Interesting Situation...

[wilkin250r]

Re: Interesting Situation...

Originally posted by Drowned Rat:<br />

<br />BTW, unless you are an Indian, you have NO idea. Clueless.

I'm not going to say that is the MOST ignorant post I've ever seen, but it definitely ranks way up there.<br /><br />Personally, I like Ralph's perspective. A deal is a deal, from BOTH sides. You want to go on about sovereign land and blah blah blah, BOTH sides signed the agreement. They are afforded certain freedoms and privileges that the average citizen does not have, so I don't want to hear anything about "oppression".

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: Interesting Situation...

It's not about who is better or worse or even who won and who lost it is about honoring our deals plain and simple. We made a deal and we are duty bound to honor it.<br /><br />Although you may wish you were a indian today, I'm sure you wouldn't have been so eager to be one in the 1800s when most of these "great" deals were forced on them.

 

[ZmOz]

Re: Interesting Situation...

Originally posted by Ralph:<br /> It's not about who is better or worse or even who won and who lost it is about honoring our deals plain and simple. We made a deal and we are duty bound to honor it.

I guarantee you the way they are using their extra rights today was not envisioned by either side in the original "deal". They are milking everything they can get out of it and giving nothing to us in return. What do we get out of this "deal"? I certainly didn't sign it, neither did anyone else around today...

 

[Drowned Rat]

Re: Interesting Situation...

wilkin, what do you call it when a government takes your house, takes your land, kills off or destroys everything you have to eat, rounds up everyone with dark skin and puts them on a "reservation"? That's happened to you I guess? You know how that feels. As I said, clueless!

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: Interesting Situation...

What we got in return was lots of land and an end to a very long war.<br /><br />Lot's of deals have unintended consequences. So be it. That's the way the world works. I would milk it too. Of coarse, we can always give them back all the land deeded to the USA in the deals and start over. What do you think would be more valuable to them a stinking casino or the land?<br /><br />People of honor live up to their agreements. End of story.

 

[Drowned Rat]

Re: Interesting Situation...

I don't know how it works in Oregon, but in Arizona, a large part of the casino's revenue,(the lion's share actually) goes to the state to fund programs for schools and universities mostly. Tourism on Native American land is a huge part of Arizona's income. Most Indians around here work very hard for what they have, which is very little. It's commendable and they have my respect.

 

[QC]

Re: Interesting Situation...

I love Indian Casinos. There's one on the Parker Strip on the Colorado River. Really nice slips, good ramp, little store. Works for me.

 

[NathanY]

Re: Interesting Situation...

Originally posted by Drowned Rat:<br /> wilkin, what do you call it when a government takes your house, takes your land, kills off or destroys everything you have to eat, rounds up everyone with dark skin and puts them on a "reservation"? That's happened to you I guess? You know how that feels. As I said, clueless!

So you are saying it happened to you? Not taking his side but, look at what you typed...

 

[NathanY]

Re: Interesting Situation...

Does anyone have an online source where I can read the treaties-agreements? As I am sure the make no mention of free healthcare, childcare, college, etc...

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: Interesting Situation...

this would be a good place to start I bet<br /><br /> http://www.doi.gov/bureau-indian-affairs.html

 

[Drowned Rat]

Re: Interesting Situation...

No, Nate it hasn't. But I can certainly sympathize. And I don't pretend to understand the actual experience. However, looking at it objectively and from talking to many Navajo, Apache, Hopi, Hualapai, and Havasupai tribe members, I think I understand them a little. Don't get me wrong though, these people don't complain. Mostly, they just want to be left alone. They are private people who strictly mind their own business. The same as they were 100 years ago and 200 years ago and so on.

 

[ZmOz]

Re: Interesting Situation...

Originally posted by Ralph:<br />People of honor live up to their agreements. End of story.

"We" never made an agreement with anybody. No indian alive today ever agreed to anything either...

 

[Barlow]

Re: Interesting Situation...

I'm no expert but, I'm no fool either.. I've got my thoughts and opinions on this but, I better keep them to myself ... they ain't good. and they ain't pro-'native amarican' BS.. If ya get my point.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Interesting Situation...

hahaaha<br /> a treaty by the US govt in the 1800's and early 1900's was worthless. many times we would enter a treaty only to break it when it was expedient. however as the indians intergrated and became more educated it slowed somewhat. what the govt did do the indians in the 1800's was crimminal in many cases but the indians had no lawyers and were considered sub-human by most all whites. kinda reminds one of certain situations today. while I agree a deal is a deal there has to be some limits on a deal. a good case was while I was in the upper lake Michigan areaa a local tribe was whining about gigging walleye in the fashion of their ancestors. by treaty they are exempt from the modern fish and game laws. my only objection was to the fishing/huntimg methods. I dont recall the "old ways" of fishing to include 100HP outboards, electric trolling motors 18Ft aluminium boats , onboard generators with 500 watt flood lights and 3 prong tempered steel gigs. if they wish to meat fish, by the treaty, they have to use the methods in place when the treaty was signed, canoes, pine knot tourches and the type of gig used by the tribe at the signing.<br /> seems though most US treaties are breakable by the US at any time for any reason as long as it benifits the majority. that has been going on since the 1600's. not saying its good nor bad it just was and is. its a historical fact. and not just applicable to the indian nation.

