Historical Facts about Gun Control

Kiwi Phil · May 3, 2004

Re: Historical Facts about Gun Control

I am always a little sceptical of "statistics" as they are some times un balanced in the way they are presented. We know a person who is a cities forensic scientist. They laughingly tell us their "tool cupboards", which hold the "things" people have injured or killed others with, are now full of knives, spades, pieces of timber, steel bars etc, and they see very few hand guns or rifles now-a-days. Every few months we are presented through our National Broadcaster (ABC) with the figures on how many Americans are killed and injured with/by guns per year. They normally say something like, "and that is....per ... minutes". It seems a pretty frightening figure, and on the surface you would think, "thank goodness I don't live there!!!!" But it is a statistic, and is probably not presented in a true context, like ...people per million" or something. As I have said before, if you want a rifle in this country, no worries, you go fill in the forms and buy one. You just can't buy something like an AK47 (or semi or auto). So where is the problem. Cheers Phillip

mellowyellow · May 4, 2004

Re: Historical Facts about Gun Control

compare the gun related murders in detroit and in windsor right accross the border. hundreds in detroit and NONE in windsor??? because of gun control? I highly doubt it. these people have as many guns if not more per-capita than their american niehbors. they may not have any automatic weapons, but how many murders in detroit are committed with those weapons really? probably none. then why?.... you decide for yourself, but I find it a very curious scenario.

18rabbit · May 4, 2004

Re: Historical Facts about Gun Control

Phil there is a lot of violent crime in America. It is the other side of freedom. As we were told over and over and over by our founders, freedom is not freeit comes with a price. Random violent crime remains rare. Most violent crime is committed within a circle of associates, the criminal element, so most Americans are not exposed to it. One statistic that is almost always buried is the use of firearms to prevent or stop crimes. Realistically, it is the companion statistic of the use of firearms to commit crimes. It is something like 10,000 to 1. And in almost every case, the firearm is not discharged, just its presents is enough to stop the crime. The other statistic that isnt is the number of times police have used their weapons in the commission of a crime. Per capita, the police are more violent and abuse the use of their weapons to a much greater degree than the general public doeswe think, but cant know because the FBI refuses to collect this statistic. Some police officers have requested this statistic be kept but management does not want it for obvious reasons. As we learned after WWII, the one thing that stopped Japan from invading the west coast of America is the prolific distribution of firearms. Japan recognized they could not fight a military and an armed citizenry at the same time. That was not the intent of gun ownership in America, just a beneficial side effect. The intent of gun ownership is self-protection and reserving the ability to kill our legislators as needed kind of like Julius Caesarwhen they become too powerful and corrupt, we take em out. There is always some group of people somewhere in America claiming its time.

PW2 · May 4, 2004

Re: Historical Facts about Gun Control

These arguments are so silly. 1st--That somehow, the government is stopped by exterminating its citizens somehow by the armed citizenry. I am sorry to point out that if somehow, for some reason, the government decided to exterminate its citizens, a few pop guns in the hands of the citizens isn't going to stop it. They simply have more and better weapons, I am afraid. 2nd--That somehow the rights of every citizen to own any weapon they want is guaranteed by the constitution. It simply is not true, and there are no ends of restrictions in place now that prove it isn't true. The question is not whether the government has the constitutional authority to limit gun ownership--it has already shown that it has and practices it--The question is what limits will be set by the government. I do find it somewhat ironic that the very people that claim the constitution protects their absolute right to bear arms are the same people that want prayer in schools, and support an amendment that bans gay marriage that is discriminatory and all are surely unconstitutional currently. The constitution seems to be something that can be selectively enforced depending on your political idealogy. As far as anecdotal evidence of violence in society, every society has its problems. Just last week we had an undercover conservation officer killed near Blind River, Ontario, beaten to death with a flashlight by some idiot smelt fisherman by the side of a stream just east of town. What does that tell you? There are idiots in Canada just like there are idiots in the US. As far as the effectivness of gun control, the number of homicides by firearm are dramatically lower in Canada than in the US. I like my sporting arms too, and I own and keep some firearms, but there are reasonable rational limits. There is no sporting reason to have AK-47's and no small game that requires teflon coated "cop-killer" bullets to bring down. And background checks, and a waiting period, are not too much to require, IMO.

Kenneth Brown · May 4, 2004

Re: Historical Facts about Gun Control

PW2 states

There is no sporting reason to have AK-47's and no small game that requires teflon coated "cop-killer" bullets to bring down. And background checks, and a waiting period, are not too much to require, IMO.

