I bet Iran and North Korea are a bit worried

woodrat · Nov 3, 2004

Re: I bet Iran and North Korea are a bit worried

Originally posted by 12Footer: 

Originally posted by woodrat: North Korea has no oil.

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Surely they have something Haliburton or us EVIL Americans can EXPLOIT. Wow.

maybe bad haircuts and kimchee? I have never said "evil americans", 12 footer, and you know it. I just think that war for oil is the wrong choice, because either way, we are going to run out of it, and we are likely to be pretty unprepared either way, but especially unprepared if we spend the last decade or so of cheap oil in denial. And I just refuse to buy the "Americans riding in on a white horse filled with purity and goodness to save the day" routine. it is simply untrue. We are as base in our motives as any other culture or nation. You right wingers like to throw around this america-hating business every time anyone comes up with any kind of critical analysis of the US at all. Whatever. But you might ask your cowboy/oil/fratboy administration what their plans are for when the cheap and easy oil has been extracted. that day will come, and maybe sooner than later. **** Cheney knows all about it, maybe you could give him a call.

kenimpzoom · Nov 3, 2004

Re: I bet Iran and North Korea are a bit worried

Woodrat, we invaded Iraq the first time because they invaded Kuwait. Kuwait is our ally, so we went to their defense. We invaded Iraq the second time because we thought they were a threat. Dont make it sound like Iraq is 100% innocent, and we are robbers taking over the land. However, I can promise you this, if there was no oil there, we would not give a rats *** about the entire mid east. If that is your point, then I agree. Ken

dogsdad · Nov 3, 2004

Re: I bet Iran and North Korea are a bit worried

If there was no oil in the Middle East, the problems would be far simpler to solve. As it stands, a lot of crazy people over there have too much money and technology at their disposal. Were it not for the oil, they'd be riding around on camels chasing goats or something. Reminds me of what happens when some poor inner-city kid who's eight feet tall gets recruited into the NBA and becomes rich overnight. -dd-

woodrat · Nov 3, 2004

Re: I bet Iran and North Korea are a bit worried

If there wasn't oil over there, we wouldn't have ANY allies there. We would not care one bit. And the allies we do have since there IS oil over there are pretty reprehensible. the Saudis are just as backwards and brutal as saddam was, yet we pander to them all the time, for fear they will turn off the tap. Makes me sick! and the kuwaitis? gag! actually, just before saddam invaded kuwait, our ammbassador to Iraq, April Glaspie, told saddam that we didn't care what he did with his border disputes. Then when he invaded kuwait, we went storming in there to "protect our allies". Why not let the rich *******s protect themselves?! Oh that's right....the OIL. Its all about the oil, guys. Without it, life as we know it is over. As a cold logical calculation I can see exactly why to go to war over there when you consider the oil. What makes me mad is the BS and lies about it. Let W and **** face the nation and tell us the truth: ten more years or so of cheap oil (peak production expected in 2010 or so, according to **** cheney in a speech to his fellow oil guys), then it starts getting really expensive, really fast. Sooner if China starts buying buicks from us. And if we conquer Iraq, then we won't have to share any of that particular puddle of the stuff. After peak production, the oil supply starts dropping off, while global demand keeps going up up up. This isn't some democratic party conspiracy. You don't ever hear THEM talking about it, either, because they are just as bereft of a useful plan as the repubs are. And, like I've said before, at the least the repubs DO have a plan, its just a short-term, dead-end one. But plenty of oil geologists in the know have been predicting this for decades. And its getting closer and closer every day, while we keep our collective heads buried firmly in the sand. Yap all you want about the Evil Saddam and the Good and Gracious George Bush. It won't fill your tank in 2012 though.

cmyers_uk · Nov 4, 2004

Re: I bet Iran and North Korea are a bit worried

When you look at the state of the US economy with a budget deficit of $412.5 Billion and a trade deficit of $54 billion, how exactly are you going to afford to invade Iran or Korea? All the time we are bleeding money in Iraq, China's economy grows , their oil consumption grows which pushes up the price and increases our costs. Bin Laden isnt the only person looking to bankrupt the US economy.

