Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

[joewithaboat]

Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

Someone will now need to use one of these on the broke off flush one. You might be able to coax the one sticking up out with vise grips and a slide hammer.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=...87_a_7c1021_a_7c317402001_d_317402001_d_11301

It needs to be done with a mill or at the very least a drill press.

Check your pm's

 

[stackz]

Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

as much as I hate to say it, take the head to the machinist and let him remove them the proper way for you

 

[Idlespeedonly]

Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

Did your machine shop friend tell you to use a screw extractor? You got a little mess there. I believe you need to take the heads of (if there not already) and find a different shop to use and go over EVERYTHING you have done up to this point. With the amount of time and money you have in this project it is not worth the risk. When that motor is turning 4000 rpm and something decides to let go you will wish you never started this project. Can you post a picture of the roller tip on the rocker?

 

[greg82255]

Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

I gave up. Took the heads to a machine shop to have them fixed. I got one of the studs completely out and had one left. I got the extractor out using a dremel tool and a diamond bit, and I may have damaged the hole in the boss.. The machine shop said he may have to helicoil the stud boss to get it to work right. I should have them back by Friday.

 

[RogersJetboat454]

Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

I gave up. Took the heads to a machine shop to have them fixed. I got one of the studs completely out and had one left. I got the extractor out using a dremel tool and a diamond bit, and I may have damaged the hole in the boss.. The machine shop said he may have to helicoil the stud boss to get it to work right. I should have them back by Friday.

Who did you bring it to?

 

[greg82255]

Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

Who did you bring it to?

New England Engine and Machine in Peabody. Do you know anything about them? The guys were real nice and said no problem they should be able to fix them, and that they can get it done by Friday. They also said call tomorrow morning to see if the helicoil worked because the guy was going to try it this afternoon. Is it acceptable to helicoil a rocker stud boss?

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

New England Engine and Machine in Peabody. Do you know anything about them? The guys were real nice and said no problem they should be able to fix them, and that they can get it done by Friday. They also said call tomorrow morning to see if the helicoil worked because the guy was going to try it this afternoon. Is it acceptable to helicoil a rocker stud boss?

If done properly it will be the strongest one in the head. No worries!

 

[RogersJetboat454]

Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

New England Engine and Machine in Peabody. Do you know anything about them? The guys were real nice and said no problem they should be able to fix them, and that they can get it done by Friday. They also said call tomorrow morning to see if the helicoil worked because the guy was going to try it this afternoon. Is it acceptable to helicoil a rocker stud boss?

Haven't heard anything bad or good about them. I'm sure you will let us know how well they do. If they seem good, it's another place I can add to my "known good" places.

Don't know what the story is with Golens. Seems like he's had allot of bobbles with your engine. Don't know if it's the help, or his business is getting too big for him to oversee everything that goes out the door. As I told you in the PM, when he did my machine work he was still working out of the air craft hanger at Hanscom AFB. This was about in 2001-2002. Since then his engines have been featured in both Chevy and Jeep mags, plus he got the bigger shop. I'm reading about guys in car forums that live in CA that are ordering engines from him. Guess he's no longer a small-time local guy.

As Joe said, a helicoil can actually be an asset. Helicoils are used to beef up the rocker stud threads in aluminum heads as well.

 

[greg82255]

Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

Haven't heard anything bad or good about them. I'm sure you will let us know how well they do. If they seem good, it's another place I can add to my "known good" places.

Don't know what the story is with Golens. Seems like he's had allot of bobbles with your engine. Don't know if it's the help, or his business is getting too big for him to oversee everything that goes out the door. As I told you in the PM, when he did my machine work he was still working out of the air craft hanger at Hanscom AFB. This was about in 2001-2002. Since then his engines have been featured in both Chevy and Jeep mags, plus he got the bigger shop. I'm reading about guys in car forums that live in CA that are ordering engines from him. Guess he's no longer a small-time local guy.

As Joe said, a helicoil can actually be an asset. Helicoils are used to beef up the rocker stud threads in aluminum heads as well.

Chad has a big shop now and he said he tries to limit his work to about 25 projects a month, but as I kept coming back he kept telling me how overwhelmingly busy they had gotten, so he may be up and over that limit. He has something like a 5 week waiting list for a complete engine, so word has definitely gotten out that they do good work. I highly doubt he has the time to oversee every project that gets done, but on the other hand he did on several occasions take a lot of time to talk with me and help me through the project. I brought him back the short block that I built and he spent over 2 hours with me going over it and explaining what to do the rest of the way.

On the other hand, I don't think he knows much about marine engines. He also told me that I don't need a special distributor gear, that I don't need a special fuel pump pushrod, and spent a while trying to make the OEM roller cam work in a block that needed a retro-fit. He also didn't say anything about needing threaded rocker studs, which would have been an opportunity for him to make some more $. He also put plugs in the 2 holes in the bottom of the block where the brass drain plugs are supposed to go - I haven't taken those out yet.