Ok, you so say I don't NEED an Ak47. Can I still purchase a rifle to go hunting with? I am assuming that hunting is ok with you since you talk of small game. I think I'll go Elk hunting with my 338 Weatherby Mag which by the way is way more powerful that the 7.62x39 AK47. After that why not just hold up the local bank. Oh wait, I don't have an "assualt rifle", just this puny little 338 mag that shurely won't hurt anyone. Darn laws, if I just had that assualt rifle I could have gotten rich quick.

I too only have 3 guns, and all of them are store bought and registered. Just keep thinking that buddy and take those 3 from me. I don't have anymore, really. What a suprise you just might get

Think about it folks. Its just like getting a haircut. Take a little off the top. Naw, a little more. Thats still not enough, just a little more. Before you know it the barber has taken it all off. All you wanted is for it to look a little better, not all of it gone. Now apply that thought to whats happening with the gun laws.

PW2 · May 5, 2004

Re: Historical Facts about Gun Control

It's a silly argument. First of all, if the goal is to reduce gun related crime and violence, there is plenty of statistical evidence to show which guns cause the most problems, and it is not your rifle, nor is it my 270 Winchester, or my 22 single shot. Of course they are lethal weapons, but they are not the ones that tend to be involved in crime. The goal should be to reduce gun violence (it will be impossible to eliminate it) and there are rational, realistic ways to do it.

Carphunter · May 5, 2004

Re: Historical Facts about Gun Control

Its a silly argument

Its far from a silly argument IMO. Its a very serious argument. These so-called "assault rifles" have never been the weapon used in the majority of crimes. Statistical evidence proves that. I own a Marlin semi-automatic .22. Because it holds 18 shots, its considered an "Assault rifle". Hmmmmmm, thats kinda strange to me. I have said this before, but I think its worth repeating. On and episode of 20/20 a few years back, the reporters interviewed 20 fella's on death row for murder. One of the questions they asked was, "What was your greatest fear about committing your crime"?, Each criminal gave variations of the same answer, and that answer was, they were afraid that their victim might be armed. Thats right, the criminals were afraid of the same thing that scares us about them. PW2, The forefathers put the 2nd Amendment into the constitution for a few reasons. One was to protect this country from the possibility of the Government becoming so corrupt that it could not be stopped. Do I think that would happen?........No, should we have laws that protect us from that happening?...........You better believe it! If something like that ever happened, then the "armed" citizens of this country most assuredly would overthrow that govenment. How? ......By sheer numbers, thats how. It has nothing to do with paranoia. Its about the rights of American citizens to protect themselves from the possibility of something like this happening. I am sure the majority of people that have been murdered in cold blood, thought they were absolutely safe, right before they were murdered. I don't think i'll be struck by lightening, but i'm not gonna walk through an open field with a lightening rod in my hand. Do ya catch my drift? The only people that will abide by the gun laws, are the law abiding people. I wouldn't want to go into a gun fight with a knife. Do ya understand? I am not paranoid at all, but you would be a fool to not be prepared. PW2, I am curious to hear your "Realistic and Rational" ways to reduce gun violence. Please share with us.

Boomyal · May 5, 2004

Re: Historical Facts about Gun Control

Originally posted by Carphunter: PW2, I am curious to hear your "Realistic and Rational" ways to reduce gun violence. Please share with us.

There is only one rational answer, Carphunter, and you already know it. Just outlaw a few more of the undesireable guns.

ps, I told ya'll, in another post, that Plywoody was cloning himself! PW2 ?

mellowyellow · May 5, 2004

Re: Historical Facts about Gun Control

kenziboom hit the nail on the head.... "we need people control, not gun control." the problem here is violence, not gun violence IMHO.

POINTER94 · May 5, 2004

Re: Historical Facts about Gun Control

ps, I told ya'll, in another post, that Plywoody was cloning himself! PW2 ?

That explains why my blood pressure went up and I was just too exhasperated to reply.

Skinnywater · May 5, 2004

Re: Historical Facts about Gun Control

You have obviously never tried to register a gun in California..

I've got a gun safe full of firearms registered in California, and a CCW permit(Carry Conceal Weapon). It isn't easy or cheap, but it isn't Canada or Australia either. I suppose it could be spun that I'm a bit paranoid. Especially since the subjects of Canada so easily accept a repressive socialist government. It not only happend without a shot fired. But many Canadians seem to proudly recommend complacentcy over independence. Evidently it's shown that it's very easy to become a subject instead of a citizen. Repressive governments are one thing. Self rightious masses that would impose anything over independence is another. I'm only able to give advancing examples of my governments intention of repressing rights, freedoms and Socialist reforms for the near future. However, it's blatantly obvious that an example already exists in Canada. It's entirely one thing to lose a Constitutional right, or the ownership of a gun, or any tool. But just think of a people that have lost all sense of will to protect themselves. As well as the courage to be independent. The pride of providing for your own health and well being without help from your government. My first thought is to feel sorry for thier loss. Yet further reflection does yield to a rational paranoia. Truthfully and honestly, I could care less how a Socialist wants to live, weather it be a Canadian, Australian or a misguided American Socialist. It's more of the assaults to my rights and culture by the more smug of the Socialists that cause this paranoia. My guns, Constitution, culture and independence are cherished by me. The rational paranoia is that these valuble and respected items have been demonstrated to be taken underhandedly from me. Before paranoia gets to exciting, perspective amuses me though.

