Honda Nightmare

[rock bottom]

Re: Honda Nightmare

I need to make it clear that I am dealing at the management level in customer relations. The Dealer Monterey Bay Marine has been incredible, awesome, and professional and impartial..my problem lies with a tech who is paid to do field evaluations and wont , and a hokey pokey explanantion of' pressure test?' - non proper diagnosis...on a seized motor....<br />MBM kept my boat for thirty days and fought for what was right, over and over..didnt make a dime off me and were overruled in their observation...from the young tech who found the 'tight, leaking' filter...not LOOSE leaking filter...its right on the repair order as evidence. Honda tells me they didnt find a tight leaking filter...i have personally heard specific comments made to me by MBM that Honda has completely changed and twisted around...yes someone is obstructing very clear professional and very credible anecdotal evidence to support my claim...i tried to go back to Voyager Marine in Santa Clara where I bought the motor after buying my honda 90 hp from him, he would not help me..<br />when i finally got him to make a call he called up complaining about MBM further muddying the waters. I have spent $15,000 and a ton of referrals and this is how he handled it..he sold me 2002 motor in 2004 out of the box and never registered my warranty.

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Honda Nightmare

In the end, unless you can prove that the warning light and or buzzer was inoperative , Honda can and will claim that you operated the engine with a low or no pressure warning. That relieves them of any liability as to engine damage. From their and any other engine manufacturer's perspective, any damage that occurs from running the engine with low or no oil pressure is the result of abuse and is not recoverable under warranty. A manufacturer's warranty covers a design defect or workmanship problem. They might be liable for the nipple/filter problem, but not for any damage resulting from running the engine without oil. It may not seem fair or right, but they have the warning indicators on the boat or engine for a reason....Just to prevent things like this from happening. If you tke them to court you will loose based on the fact that you choose to run the engine with a warning light on. I know you claimed earlier that you did not hear a warning buzzer, but I bet that little light was on and that's going to be Honda's way out of this. Now, if you can prove that the warning system did not work you have them dead to rights and any judge will decide in your favor. Let us know how it works out.

 

[rock bottom]

Re: Honda Nightmare

There was no warning at all ... no buzzers, no bells...nothing...just seized up. I swear to god there was no audible warning in any way....on top of the tight filter/leaking oil, there was no warning.<br />I suspect a lemon motor. It wa a 2002 but still unsold as of late 2004...i see two problems here not one

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Honda Nightmare

I understand that there was no audible warning, but, depending on the specific model, the visual warning light may/probably have been on. That's all Honda needs to deny responsibility for any damage resulting from low/no oil. It's not uncommon to find new previous year models for sale at dealerships and that shouldn't be an issue unless it was sold to you as a current year engine. Selling you an 02 as a 04 is fraud and the dealer would be liable for that. Also, the dealer was required by Honda to perform a Pre Delivery Inspection on that engine before delivering it to you. If the dealer did not do that inspection he was in violation of Honda policy and is subject to a variety of penalties by Honda...Up to loosing his status as an authorized dealer. You shouldn't be able to make a case against the dealer for the engine damage as they have the same out as Honda, but, if you have a good attorney and they have a bad attorney and the judge likes you......Basically what I'm trying to tell you is that it is a lost cause to pursue a case against Honda. You may have a shot against the dealer, but that's 50/50 at best. In the end it's probably still going to be you holding the bag on this one unless you can prove that the warning light was defective.

 

[squidvicious]

Re: Honda Nightmare

This is really interesting, I'm Richard's neighbor Dennis. I recall the night before Richard went out and witnessed Richard test running the Honda engine. <br /><br />We ran it for about 10 minutes onshore, running it with the garden hose connected, without _any_ issues, the engine did not make any abnormal noises, sqeaks, nor siezing the night before he went out for this trip. I also was monitoring the engine temperature, feeling the block, feeling the pee coming out of the pee hole, and I do strongly believe that I did check the oil level before we even started the engine. I don't see how an engine can run for 10 minutes _without_ any oil, none the less not making any noises before <br />it siezed up the following day. Again during the test run onshore,he water coming out of the pee hole was a normal warm temperature after 1-2 minutes and stayed consistent all the way to engine shutdown, initiated by the user (Rich) from the kill switch. The block was warm to the touch and I could hold my hand direclty to the block. The block did not have an abnormal temperature during and after this test run. <br /><br />Secondly want to state this engine had to run out of the harbor. This makes 10 minutes running under a hose, and about 10 or more minutes running and motoring out of the harbor. I would believe an engine would seize up before that time under the conditions that it did not have oil in it the night we both witnessed and test ran the honda onshore.<br /><br />I also want to say that I bought Rich's previous boat that has Honda BF90 (9Ohp). When I did a teardown, taking the intake, carbs off the first time I _noticed_ a washer stuck in the air intake just waiting to fall into the engine chamber. It was just sitting there, being thrown around in the intake chamber by motion of the opening and closing of the intake valve. Luckally the washer was just the right size that it could not fall past the intake valve, even in the valves fully opened state. I really _do_ believe that this was a Honda Defect from the factory! The washer was a polished, grommet style washer. It _did not_ come from any of the carbs, since I tore, cleaned, and built the carbs (4) back up. No part in the carb matched the washer grommet. There are 4 instances of carbs, and I found only one grommet! Secondly it didnt come up from the chamber from the bottom end. That would mean my piston had to have a hole in it from the start and implies that it took on significant damaged before hand. My compression check is on and consitent across all 4 cylenders! Thirdly It didn't come from the overhead cams, springs, etc. All the valves were intact. I also did a valve adjustment, inspected the topend, and everything was in place.<br /><br />If the conditions where right, washer being just a millimeter smaller, this washer could have slipped past the intake valve, into the engine chamber, and begun smashing the valves, piston, scoring and scratching the cylinder wall, and possibly leaving a boat stranded out to sea! We've taken that boat out 40+ miles with that dang washer in there! <br /><br />I just wanted to comment. Thanks.

