It's gone too far.

[ob]

Re: It's gone too far.

I think you are just a few miles in left field off of the topic and are reading way too far into your defense of the teacher.Your above post clearly states that you felt that the teacher excersized bad judgement and the follow that statement in the same sentence that under the circumstances the teacher did ,nothing wrong.If I told my kid that they used bad judgement ,I certainly wouldn't follow it up by telling them that they did nothing wrong.

 

[Fishbusters]

Re: It's gone too far.

I still say the teacher did nothing wrong. Where the bad judgment comes in is the fact that any educated person would have realized that this would happen and should have avoided it in otherwords bad judgment. It still does not mean the teacher was wrong. If your child tried to jump off the roof because they thought a towel tied around thier neck could make them fly is it bad judgement? Yes is it wrong? No because children are like that.<br />I hope this clears it up as supper is ready and I am going to eat.

 

[ebbtide176]

Re: It's gone too far.

did i mention any teacher in a public school is worthy of my praise, i couldn't do it - no way, nada chance. i will check with my little teacher to get her view as soon as i get home and offer another insider opinion...<br /><br />i like PFB's comment <br />"I want everyone to know I feel it was very bad judgment on the teachers part to wear that button but under the circumstances I can see nothing wrong."<br /><br />- don't worry man, i would not want a teacher fired on one button discrepancy... maybe a good buttgnawing though<br /><br />i do however agree to disagree with the meaning of a "He's Not My President" button. to me, that is as blatant anti-American as can be. i feel it is equal to claiming we have no president, leader, commander-in-chief, and his position is invalid. isn't that equal to treason? i dunno for sure, but it seems much worse than a "GW bites" button would be...<br /><br />check back later

 

[JB]

Re: It's gone too far.

What's going on here?<br /><br />Is all this negative energy just a symptom of late winter?<br /><br />Enough of what everyone is against, complaints about what others are against, complaints about what others think they think!<br /><br />Tell me what you are FOR!

 

[ebbtide176]

Re: It's gone too far.

i'm for the point PFB made about teachers being an example to their students, but should not be the only example. and i believe it is up to parents to direct children with hard decisions on what to believe, especially when it comes to politics & religion.<br /><br />and i'm for going to dinner when its time to eat

 

[ob]

Re: It's gone too far.

I am for teachers adhering to the curriculum and not wearing anti administration pins in the classroom that would tend to muster discussion and time away from the class subject.But I thought I already said that before I was implicated as wanting to nuke everyone in the middle east and burn Bob Marley albums at a gay bashing convention.

 

[snapperbait]

Re: It's gone too far.

I'm for Teachers and Administrators who are Authority Figures first, Educators second, and Examples third...<br /> <br />I'm for a little corporal punishment for those little smart a$$ brats who really need it (you know the one's)... Then Parents who WILL follow up with some more punishment at home.... A little butt paddling never hurt anybody and I'm willing to bet that it did some of us some good...(I'll probably get flamed for that remark)<br /><br />I'm for Physical Ed in school... K-12... Every day... Not talking recess either...<br /><br />I'm for Music, Metal/Wood/Auto shop, Art, Drafting, Home economics and all the other "electives" that they keep cutting out from the budget...<br /><br />I'm for leaving the school grounds open so kids can have somewhere to play a game of football, baseball, basketball, or just hang out on the monkey bars after schools over... When I was a school age kid in the late 70's-80's, we had a ball game of some sorts going on just about every day after school in our elementray schools field with no "adult supervision" needed... There rebuilding a school up the road from me that I attended and now the place has more fences and bars than a prison... It's a damn shame...<br /><br />And ya'll wonder why kids today are so goofy in the head...

 

[ob]

Re: It's gone too far.

I agree Snapperbait.