12Footer · Nov 4, 2004

Re: I bet Iran and North Korea are a bit worried

I can't argue oil issues, because I don't really know much about what happened to the supply two years from now. But when you said, "North Korea has no oil", you seem to know this with some certainty, and that such knowledge would negate any conflicts there. I can only debate from that point...Kind of a silly direction to take this thread, but oh well..With each post from you, it gets easier to derail them. You also seem to be able to predict when our supply will be used-up. What you fail to realise is, MOST Americans (who are candid), will tell you they are VERY concerned with that majic date. Just like me, they use oil to fuel thier cars, werk equipment, electricity, ect. To suddenly run-out of oil is not tied to the mid east, other than delaying that date. Haliburton, BP et al would then be out of buisness too. They do not want to be out of buisness. I do not want to walk the 33miles each way to werk,and they probably would not want me, because the job I do requires energy usage. But in the 70's Three Mile Island happened. Then Chernobyl happened and the activists had thier way. and California banned all future nuke power plants, forcing them to demand power from nearby states where some nukes were, and we got "grey-out Davis". But have the activists seen thier role in expediting increased demand on fossil fuels because of any of that? Heck NO! To them, it's Cheny's fault! They now protest Haliburton, which has nothing to do with Cheney since 2000,BEFORE accepting the nomination for VP. And then, they call Iraq a "war for oil". But just try to establish an alternative fuel source, start installing infrastructure to make this source useable and convieniant, and as little as I know about oil,They would picket and cry and sabotage ad nauseum. I have "activists" figured out. You can call them activists, whackos ,whatever you like. But thier stripes NEVER change.

kenimpzoom · Nov 4, 2004

Re: I bet Iran and North Korea are a bit worried

So much Doom and Gloom and negativity. You have no faith in the USA? Do you think we are all a bunch of morons that couldnt figure out what to do when oil supplies get short, or how to save the economy? Yall watch too much liberal news. Ken

rolmops · Nov 4, 2004

Re: I bet Iran and North Korea are a bit worried

12Footer,Did you ever consider that it may well have been big oil that had a big stake in not allowing nuclear energy to succeed? It is a fact of life that every company on this world is reluctant to invest in a new product as long as the existing one holds a monopoly.It is much cheaper and more profitable to let your tax dollars pay for the defense of their investments. This is not republican or democrat,this is pure and simple economics. The only problem with this train of thought is longe range external developments(all other things being equal).Remember what happened to the once almighty American car industry?My future prediction for the now almighty American oil industry is quite simular.

cmyers_uk · Nov 4, 2004

Re: I bet Iran and North Korea are a bit worried

Kenimpzoom, Lets except that the vast majority are not morons thats a given, however as its really simple if you are spending more that you are earning you get a budget deficit. To repay that you have to earn more than you spend. So you tell me what cost savings should be made to reduce spending or should tax increase? the only alternative is to keep borrowing and eventually the bank forecloses! Wars are expensive. No one said you cant beat Iran / Korea but how much will it cost and are you willing to pay the price fincially before getting into the loss of life argument.

12Footer · Nov 4, 2004

Re: I bet Iran and North Korea are a bit worried

Originally posted by rolmops: 12Footer,Did you ever consider that it may well have been big oil that had a big stake in not allowing nuclear energy to succeed?

I think I may have considered that after hearing the theory raised on Crossfire,Face the Nation, or one of those other shows...For about two seconds. I don't profess to be a buisness genius. Instead, I tend to put myself in the mental frame of the buisness. "what would I do if I were CEO?" My own answer to that is, expand the alternative infrastructure that I surely allready had started, so as to compete, in order to give MY company the edge in said competition.

Originally posted by rolmops: It is a fact of life that every company on this world is reluctant to invest in a new product as long as the existing one holds a monopoly.

I disagree. Not all. It would have to be a monoploly. There are none.Any buisnesses governed that way soon fold.Sure, there have been many, but not all. Monopolies are not legal.

Originally posted by rolmops: It is much cheaper and more profitable to let your tax dollars pay for the defense of their investments.

Not true,in my admitted limitted knowledge of such subjects. Even in the short-term, such expenditures would dig-into profit margins, causing a hiring freeze ,staff cuts, and a total halt to R&D. As we know, oil companies (like pharmecutical companies) are, by thier very nature, burdened with spending most of thier operations capital on R&D. Also, monopolies are ilegal. But for the sake of debate, let's just say "said company" was one. This buisness would pull-out all the stops to maintain zero competition. But it could not under current laws,, which de-ligitimises any buisness.

Originally posted by rolmops: This is not republican or democrat,this is pure and simple economics. The only problem with this train of thought is longe range external developments(all other things being equal).Remember what happened to the once almighty American car industry?My future prediction for the now almighty American oil industry is quite simular.

