rock bottom
Cadet
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2005
- Messages
- 26
My Honda Nightmare by Richard Leet<br />I purchased a new 2002 BF25 four stroke Honda in late October of 2004 from Voyager Marine in Santa Clara for about $3700. This is my second Honda Motor I had a 90 HP Honda for almost ten years purchases which I logged thousands of hours and did my own servicing even in remote parts of Mexico. I have advocated Hondas for years and am responsible for dozens of indirect purchases from friends.<br />I ran the motor for the required twenty hours and proceeded to do my first service which is in the manual and very easy task. I observed the filter to be unusually loose, which caught my attention. I have raced, built VW motors and I have done hundreds of oil changes without a leak all of my life and I am extremely diligent and thorough in my checking with a rag, running the motor, recheck , levels , rerun again.<br />I performed the service on 6-13-05 with several witness s the night before I was to fish with my nephew.<br />Dennis and I ran the motor and stopped it rechecked the oil levels, wiped under the filter ( no leaks) and restarted the motor and ran it on the hose and in gear for ten minutes.<br />My neighbor Dennis W bought my old C-Dory and 90 hp Honda. Dennis is a top notch mechanic and I have observed and assisted as we tore down the 90 hp down to the block and back together in one day.<br />On about 6-14-05 I readied the boat the next day to fish with my young nephew and left the Moss Landing Harbor in fog, darkness , by GPS, with boats racing around us and breaking surf through the mouth. The motor siezed with five minutes, putting us in a very dangerous predicament.<br />We were towed in, I put the boat on the trailer, and took it to Monterey Bay Marine.<br />I received a call from the Service Manager stating Sir, this is nothing you did. We found the filter tight, yet it was leaking oil. Upon inspection my tech found that the nipple that the oil filter screws into is not screwed all the way into the block from the factory, this is a workmanship issue.<br />I was astounded for it explained the loose filter from the factory and the mysterious loss of oil.<br />I later received a call back from the Service mgr that Honda has come back to him and said that it was within spec and not a defect
<br />I was told that I did not add oil to the motor. I have witnesss and my years of diligence to refute this. <br />My motor went out to sea with oil in it and it lost oil through a improperly placed oil nipple. It seems to have leaked under load ( weight of 2 passengers and gear)<br />Monterey Bay Marine went to bat for me hard, over and over they approached the engineer at Honda to look at the facts, their observations of the leaking filter. The tech from in a months time never once physically inspected the motor. He told that the nipple was in spec!!<br />Even though it was tight and leaking oil from the bottom..this is in spec.<br />This completely defies all common sense. They found a tight leaking filter
but they are being told from Honda that this is not an issue.<br />I was then told they put another filter on and it was tight and didnt leak oil
the motor is seized. It does not turn over
There is no oil pressure to test a problem that needs pressure to see. This is not in any way a conclusive, scientific test of any sort. The nipple should have been loctited in the upper position to check the perceived gap. Screwing another filter on will invariably move the nipple a few turns back in thus bringing it in and out of spec.<br />The tech, the service manager told me the customer should not be able to move the nipple back and forth.<br />This isnt a defect granted..its a workmanship issue from the factory!. I would like to see the inspection process and criteria for this phase of the manufacturing as defined by ISO standards. Part of ISO compliance procedures is the open record for any customer or client to inspect.<br />This should have been caught in the in process QA at Honda
not by seizing and putting my life and my nephews life in danger
.That nipple should not be moveable. It should cast as part of the mounting plate or tack, or laser welded in place
loctited at minimum..this was not done..that is workmanship, period.<br />I went back and forth for almost a month. Honda has disallowed this issue to taken into account.<br />The Service Mgr told me straight..we know what we found, this is not right, this is not the Honda we know
. I had a conference, in person, at MBM with the tech, the service mgr and the office mgr
they all keep saying.. we know what we found
we are being told its not a problem or defect..this isnt right<br />My dealings with Honda is incredibably frustrating
they will not address why a tech can find a tight, leaking oil filter with a raised nipple and a complete loss of oil under mysterious circumstances.<br />They have told me that this is a lack of lubrication
which it is..but not on my part..it leaked out under the oil filter..this is a workmanship issue and expressly covered under my warranty.<br />Honda told me I have to have the motor taken apart at my expense to find a problem. The Service mgr at MBM feels this is a complete waste of time and money to find a mass of broken parts, especially in light of the obvious problem of workmanship. My warranty covers defects and workmanship<br />I feel I have been completely sandbagged by the egos of a few people<br />Honda is deliberately overlooking a huge, extremely tangible piece of information and basically accusing me of not adding oil.<br />It is short of ludicrous to suggest that this issue with the nipple ( the filter was and leaking oil) has no bearing on why my motor lost all of its oil while running. To say that screwing a new filter on and seeing if it leaks with a seized motor and no oil pressure it not conclusive in any way. Of course it wont leak
there is no pressure to push the oil through a fine crack at the base of the oil filter. The assertion that its a sealed system is not true
just look at the mating surface of the filter..it has holes like any filter in the plate
not just one hole at the nipple like this claim would suggest.<br />The argument from the Honda techs is full of holes
.If the service mgr and tech had not found this condition
then I would have no argument.<br />The following facts are irrefutable:<br />- the motor was serviced properly and diligently<br />- the motor went to sea after being tested on the hose and LOST oil.<br />- the oil was checked the morning we went out<br />- MBM found a tangible and credible workmanship issue and has made numerous attempts over thirty days to get what is fair for me..a new motor<br />- the oil filter gap was not properly gauged nor tested due to a seized motor..it is almost dishonest to say they tested it
they just looked at it
.nothing more<br />- The original repair order notes filter tight hence obviously it will feel tight and visually look in place.<br />- Travis the field tech never once took the time in over a month to inspect the motor. The response was he has a big territory..this is exactly why he is there ..to resolve field issues. In light of such circumstances it should have been a huge priority to find out why this motor lost all of its oil. It isnt my problem they are understaffed...its his job to resolve it. <br />Trying to diagnose this over the phone is another example of the less than scientific or tangible way of doing things.<br /><br /><br />-The advice to spend more money to on my part amounts to me paying for an engineering study for a multi billion dollar company<br />The service manager has told it is a complete waste of time and money to tear the engine down for they found an external workmanship issue
yes, not a defect but a clear workmanship issue ( tight filter, leaking oil)<br />-I am out $4000 and Honda wants me to spend another $1000 so they can once again tell me I didnt put oil in my motor. I have completely abandoned by the dealer I bought it from ( Voyager Marine) and by the company I have spent fifteen years advocating in an internet fishing column.<br />I was told by Honda customer service that no judge will rule in my favor without me tearing the motor down..the Service Mgr feels this is waste of time. I feel like I am being completely sandbagged by Honda.
