Interesting Situation...

ZmOz

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Re: Interesting Situation...

Originally posted by 90skichallenger:<br />The facts are simple theamerican indian was and still is screwed by the whiteman.
Notice the tense there - WAS. There is NO indian alive that is currently being "screwed by the white man". Yes, what happened to them was bad. Nobody denies that. It didn't happen to YOU or any other indian alive. We came in and conquered. All of your ancestors were lucky to keep their lives. That isn't how it normally works. You may not be receiving handouts, but you can't deny that a very high percentage of indians in america today ARE. Also consider that if we hadn't come here, you and every other indian would still be running around half naked eating only things you could find in the woods...<br /><br />I'm sure you'll consider what I just said racist, but it's true...
 

ZmOz

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Re: Interesting Situation...

Originally posted by Drowned Rat:<br />These people are Americans, the SAME as you and I.
No, they're not, and that's the point of this thread. If you don't like what I say, don't read it. I'm free to post my opinion here just the same as you are to yours.
 

Drowned Rat

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Re: Interesting Situation...

Are you people out of your minds!! How friggin rude and closed minded can you possibly be. These people are Americans, the SAME as you and I. Show some d**n respect! Your words say alot about your character people, and I for one am not at all impressed. I would hope that you could pause for just a tiny minute and think about what you are saying before you open your mouth, and take a long hard look in the closest mirror.<br /><br />Unbelievable.
 
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DJ

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Re: Interesting Situation...

Nobody, especially me, has said anything about condemning an entire population or race.<br /><br />However, the preponderence of evidence of behavior points one way.<br /><br />I'm all for a hand up, just tired of the hand out. That applies to EVERYBODY, not just Native Americans.<br /><br />I can look in the mirror all day long and not have a problem. You do not know me, thus you shouldn't judge me. You have no right.<br /><br />I am one person with one opinion formed of experience(s).
 

Drowned Rat

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Re: Interesting Situation...

I'm not the one doing the judging here. Just take a look at some of the posts in this thread. My last post was not directed at everyone who has commented here. But some of them... Wow!
 
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DJ

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Re: Interesting Situation...

Judgment and opinion are not the same.<br /><br />I'll help anybody until they slap me in the face for it.<br /><br />If all say they are free and clear of opinions, choices and prejudices, they are lying to themselves. I like honesty.
 

Drowned Rat

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Re: Interesting Situation...

I form my opinions on individuals, not groups. If you knew me, you would know that's true.
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Interesting Situation...

judg·ment also judge·ment<br /> <br />The act or process of judging; the formation of an opinion after consideration or deliberation<br /><br />o·pin·ion <br />n. <br />A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof<br /><br />A judgment based on special knowledge and given by an expert<br /><br />A judgment or estimation of the merit of a person or thing
 

wilkin250r

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Re: Interesting Situation...

Originally posted by 90skichallenger:<br /> The facts are simple theamerican indian was and still is screwed by the whiteman.
I'm fairly open minded. I'll agree to "was", but I certainly don't see the "still is". Give me an example.
 

dolluper

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Re: Interesting Situation...

I don't believe I read the whole post but I did<br />I say close the casino and open up next week with a different management
 
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DJ

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Re: Interesting Situation...

I form my opinions on individuals, not groups. If you knew me, you would know that's true.<br />
Same here.<br /><br />Unfortunately, our government does not allow us that luxury when it comes to how and where our money is spent.<br /><br />As I said, I'll help anyone until they bite me. <br /><br />I've been bitten-badly.<br /><br />I form my opinions on experience, not the latest PC fad or what someone thinks my opinion should be.
 

rodbolt

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Re: Interesting Situation...

yes my previous post was pure sarcasm.<br /> but it did describe the feelings of most white america in the 1800's. I agree with most that a treaty is a treaty and cant be broken for convience or land for gold,cattle or oil. but it was done many times. sometimes with a goal sometimes not. sometimes instead of targeting a small band of rouge indians that could not abide by the treaty the entire tribe was massacered and if any survivors were placed on a different reservation. especially if the one they were on had gold or other valuable minerals. so mostly aa deal is a deal. that deal does not include fishing with modern technology while ignoring game laws. it should cover fishing with the methods at the time of the treaty with no game laws unless the tribal council and the BIA renegotiate the treaty.<br /> having worked with many indians from all over I have found,like the rest of the public, some are very industrious and hard working and others not worth the time to wake them up to shoot them. some are very honest and some will steal your hubcaps at 35MPH.<br /> jtexas<br /> I tend to agree with most your last post. we enable them to fail. its a culture thing with them. seems sometimes they are to poor to do anything but drink. its a vicious cycle and I dont know how or if we can break it.<br /> but its mostly all swept under the rug. most the indians I know are good people. I worked with a full blood cree in manteo. nice guy, big as heck about 6'5 and 340 pounds or so. however he had a serious drinking problem, was slow as molasses and rarly showed up sober and drank all day. In the mid 80's I was working with and for an Apache running fences for the AT&SF rialway outside of Rio-vista TX I was the only white. was him ,me and about 14 mexicans. his crew could run about 3 miles of fence a day. he paid 4.50 an hour,breakfast and lunch and transportation to the site. the other crew was from a govt program for minority workers. they could not make a mile a day and quite a few miles the Apache's crew had to redo. the govt crew could not be fired nor admonished by the foreman. the apache crew knew that to many cooler breaks or potty breaks and you would not be there tomorrow.
 

