliers. Each supplier applies the tax to his selling price.<br /><br />Then you assemble the product and maybe sell it to another manufacturer who incorporates into his product. You then add the tax to the price you sell it for.<br /><br />The final manufacturer sells the product into the distribution chain, having added the VAT to his selling price. Keep in mind that some products will go thru several layers of distributon, each adding the VAT along the way.<br /><br />Now when I, the end user, buys the product, the final seller ads the VAT at that point. <br /><br />As I said, it is an absolutely insidious tax that is applied by every hand that touches any part of the product. You will never be able to calculate the exact amount of tax that you are paying.<br /><br />There is no way to subtract out the tax on items that are exported, so it even makes our exports more expensive for foreigners to purchase.<br /><br />Read this link.<br /><br /> http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/v1/valueadd.asp

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Just don't matter to most here, but

Did ya read my link, DR. It may mean something different Down Under.<br /><br />I also might add that the VAT was what Hillary planned on financing her grand national health care scheme with. She knew that it was a hidden tax that would be extremely difficult to scrutinize. And BTB, she did not plan on doing away with income tax, either.<br /><br />A national sales tax, which I consider a good idea, is simply added on at the point of retail. It is up front, easy to see, difficult to secretly manipulate and is very easy to exclude certain types of products and services that are deemed to be tax free. But I might add, that it would never fly here unless the income tax and the IRS were done away with.