It seems like he does only high performance engines and parts, so he always works with roller blocks and cams and always uses high performance parts, so the stuff that deals with pre-roller (including the special dist gear and fuel pump rod) isn't always on his mind. He is still an excellent machinist though and I am very happy with how helpful he has been.

On another note, I called the other machine shop about my heads today and the guy was just setting them up on their machine as I called. I should have an update by the end of the day today.

 

[greg82255]

Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

Got the heads back today. They look awesome. The guy machined .350 inches off the bosses, tapped all the holes, and put thread sealer on the studs and torqued them for me. All I have to do is bolt them on now. Definitely adding this machine shop to the list of good ones in my area.

 

[greg82255]

Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

Now that I have the heads back I tried to install one today and measure for my push rod length. As shown in the picture below, I installed a light weight test spring that wouldn't collapse the lifter, and I started to try different push rod lengths.

After testing a bunch of different lengths I am positive that 7.200" is the length that I need, but that presents a slight problem. The rocker arm actually needs to sit a little bit lower than the nut will go. As you can see in the next picture, the nut cannot tighten anymore but there are still threads left on the stud, and I need the nut to come down about 1/8" to hold the rocker exactly where it needs to be. I'd rather not cut the studs, so can I just add a small stainless or grade 8 washer between the nut and the rocker arm? Or is there another way to solve this problem?

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

So if you set it currently the way it needs to be the set screw will sit out of the poly lock a little ?? As long as its not above the edges it is OK. Can you post a pic of it set at the correct height.
I guess you might need the boss cut down a bit more. That's why they make so many different lengths, remember that catalog.
I would not recommend it cause your doing a nice build here, but i have cut the tops of the studs before in a lathe. The correct thing to do is prob cut the bosses down a bit more.
post some pics of the lock showing the set screw position if you can.

OH and very happy the heads were able to be fixed! You will be much better off with screw in studs for your combo!

 

[greg82255]

Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

So if you set it currently the way it needs to be the set screw will sit out of the poly lock a little ?? As long as its not above the edges it is OK. Can you post a pic of it set at the correct height.
I guess you might need the boss cut down a bit more. That's why they make so many different lengths, remember that catalog.
I would not recommend it cause your doing a nice build here, but i have cut the tops of the studs before in a lathe. The correct thing to do is prob cut the bosses down a bit more.
post some pics of the lock showing the set screw position if you can.

OH and very happy the heads were able to be fixed! You will be much better off with screw in studs for your combo!

Joe, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the set screw sitting out of the poly lock a little. I never actually tested the adjustable pushrod at 7.200" because I couldn't tighten the nut enough to get it to zero lash. The lowest setting I was able to test it at and still get to zero lash was 7.300," and the line I got on the valve after turning the engine over a few times was slightly off center - which made me think that 7.200" will be the perfect length. I agree that machining the bosses further would definitely work, but that would require taking the heads apart again, taking the studs out, machining the bosses, cleaning them, and putting everything back together. If it's the only to do it then I guess I have to, but maybe there is an alternative? I'm going to look in that catalog and see if there are any shorter studs with the same thread pattern. That could be an easy 20 or $30 fix.

Just out of curiosity, why couldn't I just put a washer between the rocker and the nut? It would give me that extra 1/8" I need.

 

[John_S]

Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

Greg,

Call and discuss with the head shop, before resorting to bolt replacement or inserting washers.

Did they drill out the pushrod hole? It wasn't mentioned, but suspect you did have it done.


PS: I incorrectly stated that the Black Scorpion had pressed in studs. After reviewing again, it definitly has screw-in.

 

[greg82255]

Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

I actually had drilled the pushrod holes myself before I took the heads to the shop, so they're all done. I'll call the head shop and see what they recommend, although the guy did tell me to just buy a stock length hardened pushrod and forget about it. I don't think he knew I was using the taller retro fit roller lifters. I'll tell him and see what he says.

I asked about the washers because I've never heard of anyone doing it before, and wanted to know if some builders consider it an acceptable option. I think that would be a last resort.

Joe,

Call and discuss with the head shop, before resorting to bolt replacement or inserting washers.

Did they drill out the pushrod hole? It wasn't mentioned, but suspect you did have it done.


PS: I incorrectly stated that the Black Scorpion had pressed in studs. After reviewing again, it definitly has screw-in.

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

Joe, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the set screw sitting out of the poly lock a little. I never actually tested the adjustable pushrod at 7.200" because I couldn't tighten the nut enough to get it to zero lash. The lowest setting I was able to test it at and still get to zero lash was 7.300," and the line I got on the valve after turning the engine over a few times was slightly off center - which made me think that 7.200" will be the perfect length. I agree that machining the bosses further would definitely work, but that would require taking the heads apart again, taking the studs out, machining the bosses, cleaning them, and putting everything back together. If it's the only to do it then I guess I have to, but maybe there is an alternative? I'm going to look in that catalog and see if there are any shorter studs with the same thread pattern. That could be an easy 20 or $30 fix.

Just out of curiosity, why couldn't I just put a washer between the rocker and the nut? It would give me that extra 1/8" I need.