I agree. We have seen the auto industry shaken to it's core. And we saw what not diversifying has done to thier bottom line. If Haliburton (for example) didn't stay on top of alternative energy sources to a greater extent then increasing even current production, they will go the way of the buggy builder.

1730V · Nov 4, 2004

Re: I bet Iran and North Korea are a bit worried

Haliburton, Haliburton, Schmaliburton. Get over it. Who else can do what they can do? Nobody. Name someone. We can't pack a lunch and send it to the troops through the US mail! Haliburton has been been providing military support since the Lyndon Johnson regime. Guess what the military outsourced! Many Haliburton employees have been killed doing their job!!!! It seems there were some Democrat presidents in that time span that also used them including Clinton. Why was it OK for them? Why would we promote nuclear? We will not let it work here. It is the NIMBY issue. Nimby=not in my backyard.

woodrat · Nov 4, 2004

Re: I bet Iran and North Korea are a bit worried

Originally posted by kenimpzoom: Yall watch too much liberal news.

Haven't had a TV in my house since 1989.

woodrat · Nov 4, 2004

Re: I bet Iran and North Korea are a bit worried

Originally posted by 12Footer: But when you said, "North Korea has no oil", you seem to know this with some certainty, But in the 70's Three Mile Island happened. Then Chernobyl happened and the activists had thier way. and California banned all future nuke power plants, forcing them to demand power from nearby states where some nukes were, and we got "grey-out Davis". But have the activists seen thier role in expediting increased demand on fossil fuels because of any of that? Heck NO! To them, it's Cheny's fault! They now protest Haliburton, which has nothing to do with Cheney since 2000,BEFORE accepting the nomination for VP. And then, they call Iraq a "war for oil". But just try to establish an alternative fuel source, start installing infrastructure to make this source useable and convieniant, and as little as I know about oil,They would picket and cry and sabotage ad nauseum.

If N korea had their own oil, we wouldn't have been using heating oil as a carrot to get them to behave. How exactly are nukes going to power our automobiles? Nuclear technology isn't even that clever. Its just a very dangerous, toxic way of heating water. Hasn't the nuke thing been proven to be enough of a problem all on its own to convince you of its folly? I would bet, although i don't know for sure, that no one on this forum would want to live right next to a reactor if they had the choice. As far as the energy crisis in CA goes, that was not because of a lack of nukes, but because of intentional fraud and manipulation of the market and supply, some of which was perpetrated by W's pal "kenny boy" of Enron fame (who was probably involved in **** Cheney's secret energy policy meetings as well). If there had been more nukes, they would have been just as susceptible to being taken off line as the other plants were. As far as alternative energy sources go, the repubs have always been staunchly opposed to anything having to do with cleaner technology like solar or wind. remeber ron reagan removing the solar water heating panels from the white house as soon as he got there? It wasn't because it wasn't working. It was about sending a message. remember **** Cheney's stand on conservation? basically irrelevant, he said. Don't bother. Its been the big business oriented right wing that has had its head in the sand about REAL alternative energy supplies all along. To say that alternative energy supplies haven't been developed because of the liberals is so ridiculous that I can't even come up with a snappy metaphor for it. Unless of course you are going to redefine nukes as "the alternative" and ignore nuclear power's totally poisonous and expensive legacy. The statement that Cheney hasn't had anything to do with halliburton since 2000 is laughably naive. You would never accept an explanation like that from a democratic administration. Never in a thousand years.

kenimpzoom · Nov 4, 2004

Re: I bet Iran and North Korea are a bit worried

Nukes IS the answer. If all of our electricity was generated by nuke, think of how much more oil would be left for everything else. As far as the economy, we MUST cust spending, but you CANT raise taxes. Rasing taxes slows an economy. Think about it... 50% of 100 dollars is less than 30% of 200 dollars. A stronger economy with lower tax rate creates more tax revenue than higher taxe rate with weaker economy. And, I would just love for all those "banks" to try to forclose on their loans to the USA. They would be cutting their own throats. Ken