 

[rock bottom]

Re: Honda Nightmare

UPDATE:<br />Dennis and I for the first time since getting the motor back lifted the cowling. WE found the nipple so high up that the center non threaded area is clearly higher that what it would take to seal. WE ALSO FOUND THE MOTOR BONE DRY!!!<br />THEY DID NOT ADD OIL TO TEST THE FILTER!!!!AND ONCE AGAIN THE ENGINE IS SEIZED!!!<br />We also found the nipple LOOSE!!! I have a picture of the Honda SELOC repair manual sec 3-11...the nipple is clearly screwed all the way into the block until the center band which is not threaded is flush with the block surface..and is visibly to the eye shorter....my nipples middle band is almost 1/2" above the block...this creates a huuuge gap!!!

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: Honda Nightmare

So guys, are you wanting us to call Honda and lobby a new engine for you?<br /><br />It's extremely unfortunate your Honda woes, I sincerely mean it.<br />However, throughout this thread several responses are answered with your unfortunate events and none contain the $65,000 response;<br />Honda wants a teardown. <br />As a impartial mechanical professional, I'd want documentation as to the result of that teardown.<br />Any litigation would want a teardown and it's documentation.<br />It's in your best interest to do a teardown.<br />(Your Service Manager has ill advised you and has over-quoted the teardown.)<br /><br /><br />

I _noticed_ a washer stuck in the air intake just waiting to fall into the engine chamber. It was just sitting there........ I really _do_ believe that this was a Honda Defect from the factory!

Dang! That is such a far stretch.

The washer was a polished, grommet style washer.

Sounds like one the washers that holds the belt cover on. If your not careful when you remove the cover to do a valve/belt/tentioner adjustment the washer drops down into the intake silencer plenum.<br /><br />A pattern of Honda problems would definately present itself here on this forum. Instead your showing us a pattern in your neighborhood. I'm sorry rock bottom but so far I'm not seeing anything here that would stop me from buying another Honda. <br /><br /><br />Good luck, keep us informed on the outcome.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Honda Nightmare

let me explain the nipple issue and why its bogus again. I will say its a double threaded nipple. one side threads into the block and the filter threads on the other. however both ends are left hand thread. means that if somehow the non threaded portion took up on the filter as the filter was being tightened it would just thread the block portion in like a bolt. if the block portion had right hand threads ,then when the unthreaded portion locked to the filter it would have completly unthreaded the nipple from the block. so going back to the nipple issue. if the sealring on the filter was not damaged and the filter was the correct part number and it tightened up against the machined surface on the block, the nipple is irrelavent. you could put the filter on with zip ties if you can keep the seal tight on the block<br /> but like I say, if the nipple had unthreaded some from the block it would have threaded itself back in once the non threaded portion of the nipple took up on the filter threads. had you actually leaked 5 qts of oil under the hood you would have been sitting in an oil slick at shutdown. that much oil under the hood will drip for days and days out of the cowl drains( trust me on this) that motor is more than capeable of a 20 min run with no oil. especially if all it did for most of that run was idle. there are no hydraulic lifters to click nor anything else that would need oil to work. but dont go just with the nipple theory. it wont fly.like I said, unless the nipple backed off during operation and allowed the filter to become loose its not a nipple issue. all that nipple is a union. and both ends are left hand thread. so if it was loose it would have a tendancy to thread back into the block when spinning the filter on. I will stick with my advice. its time for a teardown. a good tech will find the cause and the valvetrain, crank and pistons will tell the story.