Mr.Ladyfish

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Re: Interesting Situation...

I don't usually comment of this type of thread but I have to in this case. Many people who I respected & thought I had a feeling for have shocked me in this thread. <br /><br />Let me start by saying I'm white,Anglo-saxon. I grew up in the NE. America has always been the land of opportuniy for everyone. You get what you work for. That is what I believe and have been taught my whole life. I also believe that everyone should be given the chance to earn their way. I think the government should help people get started but there should be a limit as to the amount of help a person can get. <br /><br />I also believe that America should stand by her promises. Our government signed treaties with the Native Americans in order to end the wars. We should honor those treaties. If certain parts of those treaties (tax exemption) come back to bite us in the a**, so be it. I think that the original limits to a reservation should be the limit of the treaty. If a tribe buys land outside of the original agreement they should pay the same taxes on the land and any businesses they run as anyone else.<br /><br />I don't think the majority of any given people want to live in poverty or subject themselves to the humiliation of a hand out. Sure there are those who learn how to manipulate the system and I think they should be cut off. The problem with our system is that there are no ways to determine the needy from the abusers. All they have to do is prove an income level. I know many people who pay income taxes on a lot less than they earn. I don't know what the solution is. LF has come up with her own little way of dealing with abusers. She works for a private non-profit so she can do it. If they pull up in a new SUV or are wearing several hundred dollars worth of jewelry she turns them down. No matter what their paperwork says or how many kids they have. <br /><br />The cycle of poverty has to be broken on the reservations in order for the Native Americans to overcome the decades old stigma and stereotypes that have been put upon them. It is very obvious that the average American (represented by the members here) won't give them a chance. If it takes more money to fund the reservation schools then we need to do it. It's really pretty simple. Invest in the future (kids) and your own kids and grandkids won't have the same problems you face.
 

jtexas

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Re: Interesting Situation...

90ski, sorry if I offended. I'm afraid you're right, I was surprised to see a lot of predjudiced posts in this thread. If one were to judge some of the contributors solely by what one reads here, one's opinion of them would certainly be much lower. Fortunately one has more than just this thread on which to base one's opinions.<br /><br />History has shown that an oppressed people begin to believe the stigma & stereotypes put upon them by a dominant society, which makes it a self-perpetuating problem. To deny it is to refuse to learn from our mistakes. This wouldn't be the only time it's happened in our own country. An enlightened society such as ours should own up to and resolve its problems.
 

rodbolt

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Re: Interesting Situation...

well said mr ladyfish.<br />while its difficult to unravel the system manipulators from the actual needy it will never happen with poorly educated minimum wage govt workers. the key is education but the education has to fit the culture your trying to educate. the older I get the harder I try not to label people by race or culture. its difficult at times due to the vast differences in cultures.<br /> I lived on the same block in a taxas town that the grandma, daughter,grandkid and great grandbaby all lived in the same house and all were on welfare. none had ever held an actual meaningful job. was system abuse at its max. I think grandma had about 4 daughters and all had there first baby by age 15 or so and the granddaughters started popping great grandbabies about age 15 or so. yet the govt steady sent checks for support. its incredibly maddening when I shop for meats that are at the sell by date and on the reduced rack and the guy/gal in line beside me is buying choice cuts and nice name brand veggies with food stamps and keeping the 2 cartons of cool's and the case of colt 45 or schlitz malt and the 2 bottles of MD 20/20 seperate to pay with in cash then go get into a late model SUV with trick 700 a set rims and head home.
 

jtexas

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Re: Interesting Situation...

Originally posted by ZmOz:<br />
Originally posted by 90skichallenger:<br />The facts are simple theamerican indian was and still is screwed by the whiteman.
Notice the tense there - WAS. There is NO indian alive that is currently being "screwed by the white man".
ZmOz, when the us govt has fully paid all the royalties owed on oil & gas extracted from tribal lands over the last 150 or so years, we can look into the validity of your statement. Until then, I must respectfully disagree.<br /><br />[edit: note that I'm taking the term "White Man" in the traditional sense, meaning "those who are wielding the political power." As opposed to specifically caucasian males. I'm also taking "screwed" to mean "unfairly put at an economic disadvantage." Rather than literally "to fasten with a screw."]
 
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