Honda Nightmare

[Drowned Rat]

Re: Honda Nightmare

Rodbolt, I'm not sure about your theory with the whole nipple thing. If the nipple has an unthreaded portion between what threads into the block and what threads into the filter and that unthreaded portion wasn't treaded into the block far enough, that would be a problem. The filter would screw on and then hit that unthreaded portion and tighten up but not necessarily seat against the block. And if it was close enough, you really wouldn't notice it. PSI is PSI, yes, but this was the first run out of break in and he had just changed the filter. Maybe the new filter gasket wasn't quite as thick as the factory original. Maybe he was running at a higher RPM hence higher PSI. What if at the factory when they test ran this motor, the tech saw a leak at the filter and just cranked down on it more to stop it. As you know the manual tells you to turn until it seats, or in the case of this particular motor until it appears to seat, and then another 1/2 turn or whatever. Just a thought. I can see how this may have happened. Also, screwing on the filter would not necessarily also screw in a loose nipple more. It depends on how much torque would be needed to twist it on. Typically not much is used when installing an oil filter. <br /><br />RB. Has Honda offered to re-imburse you for the teardown if a warantee issue is found?

 

[MajBach]

Re: Honda Nightmare

I never read anywhere that rock bottom saw a warning light and continued to run the outboard. I think someone assumed this and all readers following also assumed he knowingly ignored the light. I have not made this assumtion. IF this is indeed the case, he deserved what came to him. I suggested that ignoring the warning light by not checking it because you are unsatisfied with its location is not an excuse. So far, there is no verification that the light came on or was even serviceable - something a teardown might reveal. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why a teardown hasn't commenced?<br />The idiot on the Honda does not notify you that 'it is too late', it warns the operator: "hey idiot, you've got no oil, stop running the engine - before it's too late!"

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Honda Nightmare

drowned rat.<br /> think . think real hard.<br /> if I had a stud that threaded into the block. the stud has a non threaded portion. I place the nut on the stud and thread it down. once the nut quit turning because it hit the shoulder on the stud I now have a bolt. the stud will start turning and tightening into the block with the nut. same with the filter. were this a main cap or rod bolt it may be that the torque may or may not be sufficient to prevnt a cap to block or cap to rod movement. I also put a lot of small block chevies together that use double ended studs on the main caps. however it really takes only a half a turn to seal the filter oring to the housing. like I said if your strong enough you could toss the nipple in the creek and hold the filter to the block with no leaks.<br /> its a simple case that if it was a filter leak, it was a filter installation issue or filter sealing defect, not a defect in the engine or design. wish I had a dollar for every filter union I have had come off with the filter.<br /> thats the differene between shade tree and professional. we have to stand behind it while a shade tree blames any and everything but their own skills or lack of.<br /><br /> and the .oo1" feeler gauge thing is laughable. yall go grab your feeler gauges. see if ya have a .001 and then try to stick it any place. and I dont care the consistancy of the motor oil if it will leak its gonna. it may leak more when warm but I imagine that motor will hold over 40 psi at a cold idle. way more than enough to make it leak with a .oo1" gap.<br /> the oil filter requires 1 full turn to tighten after seal ring contact. its only a few people I have ever seen with the hand strength to do it. most filters are loose anyway.<br /> I got a feeling this was a tiny filter that was hand tighted and just was not tight enough.<br /><br />most "top notch" speed mochanics I ever ran across were porch monkees.<br /> I know one that can assemble a v6 merc in 6 hours starting with a bare block to running, however I have never seen one of his motors last over 100 hours and have redone a few that did not make the break in period. and i have been working in this area behind that porch monkey for 15+ years. he still aint woth killing but he has a nice snap on tool box.<br /> in fact if you tell me he was the last person to touch it I will refuse to work on it, period. I wont even talk about it on the phone.<br /> so it goes back to the person that installed the filter either missed something due to inattention or just plain messed up. it happens. does not mean its a defect.

 

[Drowned Rat]

Re: Honda Nightmare

I agree with everything you said rodbolt, but, I still say it's possible for you to think your seating the oil filter AND not turn it hard enough to advance the nipple any further. Never had it happen to me, just guessing. Also, what if the nipple was machined wrong and was too long on the block end. Could it have been bottomed out? What if this nipple was a 50hp motor nipple mistakenly installed on a 25? I know that's a reach, but stranger things have happened. I mean it just sounds like this guy knows how to change an oil filter and probably wouldn't make the simple mistakes that are listed in this thread. Anyway, a teardown should tell the tale. I'm really interested to see what they find.

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: Honda Nightmare

Something else that hasn't been mentioned is that Honda has a low oil pressure rev limiter which was also ignored until the point of total motor failure.

