Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

FreeBeeTony

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Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

Is it possible you're hearing the exhaust flapper on that side?

Just a thought.............
 

greg82255

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Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

Is it possible you're hearing the exhaust flapper on that side?

Just a thought.............

I wish.. unfortunately its very distinctly coming from the valve train.

No need to re torque those gaskets.

The noise you hear could be the lifter bottoming out if they are too tight.

When you set them, not running, how exactly did you do it.

I loosened the rocker nut/poly lock, spun the pushrod in my hand and slowly tightened the nut until it became harder to spin the pushrod. Then I moved the rocker around up and down left and right to feel for any play (by move, i mean just wiggled it around to see if there was any play - there often wasn't), and twisted the pushrod again. Sometimes after moving the rocker the pushrod would gain some extra clearance and spin freely again, so I would again spin it and tighten the rocker nut until i felt it bind. I assumed that was zero lash. Then I added 1/2 turn and locked the poly lock.
 

greg82255

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Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

I should add that before I tightened any nuts, I turned the engine over until the exhaust valve just started to open, then adjusted the intake valve. To adjust the exhaust valve, I turned the engine over until the intake valve opened and fully closed, then adjusted the exhaust valve.
 

John_S

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Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

I wish.. unfortunately its very distinctly coming from the valve train.



I loosened the rocker nut/poly lock, spun the pushrod in my hand and slowly tightened the nut until it became harder to spin the pushrod. Then I moved the rocker around up and down left and right to feel for any play (by move, i mean just wiggled it around to see if there was any play - there often wasn't), and twisted the pushrod again. Sometimes after moving the rocker the pushrod would gain some extra clearance and spin freely again, so I would again spin it and tighten the rocker nut until i felt it bind. I assumed that was zero lash. Then I added 1/2 turn and locked the poly lock.

To me, even when the engine is "dry" the spinning method was very subjective. Having oil on the pivot points makes it even harder. I used a pushrod up/down method to find zero. Jiggled the push rod up and down, and turned rocker nut until i couldn't jiggle no more. You only do each rocker once. If you are going back to this method, you must loosen all rockers to above the zero point and turn the engine over to re-pressurize the lifters.

Even trying to follow this, I found a couple of rockers that were too tight when I re-did with the hot method. I am suspecting you have something else going on. The hot method "should" be obvious when above zero lash. A too tight lifter shouldn't make noise. If lifter is bottomed, then would expect more of a pounding sound, until the push rod bent or rocker broke.

PS: Way back in your thread, I think you discussed something with shimming the rockers or polylocks??? I'm too lazy to search back through the 17 pages, could you refresh my memory on what that was, and what the resolution was? Or maybe I have someone elses issue cross-linked in my memory. ;)
 

greg82255

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Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

To me, even when the engine is "dry" the spinning method was very subjective. Having oil on the pivot points makes it even harder. I used a pushrod up/down method to find zero. Jiggled the push rod up and down, and turned rocker nut until i couldn't jiggle no more. You only do each rocker once. If you are going back to this method, you must loosen all rockers to above the zero point and turn the engine over to re-pressurize the lifters.

Even trying to follow this, I found a couple of rockers that were too tight when I re-did with the hot method. I am suspecting you have something else going on. The hot method "should" be obvious when above zero lash. A too tight lifter shouldn't make noise. If lifter is bottomed, then would expect more of a pounding sound, until the push rod bent or rocker broke.

PS: Way back in your thread, I think you discussed something with shimming the rockers or polylocks??? I'm too lazy to search back through the 17 pages, could you refresh my memory on what that was, and what the resolution was? Or maybe I have someone elses issue cross-linked in my memory. ;)

I didn't end up using a shim - I hadn't yet realized that the poly locks could be loosened and was looking for another way to tighten the nuts. I am also now worried something else is going on. What else could be causing that sound? If roller rockers are generally loud anyways and the engine runs fine, could it just be nothing to worry about?
 

John_S

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Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

If roller rockers are generally loud anyways and the engine runs fine, could it just be nothing to worry about?

Well, that wouldn't explain why one bank is significantly louder than the other.
 

Alwhite00

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Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

I have never had really great results setting the rockers dry - It get you close but I usually get it running and ajust them one at a time - Loosen them till they start clicking, Tighten till it stops and then maybe 1/4 turn. Can be a little messy but a valve cover cut in half works good do divert the oil and whatever do, do don't rev it up.

LK
 

Tail_Gunner

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Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

Setting dry is just a starting point..presetup if you will. Almost every time you will have to do some live adjusting..Due to the orignal builders cam error it makes me wonder if the heads were cut for the increased lift and coil bind is occuring. But he shimmed up the springs....Knowing the install height would take a lot out the equation.
 

greg82255

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Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

Setting dry is just a starting point..presetup if you will. Almost every time you will have to do some live adjusting..Due to the orignal builders cam error it makes me wonder if the heads were cut for the increased lift and coil bind is occuring. But he shimmed up the springs....Knowing the install height would take a lot out the equation.