12Footer · Nov 4, 2004

Re: I bet Iran and North Korea are a bit worried

Short-term maybee ,Ken. But there are many other powerfull,cheap forms of energy to be made efficiant, like Hydrogen. At one time, oil as an energy source was considered way too inpractical for use, and most users used coal. They used oil to replace whale fat for lighting. The technology to connvert it into a power source had yet to be developed. Samey-same with Hydrogen. Nukes also, but there are the inherant problems with waste and core containment that must be overcome. I'm sure "big oil" is spending R&D time and money on it too, tho. It's a matter of self-preservation for "big Oil". If they aren't werkin on it, they will then become "little oil", or worse, "obsolete oil".

waterone1@aol.com · Nov 4, 2004

Re: I bet Iran and North Korea are a bit worried

For all of the 60's hippies like John Kerry that use that same old, moronic "no war for oil" slogan, what does that really mean ? How is it relevent? When has the U.S. gone into a country and taken it's oil supplies ?? I mean, when have we ever sent our military somewhere, droped bombs, put fences around the refineries, and taken their oil?? when has that ever happened ? Is Iraq sending us oil at $10.00 per barrel, do you think they will ? Before we put sanctions on Sadam was he wilfully selling the oil of Iraq...you bet he was. Every country that has oil is selling it on the international market, the more countries that are selling, the lower the price goes. Other than the cheating low-life French and Russians, who was benifitting from the sanctions on Iraq, it sure wasn't the U.S. With all that Iraq is costing us, I sure wish this Was for oil, maybe we could get our gas prices below $2.00 per gallon.

JasonJ · Nov 5, 2004

Re: I bet Iran and North Korea are a bit worried

There has to be a concern over potential oil shortages at the big business/government level. It isn't just about energy. Our entire way of life is based on oil. We live in a plastic world, and plastic comes from oil. Most of what we do comes from oil. It may sound naive, but I find it hard to beleive that the powers that be don't care about the fact that eventually we will be living Flintstones style unless we figure out an alternative to oil. It is cheaper to go as things are going, but someone somewhere has to be trying to come up with a way to maintain our way of life after the oil is gone. Fuel cell technology is the most likely alternative for transportation, but it takes a lot of energy to create hydrogen. They have figured out a dramatically cleaner way to utilize coal, so we will be seeing the return of coal usage for energy. Nukes are still a viable alternative, if we can figure out what to do with the waste. I don't want to sound like a hippy tree hugger because I am not, but we could be doing a little better job at the individual level to stave off the inevitable a little longer. Yes I drive a gas sucking V8 pickup truck, but I drive that truck less than 4000 miles a year. I recycle all my recyclables. I keep my home energy usage to a minimum by turning lights off when not needed, using energy efficient apliances, etc. People going out and building 5000 square foot homes when there are no children, driving full size Suburbans when they have no children and nothing to tow, this sort of thing is what is killing our resources. There is always that age old arguement of "I earn enough money to live that way, so I should be able to live that way". It is ridiculous. There are ways to live the good life without draining the worlds resources. Hey, I love my country, but we use over 60 percent of the worlds resources, doesn't that say something? Maybe a 3000 square foot house, maybe a smaller luxury vehicle. I know that doesn't quite say "I am better than you" like the big stuff does, but it would be nice if my grandkids get the chance to live in a world that still has resources. As it stands, society is selfish and does not look beyond next year, let alone the next 100 years. Oh look, the new Hummer H2 is out...

mellowyellow · Nov 5, 2004

Re: I bet Iran and North Korea are a bit worried

and everyday, stuff I buy that "used" to come in a paper or metal package now comes in plastic. other than AL, it takes more energy to recycle stuff than it saves, especially plastic. if hemp (not pot) were leagal, you could make all the paper fibre u needed without cutting down a single tree too! back to Ken, Iran has become much more moderate recently and less fanatical, although the crazies still exist and want Iran to go back to the dark ages. they are in the UN gunsight right now re: nuclear. as 4 kim so nutz, china will kick his butt way before we have to and he knows it. he's already looking for a way to back out and save face. PS. nice hairdo kim

LOL

dogsdad · Nov 5, 2004

Re: I bet Iran and North Korea are a bit worried

The free market is a mavelous thing, and when oil prices reach some threshold things will happen. On another tack, I think the people who have done everything they can to keep Alaskan resources from being utilized are responsible in no small part for the degree that we are dependent on foreign oil. Seems to me that they think American lives are not as valuable as a herd of caribou. -dd-

mellowyellow · Nov 5, 2004

Re: I bet Iran and North Korea are a bit worried

wish I woulda said that! bullseye DD

I bet Iran and North Korea are a bit worried

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