 

[ebbtide176]

Re: It's gone too far.

whew! no rebuttal to the pin's words yet!<br />(i hope yall get some humor out of this)<br />on my way home, i was working out a plan. you know, you gotta approach those teacher types with a well thought out idea, cross those tees and dot the eyes, you know what i mean - no hafmast ideas... then it dawned on me, what is the prob?<br />- a button with "He's Not My President" on it.<br /><br />Who? Bush. Where? uhhhh, by implication. Hmmmm<br /><br />me thinks i won't bring it up, you know those teacher types are very observant <br /><br />and my apologies to any it caused undue stress to.

 

[plywoody]

Re: It's gone too far.

Man, it is wonderful to see a few other brave souls that venture into the valley of the right. I was afraid I was the only one! Not that it bothers me, particularly, but it is good to see some other brave souls.<br /><br />However, I do think this is indeed kind of a touchy topic, and it depends on the circumstances, and the age group of the kids involved. I think there is nothing better to teach our older children in the proper format the value of holding, and defending their respective opinions. Debate is a wonderful thing. But it is a tricky, and dangerous position for a teacher to take a specific controversial political stance, especially to younger children.<br /><br />Religion is another difficult area. I personally think it would be wonderful for the older students to learn about all sorts of world religions and their history, including, but not limited to, the Christian religion. It is also a minefield that would take a talented teacher to weave their way thru.<br /><br />As far as teaching "the facts", now when exactly did that start? It has not, and will not ever happen, as there are way too few areas of study that have established "facts"<br /><br />I recall my daughter having one or another arguments with her teachers over environmentalism, for example. As a person directly involved in forestry and biodiversity management, I taught my children environmental care from a scientific, balanced point of view. The teachers tend to teach it from an emotional non scientific point of view. If it "looks" bad it must "be" bad. It ain't necessarily so, and the industry group I was involved in had produced a slide show showing the care that so many (but not all) in the forest industry take with the environment. I offered, and did give our slide presentation to the local high school, and the teacher seemed impressed.<br /><br />At any rate, I think it a dangerous thing for teachers to publically espouse controversial personal opinions in almost anything, especially politics or religion. For a gifted teacher, it might well be an outstanding learning opportunity, but it is fraught with danger and has to be handled carefully. If I had to make a single policy that fits all, I'd tell the teacher to leave the button home.

 

[DJ]

Re: It's gone too far.

Plywoody,<br /><br />I certainly do appreciate your opinions. It just so happens, on this one-we agree. In some areas. That's the beauty of debate.<br /><br />A teacher is a leader, that is true. However, I believe we have lost the teachers ability to be "leaders". The teacher has an almost impossible task of trying to teach values that are non existant in the home.<br /><br />Let me give you an example. <br /><br />I entered an elevator today with a bunch of recruits from a huge corporation. Their teacher was in the lobby giving them last minute instructions for the night homework. The last thing the teacher heard was: &^%$ you!<br /><br />When I asked to get off at my floor, I heard the same thing. The men (term loosly inferred) were dressed like playboys and the women like &^%$.<br /><br />I'm no prude, but the whole situation gave me heartburn.<br /><br />I do fear that our competitive edge, as a country and society is lost, by people just following their "organs" through life.<br /><br />Our children have been taught: "america bad", disifranchised (socialism and dictatorship) countries-good". Those beliefs are from the "60's" and those are the school "administrators" of today.

 

[12Footer]

Re: It's gone too far.

When I was in kindergarden, I was taught the Lord's Prayer.<br />When I was in 2nd grade, I was taught the "Pledge of allegiance" <br />when I was in 3rd grade, I learned the Star Spangled Banner".<br />When I was in 4th grade, I learned to "Duck and cover"....<br />Everything I learned after that is moot!

 

[Fishbusters]

Re: It's gone too far.