 

[wilkin250r]

Re: Interesting Situation...

Drowned Rat, I doubt there is an Indian alive today that personally knows how it feels, yet if you were to ask, they are all personally "oppressed".<br /><br />It has been pointed out once already, but I'll point it out again. It probably wasn't to great to be an Indian back when these deals were set in stone.<br /><br />But let's be honest, it was inevitable. We (the white men) were moving in. And quite frankly, they were lucky we were the ones to take over. That's right, I said it. LUCKY. There were natives in Mexico when it was colonized, but those natives don't even have an opportunity to engage a dispute over rights, priviledges, or oppression today. They got NOTHING out of the deal.<br /><br />Same with Hawaii. There is a dispute right now about who "owns" Hawaii, the U.S. or the Polynesian natives. If they were aquired by Japan, do you think they would even have an opportunity for such a dispute?<br /><br />Yeah, we took the land. Not very nice, but also (in my opinion) inevitable. But they were given something in return, something that very few conquered cultures have ever gotten. Sure, it sucked back then, but now they are making out like bandits. There hasn't been "oppression" for a hundred years.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: Interesting Situation...

Hey, maybe the Indians can say, "gee we don't like the deals anymore. We didn't sign them, so give us back Manhattan and every other valuable piece of land we signed over."<br /><br />It doesn't matter if you were "alive" or not. We as a people, as a nation, entered into agreements. <br /><br />How would you like it if you signed an employment contract and your boss quit and your new boss said, "gee you make too much money. I don't like this deal you made. Since I wasn't your boss then and "I" didn't sign it, I am not honoring the deal." I bet you wouldn't like that too much. <br /><br />How would you like it if in 20 years, when your house has appreciated significantly, if the original owner's kid showed up and said, "hey, I want my house back. I didn't sign that deal. Here is the money back you gave my Dad, now give me back my house."

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: Interesting Situation...

The people who now own the trillions and trillions of dollars worth of that land would take issue with you decision to give it all back. Do you have any idea whatsoever how much all of Manhattan is worth for example? Heck they could simply sell it and be better off than they are today.<br /><br />We didn't make similar deals with other people. You can disagree with the deals all you want there's nothing you can do about it. The courts have upheld the legality of the agreements many times as I recall.<br /><br />I never get jealous over deals people cut for themselves.

 

[ZmOz]

Re: Interesting Situation...

Originally posted by Ralph:<br /> Hey, maybe the Indians can say, "gee we don't like the deals anymore. We didn't sign them, so give us back Manhattan and every other valuable piece of land we signed over."<br />

They can have it, if they go back to living the way they were when we made the deals. No fire, police, medical coverage, drivers licenses, schools, college funds, etc. Why the hell should they get all that stuff without paying for it? That certainly wasn't part of the deal.<br /><br />They never should have got anything, period. Yeah, it sucked. Too bad. We won. Any wrongs we did to them have more than been made up. There is absolutely no reason for these benefits to continue.<br /><br />Like I said before, why not start giving these benefits to Mexicans? Or the Japanese? Or black people? Why are indians any different than these people?

 

[OLDSPUD]

Re: Interesting Situation...

I, like Barlow have a very strong opinion about these folks. Growing up near Blackfoot, Idaho, I've had my share of personal experiences, even to the point of defending myself with firearms against these oppressed folks.<br /><br />I could care less about their casino's or if they go into bankruptcy. <br /><br />I doubt, though that they have any private/Indian bankrupty courts, or favoritism in the white mans court.<br /><br />I have always wondered why I or people today should feel quilty of what happened 200 years ago. Ya it happened, I do think the gov't has dealt with the issue by giving these folks a living, literally a living. That does not mean that I need to feel quilty about anything that happened before me. I had no control over these actions neither did my parents or my grandparents, I guess I'll just hand over everything because someone got a raw deal. Hell, in those days and days prior, the world was ruled by conquering people and Nations. I know have you libs hate the old Europe, and Imigrating peoples from Europe, but Look how Europe was formed, the English, Romans, Egiptions, ect. oppressed and treated many nations and people as bad as the white man treated the Indians, do you see any bending over from any of these other countries. <br /> <br /><br />Gambling is a problem that cuts across the board, any one who participates should accept the consequences good or bad.<br /><br />Spud

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: Interesting Situation...

For me, it's not about "oppression" or past wrongs or any of that crap. It's just about honoring the deals that were made. At the time these deals weren't so good. Today they are starting to pay off and I have BIG ISSUES with people who only honor deals when they favor them and want to abrogate them when they favor the other party. We conservatives like to think a deal is a deal and a person's word is their bond. If you can't have faith in the enforcement of deals (contracts) you can't do business.