I see this country and on a lesser scale myself, as an independent Shark. Always on the move, feeding and growing. Fiercely and independently taking care of itself. And then there are the Ramoras.......

Carphunter · May 6, 2004

Re: Historical Facts about Gun Control

I hear ya Boomyal.

SCO · May 6, 2004

Re: Historical Facts about Gun Control

WEll, we've got a bunch of ramoras attached all over. THis seems to be a critical period much bigger than the war in Iraq for the future of the USA. How we handle it will chart the future course. Issues like gun control will define whether we are men or mice...not from the macho sense, but from the historical perspective of our independent nature. Brilliantly said Skinnywater. To convey an idea, I present the following anology to those that think this Country is fundamentally broken and needs to be fixed(with gun control, social engineering of all sorts, thought control etc). The analogy occurred in Texas on the Edwards Plateau(I think). THe idea was to kill the predators to have more deer. When done, the deer overpopulated and ate themselves into mass starvation. It's called the law of unintended consequences. Once this Country has been converted to PC land, what are the consequences going to be? What are those consequences going to be for Canada? How safe are the Canadians going to feel when we lay down our arms as the Chinese and others are building theirs? Nature abhors a vacuum. Let's not change the fundamental bedrock that somehow led us to the position of the worlds strongest and most productive country. Hey, even our poverty stricken have cable tv and cell phones.

rolmops · May 6, 2004

Re: Historical Facts about Gun Control

Maybe someone can answer this question. In Great britain,Germany,Holland and Denmark there is strict gun control, so much so, that it is very exceptional for anyone to have a gun.Yet the amount of violent crime in these countries is just a fraction of the violent crime rate in the USA where gun ownership is common place.Could it be that this country with or without guns is just much more violent?

PW2 · May 6, 2004

Re: Historical Facts about Gun Control

You are correct, of course. my name has changed to PW2. FTR, I had computer problems, could no longer log on, and could not get get anyone to amend my user profile to access a new email address, got exasperated, and just reregistered with the different email and a new user name. You have to admit that the "PW2" user name is hardly a very effective ruse, if I had attempted to decieve anyone...If any of the mods want to change it back, that is fine with me--or delete the former account, that is also fine with me. Now for the question. I will never understand why the constitutionality argument is used. That issue has already been decided, as there are specific restrictions in place already, and pretty restictive in some urban locales. Now for the solution. It ought to be percieved in the best interests of sportsmen everywhere to reduce gun violence, and if the NRA was smart, they would work together to change the rules to be percieved as part of the solution, as opposed to part of the problem. There are lots of things that could be done, including making it difficult to become a gun "dealer" make it difficult to purchase a trunk full of handguns in North Carolina and go sell them on the streets of NYC--we can require better records on guns and a telltale signature on handguns at the manufucturer level to identify specific guns that are used in crimes. There are all sorts of things that can be done. IMO, the NRA should be leading the charge, like they do with junior firearm safety classes, to protect the rights of sportsmen to own sporting weapons, by joining the fight against firearms used in crimes, and doing everything possible to reduce it. Instead they have chosen a path that specifically blocks all attempts to achieve this goal. This is an increasingly more urban society than a rural society, and it is icreasingly a society of the haves and have nots. As gun violence increases, and with both increased populations and changed demographics, it most certainly will, at some point in time, there are going to be enough fed up people with this violence that they are going to get together and overwhelm the gun lobby, and they are going to make laws that severely restrict gun ownership. And you won't like them, because the people making these laws will not be gun owners or users, and will view groups like the NRA for the obstructionists they are in this issue. And the constitutionality issue, no matter what your protestations, has already been decided, and it is not been interpreted by the courts the way you interpret it. Hanging your argument on that is like trying to argue that the earth is still flat. The NRA argument will eventually fail at some time in the future, with dire consequences to all gun owners everywhere. It may take ten years, or 20, but it will ultimately fail.

Kenneth Brown · May 6, 2004

Re: Historical Facts about Gun Control

Probably so PW. And they can come get my 3 registered guns when they do. As I said before, take those 3, thats all I got.

18rabbit · May 6, 2004

Re: Historical Facts about Gun Control

And the constitutionality issue, no matter what your protestations, has already been decided, and it is not been interpreted by the courts the way you interpret it.