Hey OB I was not suggesting you were for or agianst anything I was pointing out that if you look at it there are a lot more things that happen to be displayed at schools than just one teacher with a button. Personally I dislike the hell out of the Bob Marley poster the man looks like he has smoked a couple joints before he posed for the picture. <br />To everyone: My point is however you view a teacher we are entitled to our own views and personally I think society feels that because (in many cases at the high school level here) we have your students for 90 days 90min a day or 8100 MIN out of thier entire lives that we will be the example your child will follow. Someone also mentioned following the curriculum which I agree with as do most teachers but when we have to spend half our time dealing with little Johny that is so high he could have saved the space shuttle astronauts, trying to get the computer to work so we can take attendance, dealing with little Sue who calls use stupid MFs and when we send her to the office she gets sent back with a note from the principal and the candy she got while there in her mouth it is kind of hard to spend much time trying to teach the rest of the class who are only in school because they have to come. BTW the top reasons for attending school are as folows in no particular order. I am too young to drop out. The court ordered it as part of my probation. Hell all my customers are here. If i don't come to school I miss out on breakfast and lunch. and I am sure I could think of a few more. Now I am not gonna say anyone slammed teachers as a whole or teaching here but I get a little annoyed when people jump a teacher for what amounts to a bad judgment call in forgeting that they were wearing a pin that many will take offense to on thier jacket. Even if this teacher knew it was on the jacket I still think it is small stuff compaired to what goes on in schools daily. Maybe instead of bashing the teacher for having an opinion although not a popular one we should be trying to see if we can do anything to make thier job easier. <br />Another thing president bashing has been around in one form or another for a long time and this is not the first time I have seen or heard of this type of button. In fact i think this button/bumper sticker came out way before GW but became a popular thing to have in GW's era not because of recent events but just after the election with the flap in Florida some people were in major doubt as to who won the election and when it was announced that the winner was GW I saw a lot of those buttons and some bumper stickers come up saying the same thing. I even recall people saying he is not my president back then and no one realy thought anything of it. <br />Now if you take all that I have said as a teacher and put it to one side for a minute and read this you will find out my opinion is about the same as yours. Going out of teacher mode and putting my personal opinion into play I don't agree with what the button said and would have had to have a few words with anyone who I work with that was wearing it letting them know I did not appreciate it although they are entitled to thier own opinion. Personally I feel we should all support the president whomever he is from the time he wins the election to the time he leaves office. We don't have to agree with him but he is the man we as the Americian public elected to run this country.

 

[ob]

Re: It's gone too far.

PFB,I hold no hard feelings what so ever.There seems to be so many issues at hand that the country and its people are trying to digest, that at times it can become overwhelming to the average "Joe."I hold the utmost respect for teachers ,particularly in this day and age and have steered my children to show as much respect and dicipline in the classroom as they would at home.Trouble is for you guys is that more parents don't instill the same.I personally don't care for Bob Marleys music but don't have a problem with who he is.I just wish he'd wash his hair more often and cut those snarly mats. <br />Also I feel the reason that many,including myself ,have little patience with presidential and administration bashing is because of the delicate situation of the country, and feel that a unified bond is just what is needed in whatever direction that us diplomatic by nature and compasionate people decide is the right path.People can say what they may about how GW is handling the countries affairs but in all honesty this man has had an overwhelming burden to bare since taking office.I sometimes wonder whether 911 would have happened had the election gone the other way.Not to imply that Bush or the current administration played a role,but rather if middle east sentiment suddenly felt compelled to rebel against an administration that they feared would not serve their interests.<br />Oh well,I've rambled long enough.Again,I hold no animosities toward this debate and will participate in others when the irresistible urge arises.

 

[plywoody]

Re: It's gone too far.