I had a second machinist look at the heads and install the screw in rocker studs, and he told me that the heads had been machined for the extra valve lift. He also disassembled them and set them up again with shims. I don't think that coil bind would occur on one bank and not the other?
 

pennyduke

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Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

Greg, Did you buy a complete Rotating Assmbely for your bottom end? If so, do you have the part number. I'm doing a similar Stroker build and having trouble choosing one. Thanks
 

Tail_Gunner

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Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

I had a second machinist look at the heads and install the screw in rocker studs, and he told me that the heads had been machined for the extra valve lift. He also disassembled them and set them up again with shims. I don't think that coil bind would occur on one bank and not the other?

Neither do i but it was one area of confusion. The bank that is clicking is the same side that i thought the steam was huffing or being sucked back in....As long as you adjusted the rockers live or running you have some kind of a mech problem. You can alway's remove the valve cover the non working area with a rag and as the motor runs at low rpm take your hand and twist each rod looking for bind. Note that can be dangerous...No long sleeves...no jewlery watches and plan each move..be careful....Hmm are you sure your firing order is right...Now wouldnt that be something..
 

greg82255

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Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

Neither do i but it was one area of confusion. The bank that is clicking is the same side that i thought the steam was huffing or being sucked back in....As long as you adjusted the rockers live or running you have some kind of a mech problem. You can alway's remove the valve cover the non working area with a rag and as the motor runs at low rpm take your hand and twist each rod looking for bind. Note that can be dangerous...No long sleeves...no jewlery watches and plan each move..be careful....Hmm are you sure your firing order is right...Now wouldnt that be something..

I'm not positive the firing order is right but I don't think it would run so smooth (other than the click) if it were wrong. I'll double check tomorrow. I talked to a mechanic today and he said it could be a collapsed or sticky lifter. Is there any way to check for that without taking the intake off?

After doing some research in car forums, I've seen that running a heavier weight oil like 20w50 (exactly what I was running for break-in oil) can cause the lifters to stick and could result in a ticking noise. Some people observed less of a tick after switching to 10w40 or 10w30. I just changed the oil to a 40 weight synthetic so maybe that will make a difference. Everything is worth a try at this point. I'm also going to replace the exhaust manifold gasket and make sure there are no small leaks.
 

USNChief

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Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

Greg, would you please list the parts that you bought for you 383 project? I spoke to some of my friends, (two are retired mechanics) and they had some thoughts but need to know what you are using. Did you buy a Haynes manual for your 350? I would recommend not to adjust your rocker arms while the engine is running. Just go by the spec's and tighten/loosen each one accordingly. I believe it was John that said something about your lifters. I got a gut feeling that is it.

Just to give you a sneak preview of what you will have, my 383 dyno showed that I have 387 hp and 427 foot pounds of torque.

If you like, I can refer you to the Vette site that I'm at and tell you who to talk to about your engine. It that site and those folks who helped me with my build.

Hang in there, it is well worth the wait. :cool:
 

joewithaboat

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Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

Greg,

It is not a big deal!

You have gotten past the hardest part for most people. Getting it close enough to run.

20w50 is not heavy oil, it has the properties of 20w oil when cold, 50 w when hot. Save your first oil filter you may want to cut it open.

Change the exhaust gasket!! I thought you did that already.

Look inside the springs to see if a seal came loose, what kind of seals are they. Some have a metal strap on the top that will clack if it is hitting the retainer.
Look close at the rocker bodies to make sure they are not hitting the retainers or polylocks at full open or full close.

Double & triple check that you have the engine/distributor wired correctly. Sometimes they will run amazingly well with just two wires switched around.

I would stop looking for magic solutions online. Your getting bad advice on setting the lifters. Crank the darn thing up and run through them from crying out loud.

For those who insist on setting them while not running, there is only one way to do so and get the setting as accurate as while running and i haven't seen a single person get it yet. The lifter must be on the heel of the lobe! 360deg of crank revolution after full open or you can run thru in the correct order and set one every 45deg. That's why nice balance'rs have marks already on them! And this still doesn't account for internal bleed rate differences from lifter to lifter. Because a hyd lifter has from .020 to .080 travel in it is why you can use various methods and get it close enough to run.

If the noise persists, pay someone who knows what they are doing to listen to it... In person!!

Then it might be time to tear into it.

Good luck!
 

greg82255

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Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

Greg, would you please list the parts that you bought for you 383 project? I spoke to some of my friends, (two are retired mechanics) and they had some thoughts but need to know what you are using. Did you buy a Haynes manual for your 350? I would recommend not to adjust your rocker arms while the engine is running. Just go by the spec's and tighten/loosen each one accordingly. I believe it was John that said something about your lifters. I got a gut feeling that is it.

Just to give you a sneak preview of what you will have, my 383 dyno showed that I have 387 hp and 427 foot pounds of torque.

If you like, I can refer you to the Vette site that I'm at and tell you who to talk to about your engine. It that site and those folks who helped me with my build.