The courts dont matterthe Court (as in, Supreme Court) does. And that court has steadfast refused to hear any direct gun control issue. What the Court has ruled on is as follows: 1 the Natl Guard is funded from the defense budget and subject to the Commander in Chief, and thus is an extension of the US military. That put to rest any gun control freaks argument that the militia mentioned in the 2nd Amendment was the Natl Guardit isnt! 2- the use of the word people in the Amendments is constant. So the people referred to in the 2nd Amendment are the same people referred to in the 1st amendment. In other word, the people that have a right to free speech and freedom of religion are the same people that have a right to own guns. That is as close as the Supreme Court has come to weighing in on gun control. The Miller case (1934?) was a ruling that allowed the government to ban any weapon that was not in the US militaries arsenal. Gun control freaks dont like to mention this one. Its not really gun controlmore like gun un-control. I read it as my constitutionally protected right to own claymore minds, SAMs, torpedoes, and tactical nuclear devices...and of course, an M-16...or 2...or 10

I believe there is a genuine concern that any move to an outright ban on all firearms will result in a lot of people coming out shooting. I also believe that is why certain firearms are grand fathered in as they become subject to contemporary bans.

SCO · May 6, 2004

Re: Historical Facts about Gun Control

good question rolmops. And I am not going to give a pat answer. I too wonder the best course of action. Could just be that we have a violent society with or without guns. Could be that guns and history created this unique culture good and bad intertwined. Could be that when everyone thinks as an individual you get more violence. Could be that countries like England are so socially repressed that all inappropriate urges are suppressed excefor the occasional mass murderer that starts canabolizing. Could be that without guns we would be less violent. My main objection is that the anti gun movement is part of a broad pc movement that threatens our way of life...if we become too afraid of dying will we lose our will to fight for freedom. Gets down to the price of freedom and the right to self defense...to heck with statistics when you need to be able to protect your and your families lives. There is a great movie out right now, the Alamo, that has not done well, but trust me it is historically accurate mostly ,deep, again a great movie. Everyone that reads this should see the movie and then come back to the discussion.

Boomyal · May 6, 2004

Re: Historical Facts about Gun Control

Originally posted by rolmops: In Great britain,Germany,Holland and Denmark there is strict gun control, so much so, that it is very exceptional for anyone to have a gun.

Ahem! and who was it that came begging for firearms to arm their populace when the Germans were threating to cross the Channel, hmmmm? and who was it that got run over by the Germans like a steam roller in a matter of days, hmmmmm? and who was it in Germany that got rounded up and gassed to death without any chance of resistance, hmmmm? and who was it that the German's did not attack because the population was so well armed that it could have tied up the whole German army in the Alps with horrendous casualties, hmmmmm. It's a right rolmops, get over it. We don't need to justify it just cause we want to hunt. It is justified because a group of the smartest, far thinking (now being discredited and vilified in the public schools) founding fathers had a broad historical perspective on the issue. Something that many choose to ignore today.

Boomyal · May 6, 2004

Re: Historical Facts about Gun Control

Originally posted by Skinnywater: 

You have obviously never tried to register a gun in California..

Click to expand...

I've got a gun safe full of firearms registered in California, and a CCW permit(Carry Conceal Weapon). It isn't easy or cheap, but it isn't Canada or Australia either. I suppose it could be spun that I'm a bit paranoid. Especially since the subjects of Canada so easily accept a repressive socialist government. It not only happend without a shot fired. But many Canadians seem to proudly recommend complacentcy over independence. Evidently it's shown that it's very easy to become a subject instead of a citizen. Repressive governments are one thing. Self rightious masses that would impose anything over independence is another. I'm only able to give advancing examples of my governments intention of repressing rights, freedoms and Socialist reforms for the near future. However, it's blatantly obvious that an example already exists in Canada. It's entirely one thing to lose a Constitutional right, or the ownership of a gun, or any tool. But just think of a people that have lost all sense of will to protect themselves. As well as the courage to be independent. The pride of providing for your own health and well being without help from your government. My first thought is to feel sorry for thier loss. Yet further reflection does yield to a rational paranoia. Truthfully and honestly, I could care less how a Socialist wants to live, weather it be a Canadian, Australian or a misguided American Socialist. It's more of the assaults to my rights and culture by the more smug of the Socialists that cause this paranoia. My guns, Constitution, culture and independence are cherished by me. The rational paranoia is that these valuble and respected items have been demonstrated to be taken underhandedly from me. Before paranoia gets to exciting, perspective amuses me though. I see this country and on a lesser scale myself, as an independent Shark. Always on the move, feeding and growing. Fiercely and independently taking care of itself. And then there are the Ramoras.......

Extra well stated Skinnywater!

Historical Facts about Gun Control

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