 

[noelm]

Re: Honda Nightmare

HI<br /> I don't confess to be a Honda expert, but, as I think Rodbolt has stated twice, if all the engine oil had leaked/pumped out there would indeed be quite an oil slick or a huge amount of oil would be under the cowling, the owner has yet to confirm that this is the case, he simply said it seized and had no oil, if it is not scattered everywhere then where the hell is it? it would seem that it was never there in the first place! unless he can tell us it was all over the engine and cowling assembly.

 

[rock bottom]

Re: Honda Nightmare

as stated...I was motoring out in pitch black with heavy fog under GPS...there was oil all over underneath the filter and dripping down the sides when i pulled it out of the water...the oil came out under load and pressure.....im not admiring my propwash in the dark...i had boats around me and surf in the harbor mouth...im sure there was a slick. There was enough oil dripping out of the cowling .....these only take a couple of quarts ...not four or five like the 90 hp...<br />RODBOLT...its a right hand thread, it goes on clockwise....

 

[socalboataddict]

Re: Honda Nightmare

after re-reading the threads, i firmly believe that you should take honda to court for a breach of good faith and fair dealing. of course,a tear down will be needed to suppport your version of the facts.<br /><br />regards<br /><br />jon

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Honda Nightmare

my point is both turn to the right to tighten and left to loosen. you say the filter turns clockwise to tighten. the nipple turns clockwise to tighten into the block as well. thats why you will have a problem with the nipple theory in court. you can hold the filter on with a rubber band as long as the seal between the filter canister and the machined block surface does not leak. I have also stated that an external oil supply under 40 psi or so can find the leak. but until someone does some definitive tests as to what leaked, why it leaked and why the alarm did not sound your stuck. I hate to see it but you are. what you have to find is why the seal integrity at the filter failed.

 

[rock bottom]

Re: Honda Nightmare

The dealer MBM threw the filter in question away...i bought it from them too...no way to inspect the filter..another completely unfair circumstance against me...no auto repair outfit would have discarded a part especially under contentious circumstances....i thought they were to provide the customer with thier old parts.

 

[rock bottom]

Re: Honda Nightmare

Rodbolt (btw thanks for everything) ... in several talks, shared pics and two visual inspections mechanics whom i live close to and myself and the SELOC manual all agree that if the non threaded band that the nipple has is the biggest argument in my favor..the band stops the filter from threading down past a certain point. That sets a a parameter in place..if the nipple was all threaded, all the way, the it wouldnt matter how or in it is. The SELOC manual, showing the non threaded band flush with block surface, and the obsevations and experience of the above clearly<br />disagree with Hondas assertion isnt doesnt matter...<br />heres what kills me...the non threaded band is a 1/2" above the block on my motor...a 1/2" is huuuge...usually you would measure a problem of this nature in hundrdeths,thousandths or ten thousandsth of an inch with calipers....not a gaping half an inch with a tape measure..its obvious to anyone with a manual, common sense and what happened here. One day when I had the young tech who first noticed it and two service mgrs in front of me they all said under no circumstances the customer should be able to move that nipple in or out by just taking the filter off. They stated in front of me several times and on the phone that the nipple is not screwed all the way in block from the factory and they doubt there is anything I could have done to create the raised nipple unless it was just plain loose from the factory ( which I obsevered and previously noted)

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Honda Nightmare

why wont ya belive me on the nipple?<br /> you can thread the nipple into the filter and then thread the filter/nipple assy into the block. as long as the seal ring remains in contact with the block and the filter and it does not loosen the nipple is irrelavent. by tossing the old filter it will be hard to say now. it could have had a defective seal or a defective crimp on the cannister. both I have seen before. I dont know why your stuck on the nipple issue but it court it will be relegated to a non-issue rapidly. if your strong enough you can toss the nipple in the creek and hold the filter to the block by hand and it wont leak. the nipple issue is dead. go find the cause of the failure/leakage. but without the original filter it will be difficult. I do find more problems with aftermarket filters not fitting properly than factory ones but I have seen the odd defective ones from about all makers.

 

[Rick-Mi]

Re: Honda Nightmare

1. The motor operated perfectly during it's 20 hour break in as recieved from the dealer.<br /><br />2. A lubrication malfunction did not occur until the owner performed "do it yourself" service.<br /><br />3. In "pitch black" conditions the oil pressure warning light was ignored. If someone was waiting for a buzzer to indicate a lubrication issue, they didn't even read the manual. <br /><br />4. The nipple is irrelevant if the filter is sealed.<br /><br />5. Maximum recovery in small claims court is only a fraction of the value of the motor.<br /><br />6. No attorney is going to take this on a contigency basis, therefore the cost to litigate is going to approach or exceed the cost of the motor.<br /><br />7. Given the facts above, chances of losing in court are substantial.<br /><br />8. Honda outboards set the industry standard for reliability.<br /><br />9. Count this as an EXPENSIVE lesson in double and triple checking "do it yourself" service on an engine under warranty. But, under any circumstances, keep in mind the oil pressure warning light is there for an important reason