I knew about this from reading it in my owners manuel. I didn't mention it because I didn't know if it the same for a BF25 as it is for my BF50.<br />Maybe Richard can tell us if it states this in his owners manuel.<br /><br />There is a lot that we don't know.<br />This forum doesn't contain a pattern of Honda not standing behind it's warranty.<br />Honda must have very strong reasons why it refuses to help.<br />We are only hearing only one side of this arguement.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Honda Nightmare

then it would not have run flawlessly for the first 20 hours.<br /> nice thing about outboards. usually if its a factory defect it will show up rapidly. DFI two strokes excluded.<br /><br /> ok next theory. suppose they quit putting female threads in the filter and all filters come with a threaded male stud that threads into the block. whats the difference ? once the coupler bottomed out on the filter threads the coupler becomes a stud on the filter and any further tightening of the filter will rotate the stud and the basic inclined plane theory will tell me it will continue to pull the filter against the block.

 

[rock bottom]

Re: Honda Nightmare

Majbach<br />'Filter loose' meant only that I could easily take it of with one hand to crack the seal...usually you need a filter wrench.<br />Also I need to emphahasize that this thread was started after numerous attempts on the part of MBM for a month to get Honda to replace my motor and phone calls on my part where the only ting they could come up with verbally was 'that I didnt add oil'...they wont listen to the factory trained technicians AND management's opinions nor would they listen to the fact there was oil all over the motor. I think I have acted pretty fairly in the context of everything and i can show they havent acted fairly at all ...again we go back the big 'three' <br />1. did I add oil?<br />2. did i tighten the filter?<br />3. did I test and run the motor?<br />and can I prove all three? yes...<br />this put them in breach of contract of my warranty regardless of who performed the service.

 

[SeaMasterZ@aol.com]

Re: Honda Nightmare

ANYONE can properly perform an oil service<br /><br />clearly there is tolerances to any motor, perhaps it is the case that the original oil filter had a slightly thicker seal, enough to offset the slightly extended (in relative terms) nipple ...<br /><br />in any case, a brand new motor serviced with genuine honda parts SHOULD BE COVERED if there is catastrophic failure.<br /><br />A multi BILLION dollar GIANT Corporation can easily pay to get that motor rebuilt and blown out as a reman motor, keep a clearly LOYAL Honda customer happy and with the problems resolved, sell the repaired motor and create a NEW Honda Customer<br /><br />My tractor is a honda, and its so damn sweet I cant stand the thing, makes my Lawn Boy look like a total piece of SCHIT!!! I also bought a Honda bike motor, but with this buisness of Honda not being decent to the boating folk, when my sizeable lawsuit comes in, twin Hondas will NOT be on the back of my 25 Parker, yammies or E-tec will get the nod (shame those verado motors are so dammed ugly)<br /><br />This time, HONDA SUCKS!

 

[accord_guy]

Re: Honda Nightmare

Rock, <br /><br /> The big three as you state; <br /><br /> 1. did I add oil?<br /> 2. did i tighten the filter?<br /> 3. did I test and run the motor?<br /><br /> What about #4 - did I keep an eye on the <br /> oil pressure light while <br /> under load? <br /> (I should have been, because this is the<br /> #1 responsibility of any engine operator.) <br /> <br /><br /> If you go to court, be ready to answer that<br /> one. If you need to have a lawyer, be prepared<br /> to pay them more than a new engine. Honda has a<br /> track record, you don't.<br /><br /> Also, beware what your dealer is saying as to <br /> their conversations with Honda. Unless you've <br /> actually witnessed these conversations,you<br /> have no idea what was said. They're probably<br /> saying one thing to you and another to them <br /> <br /> Good luck.

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Honda Nightmare

Nothing's changed, using any brand of any kind of engine, after any warning device comes on, is always considered "customer abuse of product" It is simply not recoverable under warranty, unless you badger them into doing something for you under their "Goodwill budget"...Judging from the posts here...They will have no reason to do that at this point.

 

[accord_guy]

Re: Honda Nightmare

Well put Elvin. It's just a matter of moving on<br /> and not doing it again.

 

[gss036]

Re: Honda Nightmare

The whole problem became mute for help when Rockbottom mentioned "Attorney & Sue ". From that point there will only be a legal response when a lawsuit is filed.

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: Honda Nightmare

"Goodwill budget"

Yep, I see it happen every day, that budget is meant to be spent. It's allocated for circumstances just like this one.<br />That's what I mean, we're not hearing the part of the story where he totally pssted off the District Rep.<br />Just by refusing a teardown was enough to prohibit any "goodwill adjustment".

 

[Rick-Mi]

Re: Honda Nightmare

Originally posted by Skinnywater:<br />

"Goodwill budget"

Yep, I see it happen every day, that budget is meant to be spent. It's allocated for circumstances just like this one. That's what I mean, we're not hearing the part of the story where he totally pssted off the District Rep.