Hang in there, it is well worth the wait. :cool:

I have the part #s buried somewhere and can get them if you would like, but here is basically what I used. Scat 383 cast crank, Scat 4340 I-beam forged rods, Speed Pro 4.030 hypereutectic pistons, Hastings moly rings, comp cams xm 270 hr cam .495/.503 218/226 112 LSA, Comp Cams retro-fit hydraulic roller lifters, Comp Cams hardened pushrods 7.200" (measured for the right size with an adjustable pushrod), Summit Racing 1.6 full roller self-aligning rockers, not sure of the spring type - the builder picked them but they put out 106-108 lbs of pressure each - I had another shop look at the heads later and they had to measure them. Comp cams hardened retainers, stainless steel valves. Vortec heads 906 casting, 1986 350 block bored .030 over. Air gap intake, edelbrock 1410 carb, delco voyager ignition, Stainless marine exhaust. Not sure what main and rod bearings were used - again the builder picked them and set all the clearances for me.


Greg,

It is not a big deal!

You have gotten past the hardest part for most people. Getting it close enough to run.

20w50 is not heavy oil, it has the properties of 20w oil when cold, 50 w when hot. Save your first oil filter you may want to cut it open.

Change the exhaust gasket!! I thought you did that already.

Look inside the springs to see if a seal came loose, what kind of seals are they. Some have a metal strap on the top that will clack if it is hitting the retainer.
Look close at the rocker bodies to make sure they are not hitting the retainers or polylocks at full open or full close.

Double & triple check that you have the engine/distributor wired correctly. Sometimes they will run amazingly well with just two wires switched around.

I would stop looking for magic solutions online. Your getting bad advice on setting the lifters. Crank the darn thing up and run through them from crying out loud.

For those who insist on setting them while not running, there is only one way to do so and get the setting as accurate as while running and i haven't seen a single person get it yet. The lifter must be on the heel of the lobe! 360deg of crank revolution after full open or you can run thru in the correct order and set one every 45deg. That's why nice balance'rs have marks already on them! And this still doesn't account for internal bleed rate differences from lifter to lifter. Because a hyd lifter has from .020 to .080 travel in it is why you can use various methods and get it close enough to run.

If the noise persists, pay someone who knows what they are doing to listen to it... In person!!

Then it might be time to tear into it.

Good luck!

I will definitely go double and triple check the wiring. Could a switched wire cause a click like that? I'm not sure what kind of seals were used - the builder put them in but I'll check and see if they have a metal strap on top and if any came loose. I'll also carefully look and see if the rockers hit the retainers or polylocks.
I have tried to use the running method and agree that it will work well, it's just that whatever is clicking is so loud that I can't tell when the rocker I am adjusting starts to make noise. Once I figure this out, I'll use the running method for adjusting the rockers. I'm even going to order that special tool from comp cams to do it.

I also have the old oil filter - what would I be looking for if I cut it open?
 

joewithaboat

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Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

I also have the old oil filter - what would I be looking for if I cut it open?

I wouldn't worry yet, the noise sounds like it is at valve-train speed, not crank.

If it spun a bearing it will have "Babbitt" off of the bearing face in it, usually.

Be careful cutting it open, easy to cut yourself. I use a zip type cut off wheel in a hand held 1/4 inch rotary air tool.
 

greg82255

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Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

Greg when you measured your push rod length where the lifters pressurized....Did you order longer push rods..Std roller length is 7.200 (Push Rod)

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=524489&page=6

Nope...cant see any errors

I looked back into my past orders from summit racing today, and I apparently ordered 7.150" pushrods, which doesn't make sense. I was positive I had/needed 7.200 rods. I am also pretty sure the lifters were full of oil when I measured. One of the videos I watched said to put the lifters in oil for a few hours before putting them in the engine, which also means that I initially adjusted the lifters when they were full of oil.... I guess that was a bad idea. If the rod length was off by .050" could that be the problem? Still doesn't explain the noise in one bank and not the other. I didn't get to work on the engine today so I'm going to get on it tomorrow and fix everything we discussed earlier just to eliminate the possibility of an exhaust leak or crossed wire etc.
 

greg82255

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Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

Well I found something interesting today. I pulled all of the rockers off the engine this afternoon and noticed that all the valve tips had a mark from where the roller tip on the rockers were contacting them. On the 1-3-5-7 bank, all of the marks were directly in the center of the valve, indicating that the 7.150" pushrods were the correct length. However on the 2-4-6-8 bank, the marks were all off center, closer to the exhaust ports, indicating that the pushrods on that bank were too long. It appears that I need a shorter pushrod on the 2-4-6-8 bank, which could explain the ticking. Is it common for engines to have 2 different length pushrods on different banks? Maybe one of the decks or heads was milled slightly more than the other? Either way this could be the problem. I replaced the exhaust gasket, double and triple checked the firing order, and checked all the valve seals and found nothing visibly wrong, and the ticking did not go away.
 

Scott Danforth

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Re: Here We Go: My 383 Stroker Winter Project

Is it common for engines to have 2 different length pushrods on different banks?
NO

Maybe one of the decks or heads was milled slightly more than the other? Either way this could be the problem.
Talk to your machinist. you may need to bring them the boat/motor.
 
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