 

[timf6]

Re: Honda Nightmare

rock bottom,<br /><br />These guys are right - the problem is not with the nipple. <br /><br />I have worked on many Hondas and have seen several loose nipples. Like rodbolt said, this won't cause the problem you describe. When you tighten the filter, if the filter first hits the non-threaded part of the nipple, further tightening will just drive the nipple into the block. In either case, the filter seal will seat on the block. That, of course, assumes the filter is not defective and the original filter seal was not stuck to the block...<br /><br />I also believe most Hondas have a warning light but not an audible alarm as you said - did you check the manual on this?<br /><br />I am sorry to hear what happened to your motor, though. Honda's are well built and designed, and I have had excellent reliability and service on outboards, cars, dirt bikes, lawn mowers and generators...

 

[Nick on the Bad Habit]

Re: Honda Nightmare

A question to ponder.<br />If for some reason the warning light/ buzzer did not come as stated, wouldn't you look for a cause?<br />It is entirely possible that that the oil pressure sending unit is fauly and or leaking oil and would cause the failure as described.<br />Nick

 

[rock bottom]

Re: Honda Nightmare

Honda Nightmare Revisited<br />Three weeks later despite copies of this thread, detailed letters to the VP level at Honda Marine, I am being told to teardown my motor at my expense<br />- I recd a letter denying my claim but not mentioning any specific or technical reason why.<br />- despite all of the evidence that I put oil in the motor, the witness‘s, the huge plume of oil that is still there all over the crankshaft, despite me buying Honda parts and Honda overpriced oil , despite the observation of leaking oil by their authorized dealer and it leading them to the nipple that they felt was way too far off the block, despite the notes oh the repair tag noting tight filter and oil all over the motor …….Frankly it would take page to list everything I have documented to them…despite all of this they are still saying no. The owner of Monterey bay Marine told me himself, today, that he has never seen Honda deny a claim<br />The factory is playing a game of semantics. The service manager reports a workmanship issue but they wont keep asking him ‘ is there a defect…” He has to say no because the parts are all to spec by design but the workmanship of setting the nipple in place wasn’t done right…and they turn to me and have the gall to tell me..’See there is no defect” and that I didn’t put oil in the motor!!! Then they say ‘Honda Motors can run ten hours with a thimbles worth of oil in them..this is a direct quote from Their tech.<br />I notice some of the guys here are trying to help but are missing some key points like why I don’t see an oil light go on…..Im looking ahead in the dark in a harbor mouth with speeding boats and my nephew. The farthest thing on my mind is the “idiot”light…we all know what that means…having raced Vws and I rebuilt a dozen trick motors ..I know how to change my oil …<br />There was so much oil all over my motor that I brought it to MBM thinking it must be the gear oil…. They thought the same thing until they found the motor seized…this is another piece of damning evidence that Honda wont acknowledge. Its on the service tag. The service mgr at MBM has told me five time as late as yesterday 9-01-05 the he has been rebuffed over and over again in his effort to talk to Honda objectively over what is an obvious and ostensible reason for a catastrophic oil loss….he doesn’t call it “ no oil” he calls it “ oil loss”. His jr tech found the problem yet Honda is turning a blind eye and a deaf ear. He said they will not even address the issue they just say its impossible.<br /><br />I have no choice but to go to court. It is so sad. I am so disheartened by the egos of these folks in their Customer Relations Department. I have done a lot of International Procurement and I do not feel they are the voice of the founders. The Japanese believe in saving face which would mean giving me full benefit of the doubt over an obvious problem. <br />I am ready to prepare thousands of copies of my story for distribution at the Oakland Boat and SF Boat Shows et al.<br />This thread has already generated worried calls from across the state to local Honda dealers, and it should!!!!!<br />I have been so wronged by this company and if I have to go to court , win or lose, the public will get a bigger taste of it than this.<br />This is a blip on their radar screen or less to honor my warranty. Its already budgeted and is a writeoff…to me it’s a ten foot brick wall in front of me , my lifestyle and happiness…I didn’t spend already $15,000 with Honda and thousands of hours on the water and literally baby a motor and be treated like this.<br /><br />I WOULD STRONGLY SUGGESST THAT YOU THINK LONG AND HARD ABOUT WHAT I AM GOING THROUGH BEFORE YOU PURCHASE A HONDA…IF YOU DO GO MONTEREY BAY MARINE WHO ALSO SELLS YAMAHA.

 

[rock bottom]

Re: Honda Nightmare

Here is the link to the Honda Marine webpage.<br />It advertises to the consumer how easy it is to perform your own service on these motors...despite all of my years of experience and diligence they claim I didnt do this right?<br />check this out for yourself...a bunch o hype or is it i am not being treated fairly....<br /> http://www.honda-marine.com/teceas.aspx#