I respectfully dissagree one one thing. Since when do companies budget money for owner negligence? Why should Honda simply because they are a large company with the best engineering reputation in the business, replace a perfectly fine running motor because an owner improperly installed an oil filter and then ran it to complete failure in spite of TWO different engine protection systems?<br /><br />You can bet your last nickel with a little care one could spin on an OEM filter with a properly lubricated gasket and it will seal perfectly. If there was a truly defective part on the motor preventing proper oil filter installation or the Honda dealer performed the oil change this subject would never be on the board because it would have been covered under warranty long ago. <br /><br />One thing I agree completely with. You can take it to the bank just reading this thread that every bridge has been burned to the max with the Honda people! Often a reasonable person, especially a long time customer, can catch a little slack from a sympathetic decision maker.....even with a weak explination. But, in this case I've got a feeling everybody's blood pressure spikes through the roof when a certain individual enters the scene

 

[rock bottom]

Re: Honda Nightmare

Rick Mi<br />I did not negligently install a filter and can prove it. We worked with Honda for a month and a half through MBM who tried over and over. I made several calls and got no where...this is after the tenth to twelth attempt between our efforts. Read the post carefully. I made evry effort over and over in a congenial manner before it got to this point. The district rep long ago refused to even inspect it 'while bragging to evryone it can run ten hours on a thimble of oil'...yes my attitude , at this point is not good. Tell me how I installed a filter incorrectly sir?..thats kind of a general statement with nothing to back it up. I read comments about my attitude? Put yourself in my shoes and I bet you would be upset too. I filed my court papers today...the trial date is 10-27-05 in Santa Cruz. I thank all the sincere, well thought replies from everyone...and the sincere attention to the actual problem itself. If this can happen to me of all people it can happen to Rick mi or anyone else too.<br />Thank you<br />Richard

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: Honda Nightmare

Good luck Richard, let us know how it turns out.<br />

Since when do companies budget money for owner negligence?

I wasn't giving you an opinion.<br />Goodwill adjustment is done on a case by case basis. It is usually prompted by the franchise dealer. <br />There are some criteria that is used in making the final decision.<br />Some of these criteria are;<br />Did the customer by a new product from the prompting dealer?<br />Does the customer have the dealer perform all the scheduled maintenence? Is the customer likely to continue to buy the product and continue to have it serviced at the dealer? Is the customer reasonable and does the customer convey "goodwill" towards the manufacture and dealer.<br />The adjustment can be for any reason or negligence, all or in part. It can be a total adjustment from the manufacture or a percentage from all involved. The most common is 30% participation from the manufacture, 30% from the selling dealer, and 30% from the customer.<br /><br />I've seen seat upholstery that was chewed by their dog get replaced free of charge just because they were a repeat buyer, spent money in the service department and were genuinely nice people to deal with.

 

[MajBach]

Re: Honda Nightmare

Well, good luck, I'm pullin for ya. Like I said, regardless of fault, I know I'd feel the same if I were in your shoes and this entire nightmare probably ruined your season. Honda could have changed that.

 

[accord_guy]

Re: Honda Nightmare

Don't forget you're going to get drilled <br /> about the warning light and engine sputter. <br /> Be prepared to testify that you weren't watching<br /> for either one to indicate something was<br /> wrong. Be prepared to discover that your <br /> dealer wasn't really on your side after all.<br /> The oil filter blah blah will become very<br /> unimportant because the bottom line is the <br /> oil leaked out after you changed it <br /> yourself and the engine locked up. <br /> It will be your day in court, but<br /> you'll be defending yourself. <br /> Good luck and sleep well. Nuff said.

 

[Grumpyless]

Re: Honda Nightmare

Sorry for your troubles!!!!!! Some of us understand that $3700 dollars is a lot of money. I have gotten some strange reactions when I tell everyone the troubles I have had out of my wife's toyota camry. OH YEAH, Cars are not Boat motors. The only reason I joined the forum is to say I feel it is wrong to overlook a fellow man's troubles because you have had good luck out of a (car?). He doesn't need to be drilled from peers in a forum, he was looking for some help. I guess people don't like to help anymore!! But, enough of that. I would offer the motor to any outboard motor competetor to see if they would be willing to have their techs tear the motor down for you and let them use your story. My friend bought a Johnson 150 in 1998. Local techs could not ever get it to run smoothly. Johnson sent some of their techs to his house, picked up the boat, took it and put a new powerhead on it!!

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Honda Nightmare

Regardless of what caused the problem, defect by manufacturer or user, use of an engine after a warning indicator goes off precludes the problem being covered by the warranty. We can all feel sorry for anyone who has to pull out their own wallet for an expensive repair, but NO manufacturer is going to take a bath because someone used one of their products without due care. If the man can prove that the warning indicator did not go off...he might have a case. Otherwise it is his fault that the engine is damaged. Most of the people you will find here will try to offer help and advice. If you look back through these posts you can see that all that advice has been ignored because it's not what someone wants to hear. It's unfortunate, but that's the way it is.