Hey, ob, I appreciate the debate as well. Criticism comes with the territory, and as Harry Truman used to say, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.<br /><br />As far as whether 9-11 would have happened, it seems to me pretty clear that it certainly would have happened. That one was planned long before the election, and there were other foiled attempts even before the election.<br /><br />How Gore would have handled it? It's anyone's guess, I suppose. I am no big Gore fan, but I suspect the intitial reaction would have been something similar in routing the Taliban and attacking with full strength the known hideouts of OBL. I don't think the country would have allowed any different response, nor should it have.<br /><br />Beyond that it is pure speculation, of course. You need the support of congress and the American people to launch such an initial strike, and we certainly had that.<br /><br />One of the things that bother me in the debate was a criticism of Clinton for not going after Bin Laden with more force after the Cole--but while he had some support for the surgical strikes he attempted, he certainly did not have congressional support, nor the support of the American people, for anything beyond that. Not that he was actively trying to generate support, necessarily, but the reaction we took was a consensus reaction among all parties.<br /><br />But I certainly do not hold the opinion that somehow Gore would have dropped the ball on this. He is a seasoned professional in the realm of foreign policy. He may be a dull candidate that does not inspire much in the way of passion, one way or another, but he is competent.

 

[SCO]

Re: It's gone too far.

I agree with a lot you say here Ply, but think the real difference is the way Bush continues to proceed with what he knows to be right in the face of massive criticism. I think Gore in this situation would cave, but that's just a personal opinion, I don't really know, and I acknowledge that I could be way wrong. Another opinion is that this would not have played out this way, because the Democrats/ hollywood etc would have been supportive of Gore were he trying to do what he knew to be right in confronting Saddam.

 

[dkondelik]

Re: It's gone too far.

Plywoody,<br /><br />2 posts back. we ended up in the same camp. Strange world!<br /><br />You're a "Biology" sort? Cool. I love clear cuts! Since the "tree huggers" have stopped them around here, MANY species are nearly extinct. These species (in particular the delicious Ruffed Grouse) need the scrub and brush that comes into open areas. This is there habitat. Without it, they are GONE! Silly tree huggers are driving species extinct and are too thick to realize it.<br /><br />Wudda -U think?<br /><br />By the Way, The Swastika? Do a little looking. This AINT a Hitler invention. <br />Do you know any Buddists?<br />The Swastica goes WAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYY back! Has nuthin to do with hate. <br />Hitler stole it, Sure. But who knows, the statement that the Swastica is a symbol of hate is sure to be irritating and offensive to any Buddist that may visit this site.<br /><br />DANG! This is fun!<br />Next?

 

[Kenneth Brown]

Re: It's gone too far.

I would assume that most see the confedarate flaga s a hate symbol also. Do you realize that the KKK also carries the American flag? Does this make it a hate symbol?

 

[Fishbusters]

Re: It's gone too far.

Personal opinion that you need to think about the reason I am saying what I am saying. I hope it is clear where I stand towards the group in question but you can't deny thier patriotism however misguided thier other agendas may be.<br />Kenneth not to support the KKK I hate everything they stand for but at least they carry Americian flags along with thier other symbols. Many other groups would and do put thier flag or symbol above all else and do not display any form of sentiment towards being an americian group whether we are actually proud of the group or not.<br />Damn I hate that I actually had to say anything good about the KKK.

 

[plywoody]

Re: It's gone too far.

Yep, clearcuts are indeed good in some areas. And prescribed burns. Many species of trees have cones that do not release the seeds unless exposed to extreme heat.<br />And some species it is best to selectively cut from time to time and allow room for new growth. Eastern White Pine, for example, need shaded areas for new growth--a white pine clearcut will not produce a new white pine forest typically.<br />While it is certainly not an exact science, it is definitely an improving science.<br />Here in the northwest, we overcut for years and years, apparently under the theory that it is so vast an area how could you possibly overcut it? You can. British Columbia is probably worse, if that is possible. Too large of clearcuts exposed too much erosion, too little thought to crossing creeks and rivers in logging operations, etc etc.<br />It has all, for the most part, changed, although there are many who wish we would go back to the old ways (including the new Bush initiative, which is fundamentally flawed).<br />It is, of course, complex. On the one hand, a forest is a vibrant ecosystem, and it is impossible to turn it into a museum, as some would like, just as it is not simply a factory for growing fiber for industry, as others argue.