The set screw set at its max height in the poly lock limits the depth before you run out of thread on the stud is what i thought you were saying. As to the washer under the poly lock... I don't know if it would be a problem! Those parts are really moving at 6,000 rpm. I'm not sure but it might induce some unwanted vibration. Check out This video, You tube is full of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Vz4mjPKXJ0&feature=related

I guess i would call the rocker arm company tech line and ask them, or maybe ARP. They both do their own R&D. I'm guessing if it were an appropriate option you would see the proper washer sets for sale in the catalog's and i never have. Worth a call.

Oh and make sure you check the retainer to rocker clearance. You should be fine those springs don't look to be oversize OD but you should always check. Also the bottom of the retainer and top of the guide seal at max lift. I always document all of the clearances etc and keep a build log for future reference.

 

[greg82255]

Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

The set screw set at its max height in the poly lock limits the depth before you run out of thread on the stud is what i thought you were saying. As to the washer under the poly lock... I don't know if it would be a problem! Those parts are really moving at 6,000 rpm. I'm not sure but it might induce some unwanted vibration. Check out This video, You tube is full of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Vz4mjPKXJ0&feature=related

I guess i would call the rocker arm company tech line and ask them, or maybe ARP. They both do their own R&D. I'm guessing if it were an appropriate option you would see the proper washer sets for sale in the catalog's and i never have. Worth a call.

Oh and make sure you check the retainer to rocker clearance. You should be fine those springs don't look to be oversize OD but you should always check. Also the bottom of the retainer and top of the guide seal at max lift. I always document all of the clearances etc and keep a build log for future reference.

Ok, that was a novice mistake.. I didn't realize there was a set screw inside the rocker nut. I backed it out a few turns and the nut was able to tighten all the way without any problems. I measured for pushrods again, and I got 7.200." Thanks Joe

 

[greg82255]

Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

I'll be sure to check the retainer to rocker clearance today, as well as the retainer to valve seal. I know the valve guides were cut down to accept the extra lift but I'll check the clearance just to make sure.

Time to order pushrods.. I'm looking at Comp Cams Hi-Tech or Comp Cams Magnum Pushrods. The magnum are $100, the Hi-tech are $136. Manley also sells a set for $147. I assume the difference is in the level of hardening. Is it worth it to get the more expensive ones?

Also, I'm going to order a distributor gear at the same time so I don't have to pay a processing fee twice. The bronze gear is about $45 and the composite gear is $115. Is there a significant advantage to getting the composite gear or can I get away with the bronze?

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

I'll be sure to check the retainer to rocker clearance today, as well as the retainer to valve seal. I know the valve guides were cut down to accept the extra lift but I'll check the clearance just to make sure.

Time to order pushrods.. I'm looking at Comp Cams Hi-Tech or Comp Cams Magnum Pushrods. The magnum are $100, the Hi-tech are $136. Manley also sells a set for $147. I assume the difference is in the level of hardening. Is it worth it to get the more expensive ones?

Also, I'm going to order a distributor gear at the same time so I don't have to pay a processing fee twice. The bronze gear is about $45 and the composite gear is $115. Is there a significant advantage to getting the composite gear or can I get away with the bronze?

I looked at both of the comp push rods... The difference seems to be that the Hi tecs are OD ground so they cost more. At your RPM you would be fine with the cheaper one. I didn't look at the Manley. I would go for the comp magnums, that would keep most all the parts from the same manufacturer.
As to the dist. gear thing I have personally changed more than one, on other peoples engines, worn out feathered edge standard gear that put an awful lot of metal in the engines they were on, so i know they can fail if used on steel roller cams. It seems your machinist thinks different. I myself have never run anything but a brass/bronze gear on roller cams, that were mine, and have never had any trouble. The composite is newer to the market and i have never actually used one, so other than seeing adds in the magazines/catalog's I know nothing about them.

 

[greg82255]

Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

I looked at both of the comp push rods... The difference seems to be that the Hi tecs are OD ground so they cost more. At your RPM you would be fine with the cheaper one. I didn't look at the Manley. I would go for the comp magnums, that would keep most all the parts from the same manufacturer.
As to the dist. gear thing I have personally changed more than one, on other peoples engines, worn out feathered edge standard gear that put an awful lot of metal in the engines they were on, so i know they can fail if used on steel roller cams. It seems your machinist thinks different. I myself have never run anything but a brass/bronze gear on roller cams, that were mine, and have never had any trouble. The composite is newer to the market and i have never actually used one, so other than seeing adds in the magazines/catalog's I know nothing about them.

Alright, magnum pushrods it is. I agree I should probably go with comp cams to keep mostly everything the same. I've done some research and lots of people say that they run bronze distributor gears without any trouble. They also seem to say the same thing you did about the composite gears - that they don't know much about them because they're so new. I may call Comp Cams and ask before I order a gear but I think bronze is going to be it. Now I just need to take out the caliper and measure the distributor shaft - it appears that they have either .491" or .500" and I'm not sure which one I have.